Improper vent install burns down Maine apt house

[DMKNLD]

A rural Maine structure fire in the town I use to live in was fully involved when firefighters got on scene late last night, displacing 21 occupants, including 10 children. Apparently the owner installed a new pellet boiler vent without using a thimble, which ignited the exterior wall and siding. Amazing that no one was killed or seriously injured, as old multiple room farmhouses like this with balloon wall construction can be death traps in a fast spreading structure fire.

With no hydrants or near by water source to fight it, by the time FF's arrived there wasn't much more they could do beyond 'saving the foundation'. The middle picture at the bottom of the news link is a good illustration of the dump tank system rural FD's typically have to use in areas without hydrants, where they set up a shuttle to dump water from tankers into a large portable dump tank that is then used to fight the fire. Not a quick way to 'get the wet stuff on the hot stuff', unfortunately.

Luckily no one was hurt. Needless to say, pellet stove install codes requiring thimbles and minimum combustible clearances certainly have their place.

(broken link removed to http://www.sunjournal.com/news/oxford-hills/2014/09/21/late-night-fire-destroys-home-west-paris/1592037)

 

[Pellet-King]

House doesn't look to big, 21 people living in that?, should of used the existing chimney,only thing left standing.

 

[alternativeheat]

House doesn't look to big, 21 people living in that?, should of used the existing chimney,only thing left standing.

Ya or a thimble.

 

[SmokeyTheBear]

I hate to say this but there will be more. Lots of units get installed incorrectly, fire isn't something to cheap out on.

 

[Jason845845]

Does the outside of the vent even get hot enough to light something off? I dont think mine gets a whole lot over 200*

 

[mepellet]

Does the outside of the vent even get hot enough to light something off? I dont think mine gets a whole lot over 200*

Depends on venting type. My venting temperature is typically not that much warmer than whatever the outdoor temperature is and the oak also never frosts up. Two more reasons why I like Selkirk DT.

 

[mepellet]

..., fire isn't something to cheap out on.

Ain't that the truth!

 

[SmokeyTheBear]

Does the outside of the vent even get hot enough to light something off? I dont think mine gets a whole lot over 200*

The outside of a pellet stove vent can get a lot hotter than 200 as you can have a creosote fire inside that vent. Normal operation is not assumed to always be the case when installation requirements are listed.

You need to read up on pyrolysis which results in the lowering of the ignition point of combustible materials exposed to prolonged high temperatures less than their normal ignition temperature.

 

[Jason845845]

The outside of a pellet stove vent can get a lot hotter than 200 as you can have a creosote fire inside that vent. Normal operation is not assumed to always be the case when installation requirements are listed.

You need to read up on pyrolysis which results in the lowering of the ignition point of combustible materials exposed to prolonged high temperatures less than their normal ignition temperature.

Yes sir. Will do.

 

[Bioburner]

The outside of a pellet stove vent can get a lot hotter than 200 as you can have a creosote fire inside that vent. Normal operation is not assumed to always be the case when installation requirements are listed.

You need to read up on pyrolysis which results in the lowering of the ignition point of combustible materials exposed to prolonged high temperatures less than their normal ignition temperature.

Have a stove that has a bad start or two before ignition and very high fuel load and can get a fire going out the vent. Or as stated in the other thread on this incident may have used a piece of ducting. I had a individual admit to using a PVC vent pipe.

 

[SmokeyTheBear]

A pellet stove is first and foremost a wood burning stove. If it is not installed correctly what might normally be a non concern can end costing you far more than you can afford.

Burning wood creates creosote, and like a wood stove you need to keep the venting clean. The generation of creosote is normally kept at bay by the higher burn temperatures and low moisture content of pellets but is still produced. As long as the vent is hot enough it exits the system instead of condensing in the vent system. Part of the reason the outside of a pellet stove vent is relatively cool is the insulation provided by the double wall venting and part by the forced air flow and the remaining part by the overall rate of wood combustion.

The thimble is a device that provides additional protection where the vent has to pass through combustible materials it is a safety device.

If the venting isn't kept clean on a regular basis, the fire will burn cooler and produce more creosote that condenses in the vent, then all it takes a slightly hotter fire to touch it off, once that happens that vent will glow and those combustibles that would have been protected by a thimble will ignite.

 

[SmokeyTheBear]

Then we have the case of a joint in the wall or joints not properly attached (favorite spot for that is in the adapter area).

The list goes on and on.

 

[SmokeyTheBear]

Have a stove that has a bad start or two before ignition and very high fuel load and can get a fire going out the vent. Or as stated in the other thread on this incident may have used a piece of ducting. I had a individual admit to using a PVC vent pipe.

The ole but I burned that way all last season and I didn't notice the PVC was collapsing routine. There are pictures of at least one of these somewhere in this section of the site.

My stove gives up at one try on the starting, others don't evidently or the user tries again without checking the fuel load in the burn pot.

 

[Stevekng]

A rural Maine structure fire in the town I use to live in was fully involved when firefighters got on scene late last night, displacing 21 occupants, including multiple small children. Apparently the owner installed a new pellet boiler vent without using a thimble, which ignited the exterior wall and siding. Amazing that no one was killed or seriously injured, as old multiple room farmhouses like this with balloon wall construction can be death traps in a fast spreading structure fire.

