Is it the stove or is it me?

[wybroncos]

Hello. I’ve been lurking for a while trying to figure out how to best operate my Dutch West (VC) 2461. I’m about to give up on it. I need to know if it’s just me? Or is this stove just junk?

The stove came with the house when we bought the place in 2016. I’m guessing by some of the paperwork and owners manual I found that the stove was installed around 1997, the year after the house was put in (manufactured home). This is the first stove I’ve had in my adult life, I grew up with one but we didn’t use it as a primary heat source. I took the stove apart to inspect it and clean it. I ended up replacing the catalyst (it was gunked up and in pieces), refractory (it was in pieces), and all of the seals in the doors and the top. It worked “okay” for a bit and I attributed my struggles with the stove to not knowing how to use the cat. Because it hasn’t been much fun I’ve only used it during power outages or if it’s really dang cold. Until last winter I started using it part time to heat the house. This winter my plan was to use it full time. It’s not going well. We had a couple of ok weeks, I feel like it is too small to heat my 2000 sq ft house. Then it started having a hard time keeping a good draft. Then it started backpoofing. It’s currently torn apart in pieces and I’m trying to figure out where the problem is. The cat looks nearly new but the outside of it has some red discoloration on it. Does that indicate it’s been over fired? We must have gotten a bird inside the stove this spring because the refractory was torn up in little bits in some places but I have one on order. I’m in the process of replacing the door seals again, it feels like they should have lasted longer. The fan didn’t work when we moved in, I didn’t think that was a big deal but shopping for one now and I’m not sure I few like spending that much money on one for this particular stove.

We are burning well seasoned elm because that’s what we have available. I’m not sure how long my flue/chimney run is but when we first moved in I measured it and from doing some reading I remember it was “appropriate”. Ive finally mastered reading the temperatures in the cat probe, side door, and flue thermometers. I feel like I have a handle on managing the cat and air flow. I really feel like it’s an undersized hunk of junk and I’m debating on shopping for a new stove next spring/summer. I just want to make sure I’m not missing something. Is it the stove? Or is it me?

 

[Heat Maxx]

Hello. I’ve been lurking for a while trying to figure out how to best operate my Dutch West (VC) 2461. I’m about to give up on it. I need to know if it’s just me? Or is this stove just junk?

The stove came with the house when we bought the place in 2016. I’m guessing by some of the paperwork and owners manual I found that the stove was installed around 1997, the year after the house was put in (manufactured home). This is the first stove I’ve had in my adult life, I grew up with one but we didn’t use it as a primary heat source. I took the stove apart to inspect it and clean it. I ended up replacing the catalyst (it was gunked up and in pieces), refractory (it was in pieces), and all of the seals in the doors and the top. It worked “okay” for a bit and I attributed my struggles with the stove to not knowing how to use the cat. Because it hasn’t been much fun I’ve only used it during power outages or if it’s really dang cold. Until last winter I started using it part time to heat the house. This winter my plan was to use it full time. It’s not going well. We had a couple of ok weeks, I feel like it is too small to heat my 2000 sq ft house. Then it started having a hard time keeping a good draft. Then it started backpoofing. It’s currently torn apart in pieces and I’m trying to figure out where the problem is. The cat looks nearly new but the outside of it has some red discoloration on it. Does that indicate it’s been over fired? We must have gotten a bird inside the stove this spring because the refractory was torn up in little bits in some places but I have one on order. I’m in the process of replacing the door seals again, it feels like they should have lasted longer. The fan didn’t work when we moved in, I didn’t think that was a big deal but shopping for one now and I’m not sure I few like spending that much money on one for this particular stove.

We are burning well seasoned elm because that’s what we have available. I’m not sure how long my flue/chimney run is but when we first moved in I measured it and from doing some reading I remember it was “appropriate”. Ive finally mastered reading the temperatures in the cat probe, side door, and flue thermometers. I feel like I have a handle on managing the cat and air flow. I really feel like it’s an undersized hunk of junk and I’m debating on shopping for a new stove next spring/summer. I just want to make sure I’m not missing something. Is it the stove? Or is it me?

Got a pic?

 

[Ashful]

I have no familiarity with your particular stove, but 1997 would likely be a 1st-generation updraft design, from VC. Most of the 1st-gen cat stoves from most manufacturers being initially released 1990 - 1993, and probably not replaced by 2nd-gen designs until late 1990's. They were still learning a lot back then, and updraft designs are particularly finnicky, so it's not wrong to assume the stove is at least partly contributing to your troubles.

That said, having been a new user 12 years ago with two very similar 1990's updraft cat stoves from Jotul, I can offer this:

1. Without exaggeration, probably 90% of the problems reported here by new burners comes back to the wood quality. Either not as seasoned as they believe, or old punky stuff past it's prime. Can you describe when it was split and stacked, and how it was stored?

2. Updraft stoves don't pre-heat the catalyst, the way more modern designs do. So, when you first close the bypass, you're essentially slamming hot exhaust through a cold combustor, and hoping the fire just has enough momentum to carry it through until the combustor heats up and lights off. Stalling the thing is a real problem, and you don't have the advantage of waiting for the cat to go active before closing the bypass. You want the load to be fully charred over, and a healthy / vigorous fire going, before you close the bypass. Assume about 20 minutes after lighting, in most cases with nice dry wood, before closing the bypass.

3. Because you're running extended time in bypass, it can be easy to overheat your chimney. Get a chimney probe therometer to monitor, and use a key damper if necessary to control draft and chimney temperature during initial bypass phase.

4. After closing bypass, run a good 10 minutes on high, then lower the throttle to desired setting in 2-3 steps spread at 5 minute intervals.

 

[Heat Maxx]

Grest info 👍

 

[moresnow]

Can you bring a selection of your splits indoors for 24 hrs to get them up to room temp throughout?
After the selected splits are up to room temp take them back outdoors and re-split each one.
Immediately test the freshly exposed inner surface of each re-split with a moisture meter.
Post here what your results are. This is crucial.

If you don't own a moisture meter, go purchase one. Amazon, box store, local hardware. My cheap amazon model has served well for years.
Other than Pine/softwoods most hardwoods need to be split (and) stacked between 1-3 years prior to hitting the stove. Food for thought.

Elm makes outstanding fuel. Variety is not your issue. Sounds suspiciously like proper seasoning could be your real issue.

Describe/picture your entire vent system from stove collar to cap.
Sounds like it may need swept and/or you may have a plugged cap screen if so equipped.

You have an older stove of somewhat dubious renown. For heading towards full time heating you may consider the long run and start researching a replacement that isn't as troublesome. A thought. Good luck.

 

[Diabel]

Both of you guys covered all the main angles. Nothing here to add in terms of proper operation.

Few years back when I was fighting (love/hate relationship) with my VC encore and spending hours here trying to learn how to operate it better. I came across many comments that the DW was a good heater not as temperamental as its cousins VC stoves.

 

[wybroncos]

Got a pic?

The stuff around the stove is not normally there. The stove has been down for a week, we just had a birthday party so this area became extra storage space. And the stove is currently not all together while waiting for parts.

 

[begreen]

As a test, try adding some known dry wood. Get some dry 2x4 cut-offs and add them to the elm in maybe a 50/50 mix. See if that makes a major improvement.

Weak draft can also contribute to weak stove performance. It looks like there may be about 11' of flue on the stove. If so, that's well below the tested 16' of flue that stoves are normally tested with. This is from the manual:

For proper draft and good performance, the chimney should extend at least 16’ (5 m) above the flue collar of the stove.

 

[wybroncos]

I have no familiarity with your particular stove, but 1997 would likely be a 1st-generation updraft design, from VC. Most of the 1st-gen cat stoves from most manufacturers being initially released 1990 - 1993, and probably not replaced by 2nd-gen designs until late 1990's. They were still learning a lot back then, and updraft designs are particularly finnicky, so it's not wrong to assume the stove is at least partly contributing to your troubles.

That said, having been a new user 12 years ago with two very similar 1990's updraft cat stoves from Jotul, I can offer this:

1. Without exaggeration, probably 90% of the problems reported here by new burners comes back to the wood quality. Either not as seasoned as they believe, or old punky stuff past it's prime. Can you describe when it was split and stacked, and how it was stored?