With no hydrants or near by water source to fight it, by the time FF's arrived there wasn't much more they could do beyond 'saving the foundation'. The middle picture at the bottom of the news link is a good illustration of the dump tank system rural FD's typically have to use in areas without hydrants, where they set up a shuttle to dump water from tankers into a large portable dump tank that is then used to fight the fire. Not a quick way to 'get the wet stuff on the hot stuff', unfortunately.

Luckily no one was hurt. Needless to say, pellet stove install codes requiring thimbles and minimum combustible clearances certainly have their place.

(broken link removed to http://www.sunjournal.com/news/oxford-hills/2014/09/21/late-night-fire-destroys-home-west-paris/1592037)

A pellet stove or boiler should be installed by a professional. If this particular one was installed by a professional (would be hard to believe) then criminal charges should be brought. If the owner had a dubber install it, or did it himself, then the criminal charges should be brought. I would have to think that there would be state codes in the case of a rental property.

 

[Bioburner]

A pellet stove or boiler should be installed by a professional. If this particular one was installed by a professional (would be hard to believe) then criminal charges should be brought. If the owner had a dubber install it, or did it himself, then the criminal charges should be brought. I would have to think that there would be state codes in the case of a rental property.

Lots of codes on multifamily rental properties. Almost a whole books worth. About drive a Fire Marshall nuts.

 

[SmokeyTheBear]

A pellet stove or boiler should be installed by a professional. If this particular one was installed by a professional (would be hard to believe) then criminal charges should be brought. If the owner had a dubber install it, or did it himself, then the criminal charges should be brought. I would have to think that there would be state codes in the case of a rental property.

Code violations in general do not rise to a crime. Civil action however can result.

ETA: What actually happened there is possibly different from what the article says, things sometimes are not reported correctly.

 

[Polar Bear]

No thimble? No brains either apparently.

 

[BrotherBart]

I had a individual admit to using a PVC vent pipe.

This was venting a corn stove.

 

[DMKNLD]

A pellet stove or boiler should be installed by a professional. If this particular one was installed by a professional (would be hard to believe) then criminal charges should be brought. If the owner had a dubber install it, or did it himself, then the criminal charges should be brought. I would have to think that there would be state codes in the case of a rental property.

This was all one extended family apparently, so rental property codes would be different than the supposed 'single family' dwelling that this house was listed as. Obviously, fire kills indiscriminately, regardless of how a residence is listed. The homeowner reportedly did the install himself, and it was the first burn in the pellet boiler.

I'm not familiar with rental property solid fuel fire codes in Maine, but personal dwelling fire codes in the state seem pretty lax. When we bought our 1870's farmhouse we had to submit a diagram to our homeowners insurance company showing our pellet stove clearances (which I moved from a different part of the house) and wood stove clearances, but they didn't require pictures to confirm the install, and no one ever checked up or questioned it.

I have heard of other ME homeowners insurance companies requiring photo documentation or an independent inspection, so this seems to be more insurance company dependent than fire code driven. Obviously, if I burn my farmhouse down and the fire marshal's report says it was caused by an improper stove installation, my insurance company could rightfully refuse to pay the claim, so I definitely self-installed mine to all the Quad specs.

It simply isn't worth the risk to me or my family doing a stove self-install 'on the cheap'. Apparently this was not the homeowner in questions thought process. Fortunately, 'the fool killer took the night off' at his clearly preventable structure fire.

 

[DMKNLD]

Code violations in general do not rise to a crime. Civil action however can result.

ETA: What actually happened there is possibly different from what the article says, things sometimes are not reported correctly.

I know the Fire Chief who was quoted in the article and was the fire scene command, and usually he's careful with the media information releases so they 'get it right'. But you are correct, sometimes the media "doesn't always let the truth get in the way of a good story."

 

[Bioburner]

This was venting a corn stove.

Did pretty good, it didnt catch fire

 

[moey]

I'm not familiar with rental property solid fuel fire codes in Maine, but personal dwelling fire codes in the state seem pretty lax.

Our fire department ( Maine ) was more then willing to come out and give a "courtesy inspection". But we never needed a permit to install it. You dont need permits for much in maine Ive discovered except for plumbing.

 

[Polar Bear]

We don't require a permit, however do require either a WETT certified installer perform the installation or once I finished installing it, having a WETT certified inspector sign off on it... in person!!

 

[Bioburner]

We don't require a permit, however do require either a WETT certified installer perform the installation or once I finished installing it, having a WETT certified inspector sign off on it... in person!!

Sounds pretty close to what I did when I installed a gas stove and furnace to make everyone happy, mainly insurance. Cost for the service call was ten years ago only $40 and a piece of mind that even though I thought I did it right, it was confirmed. Basically he tightened down the gas coupler and checked the pressure so no one could say I had put it in service.

 

[Polar Bear]

Sounds pretty close to what I did when I installed a gas stove and furnace to make everyone happy, mainly insurance. Cost for the service call was ten years ago only $40 and a piece of mind that even though I thought I did it right, it was confirmed. Basically he tightened down the gas coupler and checked the pressure so no one could say I had put it in service.

No kidding.

$140 certification vs. $350K house fire not covered from insurance... not a tough call.