2. Updraft stoves don't pre-heat the catalyst, the way more modern designs do. So, when you first close the bypass, you're essentially slamming hot exhaust through a cold combustor, and hoping the fire just has enough momentum to carry it through until the combustor heats up and lights off. Stalling the thing is a real problem, and you don't have the advantage of waiting for the cat to go active before closing the bypass. You want the load to be fully charred over, and a healthy / vigorous fire going, before you close the bypass. Assume about 20 minutes after lighting, in most cases with nice dry wood, before closing the bypass.

3. Because you're running extended time in bypass, it can be easy to overheat your chimney. Get a chimney probe therometer to monitor, and use a key damper if necessary to control draft and chimney temperature during initial bypass phase.

4. After closing bypass, run a good 10 minutes on high, then lower the throttle to desired setting in 2-3 steps spread at 5 minute intervals.

Thank you, this is all very helpful!
1.

I have no familiarity with your particular stove, but 1997 would likely be a 1st-generation updraft design, from VC. Most of the 1st-gen cat stoves from most manufacturers being initially released 1990 - 1993, and probably not replaced by 2nd-gen designs until late 1990's. They were still learning a lot back then, and updraft designs are particularly finnicky, so it's not wrong to assume the stove is at least partly contributing to your troubles.

That said, having been a new user 12 years ago with two very similar 1990's updraft cat stoves from Jotul, I can offer this:

1. Without exaggeration, probably 90% of the problems reported here by new burners comes back to the wood quality. Either not as seasoned as they believe, or old punky stuff past it's prime. Can you describe when it was split and stacked, and how it was stored?

2. Updraft stoves don't pre-heat the catalyst, the way more modern designs do. So, when you first close the bypass, you're essentially slamming hot exhaust through a cold combustor, and hoping the fire just has enough momentum to carry it through until the combustor heats up and lights off. Stalling the thing is a real problem, and you don't have the advantage of waiting for the cat to go active before closing the bypass. You want the load to be fully charred over, and a healthy / vigorous fire going, before you close the bypass. Assume about 20 minutes after lighting, in most cases with nice dry wood, before closing the bypass.

3. Because you're running extended time in bypass, it can be easy to overheat your chimney. Get a chimney probe therometer to monitor, and use a key damper if necessary to control draft and chimney temperature during initial bypass phase.

4. After closing bypass, run a good 10 minutes on high, then lower the throttle to desired setting in 2-3 steps spread at 5 minute intervals.

This is very helpful, thank you!
1. Some of the wood we started with was very old stuff that had been laying around for several years. This year I’m working through stuff that had been split a year or so ago from trees that died 3-4 years ago. Also there is some that is from 3-4 year dead trees that my husband split over the summer. It’s been in a stack next to the house uncovered. I know this is not ideal and we had plans to build a lean-to for the wood this summer but didn’t get to it. I have a heavy duty tarp (semi trailer lumber tarp) to use as a temporary lean-to cover, just need to get hubby to put it up.
2 & 3. Absolutely totally understand the stalling out when closing the bypass. I get the fire going and at about 20-30 minutes have to fiddle with it for a bit to keep the temp up enough to engage the cat. This was a learning curve but I understand it now, I think. After I understood the balancing act of warming up the pipe and stove with out getting the pipe too hot while trying to get the cat hot enough things started to go better. It’s a single wall pipe in the house and I have a magnetic surface thermometer 8” up from the top of the stove. Do I still need a probe thermometer and key damper?
4. This is about what I’ve found to work best. It takes about an hour to get the stove so I can leave it alone for a while.

Thank you so much. You are probably right about the wood being the problem. At least I feel after reading through your detailed steps that I’m basically on the right path as far as operation.

 

[wybroncos]

Can you bring a selection of your splits indoors for 24 hrs to get them up to room temp throughout?
After the selected splits are up to room temp take them back outdoors and re-split each one.
Immediately test the freshly exposed inner surface of each re-split with a moisture meter.
Post here what your results are. This is crucial.

If you don't own a moisture meter, go purchase one. Amazon, box store, local hardware. My cheap amazon model has served well for years.
Other than Pine/softwoods most hardwoods need to be split (and) stacked between 1-3 years prior to hitting the stove. Food for thought.

Elm makes outstanding fuel. Variety is not your issue. Sounds suspiciously like proper seasoning could be your real issue.

Describe/picture your entire vent system from stove collar to cap.
Sounds like it may need swept and/or you may have a plugged cap screen if so equipped.

You have an older stove of somewhat dubious renown. For heading towards full time heating you may consider the long run and start researching a replacement that isn't as troublesome. A thought. Good luck.

Thank you! I will get a moisture meter this week! Some of the wood has been split for a year, some of it this summer. It has all been dead for 3-4 years. We are so chronically behind on everything around here and trying to catch up.

The pipe inside is 5.5’ of single wall coming straight up out of the flue collar, then into the ceiling support. Outside it’s 5’ of triple wall (I think). I’ll ask my husband to look and see if there is a screen. He has swept it out every other week when we use the stove because I’m terrified of a chimney fire. There is never more than a little dusting of soot. When we first bought the house and swept the pipe we got a bucket of chunks out of it so I don’t think the previous owner took care of it at all.

I have started looking at new stoves, probably a project for next summer as we will need to save up to buy one. I hope I can limp this thing through one more winter. Thank you!

 

[wybroncos]

As a test, try adding some known dry wood. Get some dry 2x4 cut-offs and add them to the elm in maybe a 50/50 mix. See if that makes a major improvement.

Weak draft can also contribute to weak stove performance. It looks like there may be about 11' of flue on the stove. If so, that's well below the tested 16' of flue that stoves are normally tested with. This is from the manual:

For proper draft and good performance, the chimney should extend at least 16’ (5 m) above the flue collar of the stove.

After I get it put back together I will test it with 2x4’s, thank you! Yes, I just measured this morning and it’s 5.5’ inside and 5’ outside. Yikes, you are right, it’s not tall enough. Grrrr the previous owner did every thing so cheap and cut all off the corners. He probably didn’t want to spend any more money on another section of pipe. Ugh, so now do I fix the flue or get a whole new stove???? Grrrr!

 

[Diabel]

On a ~~11’ chimney, not sure if any modern stove will run correctly.

 

[begreen]

wybroncos as another test, get a 4' length of 6" galvanized duct pipe from the Home Depot or equiv. On a calm day, remove the chimney cap and stick the duct pipe into the chimney pipe to make a temporary, test extension. Try out the stove with the added pipe. If it makes a good difference, then consider adding chimney. It will need to be braced at 5' above the roof exit.

On a ~~11’ chimney, not sure if any modern stove will run correctly.

Some Canadian models will work ok. I have a friend that has a Summit on a short, 12' flue and it performs pretty well considering and his flue is not straight up.

 

[tsquini]

I had a draft issue with my stove at first. We found out that the stove hood (600 cfm) fan pulled enough air to pull smoke back in the house when starting a fire.

 

[moresnow]

"Thank you! I will get a moisture meter this week! Some of the wood has been split for a year, some of it this summer. It has all been dead for 3-4 years. We are so chronically behind on everything around here and trying to catch up."

Just follow the wood testing routine outlined above. Testing any outside portion of your splits otherwise means zero!
At least your pipe is straight up and out. Adding a test section as described is worth your effort.

Good to hear you guys are keeping a close eye on pipe cleaning until you get a handle on things.
Carry on and report what you find out. Good luck.

 

[Ashful]

Chimney draft is strongly dependent on both height and temperature differential. The temperature differential at start-up is simply inside room temperature versus outside temperature up on your roof, but eventually becomes the difference between stove collar temperature and roof, after warmed up and running. If the chimney is on the short side, it can still work under some conditions, but you will be limited as follows:

1. You may not be able to run the stove at lower settings, where stove collar temperature and thus draft drop-off and cause cat temperature to plummet.

2. You may have enormous trouble starting fires on days that are less cold outside.

Obviously, you want an ideal chimney, at 16 feet or more. But if it were already installed safely at 11 feet, assuming it's meeting penetration and 3/10 rules, I'd just deal with the limitations.

As to flue probe and damper, don't bother with damper if your pipe is that short. They're made to throttle back an over-drafted stove, clearly not your scenario with an 11 foot chimney. The probe is always useful, pretty cheap, and easy to install. You should have two, one in the stove measuring temperature at the back of the catalyst, and a second in the stovepipe about 18" - 24" above stove collar. These are endlessly useful in operation and debug.

 

[Woodsplitter67]

From reading the OP posts.. "Some wood was cut this summer/ some wood was split a year " Im guessing some sub par wood and a short stack.

I understand that the OP is getting a moisture meter. Its probably worth getting some bio bricks.. testing the stove with them. If the wood is marginal.. mixing the energy logs and wood together for a better burn

To the OP.. there are many threads going on in the VC forum.. temperature threads.. different burning techniques.. General discussion.. tons of information.. You may want to look there to help yourself out. I have also posten in some of
of the threads STT, stove pipe temperature, catalyst temperatures ect..

 

[Heat Maxx]

The stuff around the stove is not normally there. The stove has been down for a week, we just had a birthday party so this area became extra storage space. And the stove is currently not all together while waiting for parts.

View attachment 320167 View attachment 320168 View attachment 320169 View attachment 320170 View attachment 320171 View attachment 320172

Had a VC rectangular box stove and it had the exact set up. Ya gotta love maintenance 😊 still a great stove!

 

[wybroncos]

"Thank you! I will get a moisture meter this week! Some of the wood has been split for a year, some of it this summer. It has all been dead for 3-4 years. We are so chronically behind on everything around here and trying to catch up."

Just follow the wood testing routine outlined above. Testing any outside portion of your splits otherwise means zero!
At least your pipe is straight up and out. Adding a test section as described is worth your effort.

Good to hear you guys are keeping a close eye on pipe cleaning until you get a handle on things.
Carry on and report what you find out. Good luck.

Sorry it’s taken so long. My husband took a good sampling of wood, split it again and tested the inside. Moisture was any where from 18-23%. We didn’t get around to testing with more chimney pipe. We live 2 hours from anywhere and with the holidays we just didn’t get to it. Plus the part we ordered got lost by USPS and we had to reorder it

I think at a minimum the cat isn’t functioning. It really doesn’t even have 2 full burning seasons through it but looks great. After finally receiving all parts to put it back together and replacing all of the gaskets, and cleaning the whole thing we have more problems. Last night the stove was making a loud chugging sound. I shut off the air to kill the fire and found the cat was glowing. Upon tearing the whole stove apart today we found the brand new 2 week old refractory package is white on the inside but black and charred on the outside. There is so much soot in between the top of the fire box and top of the stove. I’m fairly certain this thing has been over fired in the past. None of the pieces fit together correctly and there are gaps in places where the top of the stove isn’t making contact with the gasket in spots because the metal isn’t level. I’m done with it! It’s leaving tomorrow! Our neighbor is bringing us his spare “airtight” wood circulator tomorrow for us to borrow while we shop for a new stove.

 

[Woodsplitter67]

Sorry it’s taken so long. My husband took a good sampling of wood, split it again and tested the inside. Moisture was any where from 18-23%. We didn’t get around to testing with more chimney pipe. We live 2 hours from anywhere and with the holidays we just didn’t get to it. Plus the part we ordered got lost by USPS and we had to reorder it

I think at a minimum the cat isn’t functioning. It really doesn’t even have 2 full burning seasons through it but looks great. After finally receiving all parts to put it back together and replacing all of the gaskets, and cleaning the whole thing we have more problems. Last night the stove was making a loud chugging sound. I shut off the air to kill the fire and found the cat was glowing. Upon tearing the whole stove apart today we found the brand new 2 week old refractory package is white on the inside but black and charred on the outside. There is so much soot in between the top of the fire box and top of the stove. I’m fairly certain this thing has been over fired in the past. None of the pieces fit together correctly and there are gaps in places where the top of the stove isn’t making contact with the gasket in spots because the metal isn’t level. I’m done with it! It’s leaving tomorrow! Our neighbor is bringing us his spare “airtight” wood circulator tomorrow for us to borrow while we shop for a new stove.

ok.. sounds good