It's started

[begreen]

Volvo declares they will be going completely electric and will cease production of cars with an ICE in 2 years. Yes, that is in 2019. In the meantime the Tesla 3 is going into production. They expect to be up to 20,000/month by December.
http://www.bbc.com/news/business-40505671
Previous discussion:
https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/is-the-reign-of-the-ice-ending.161582/

 

[jcapler]

I read that Volvo story this morning. Not sure my opinions about this yet. My wife and I looked at hybrids a year or two ago and just couldn't convince myself it was a good step to make.


Woodpro WS-TS-2000

 

[iamlucky13]

Interesting move. Volvo needs it. Those heavy cars and big engines tend towards the bottom of their class for fuel economy.

I had a Volvo C40 as a rental in the UK about 2 years ago. It was badged as a hybrid, but it was definitely had a start-stop feature. It was surprisingly peppy for a small diesel, so I assumed it had some electric kick. It was a very nice car to drive.

 

[Ashful]

Interesting move. Volvo needs it. Those heavy cars and big engines tend towards the bottom of their class for fuel economy.

I had a Volvo C40 as a rental in the UK about 2 years ago. It was badged as a hybrid, but it was definitely had a start-stop feature. It was surprisingly peppy for a small diesel, so I assumed it had some electric kick. It was a very nice car to drive.

We own a 2010 V50 T5 R-design that I can't convince my wife to sell, despite its age and miles. Definitely not the heavy old Volvo you remember from 30 years' past, though. Quite peppy, with a 250 hp 5-cyl turbo engine and 6-speed manual trans in a 3500 lb AWD car.

We love our Volvo, but absolutely despise the dealer where we bought it. If they're going all electric, that is the last nail in the coffin, in terms of us ever buying another Volvo.

 

[pdf27]

If they're going all electric, that is the last nail in the coffin, in terms of us ever buying another Volvo.

Not quite - essentially what they've announced is that any new powertrains they develop will be hybrid rather than pure internal combustion engine ones. They'll probably start offering pure electric options as well, but they're unlikely to be a big fraction of their production - in some niche markets like Norway they'll probably only be able to sell pure electric vehicles, which will be why they're likely to be offered.

The other thing to be aware of is that the EU are gradually tightening up their CO2 emissions regulations - to the extent that by about 2020 it'll be essentially impossible to meet the regulations without hybrid powertrains. Since Europe is probably their biggest market and unlike some other carmakers they aren't big enough to offer a mix of powertrains and tiny cars with ultra-low emissions (the regulations apply to their fleet as an average) they're making a virtue of something that they're forced to do.

 

[iamlucky13]

We own a 2010 V50 T5 R-design that I can't convince my wife to sell, despite its age and miles. Definitely not the heavy old Volvo you remember from 30 years' past, though. Quite peppy, with a 250 hp 5-cyl turbo engine and 6-speed manual trans in a 3500 lb AWD car.

We love our Volvo, but absolutely despise the dealer where we bought it. If they're going all electric, that is the last nail in the coffin, in terms of us ever buying another Volvo.

That's still heavy. It's just that now they have the horsepower to make up for it. It's the same size (supposedly the same underlying platform, actually) as the Mazda 3, which is a 2800 lb car. Also very similar to the Subaru Imprezza, which is also AWD, and a little over 3,000 lb.

No doubt they are solidly-built, comfortable cars though. That weight is there for a reason.

 

[begreen]

Not quite - essentially what they've announced is that any new powertrains they develop will be hybrid rather than pure internal combustion engine ones. They'll probably start offering pure electric options as well, but they're unlikely to be a big fraction of their production - in some niche markets like Norway they'll probably only be able to sell pure electric vehicles, which will be why they're likely to be offered.

The other thing to be aware of is that the EU are gradually tightening up their CO2 emissions regulations - to the extent that by about 2020 it'll be essentially impossible to meet the regulations without hybrid powertrains. Since Europe is probably their biggest market and unlike some other carmakers they aren't big enough to offer a mix of powertrains and tiny cars with ultra-low emissions (the regulations apply to their fleet as an average) they're making a virtue of something that they're forced to do.

Hybrids may be for US/Europe sales, but for China I suspect pure electric will be the push. Volvo is now owned by Geely, China.

 

[Sprinter]

Volvo is now owned by Geely, China.

Well, that should shut a few people up, but from what I hear, Volvo will still be in Sweden, and if Geely is smart, they won't mess with it too much, even with the all-electric trend. I wonder what they want with Volvo, though. They seem a little heavy for all-electric drive, but maybe they have such plans.

Nevertheless, the writing is on the wall. electric is here to stay. Although probably none will be found in my garage, but that's only because we don't drive all that much these days.

 

[Sprinter]

That weight is there for a reason.

I may be in a minority, but we have two relatively large vehicles for convenience. Nothing gets great mileage, but on the other hand, neither gets driven that much either. If we still commuted to work or otherwise drove a lot, I would be the first to go all-electric, but at this stage I love my SUV and my older boat of a Mercury Grand Marquis station wagon. I'm pretty sure we use much less fuel per month or year than most with a hybrid or electric out there (like my sister), but I'm always glad for the space and handling and safety that they give me. Maybe I'm spoiled with the large company cars I've always had before, though.

My only real point is that there are many ways to save on gas. Not driving as much is only one.

My admission: I do sort of wish I had an excuse to have an all-electric. Because I just like the idea. Not so much hybrid, though. Meanwhile, I'm not giving up my comfy boats just yet.

 

[Ashful]

That's still heavy. It's just that now they have the horsepower to make up for it. It's the same size (supposedly the same underlying platform, actually) as the Mazda 3, which is a 2800 lb car. Also very similar to the Subaru Imprezza, which is also AWD, and a little over 3,000 lb.

No doubt they are solidly-built, comfortable cars though. That weight is there for a reason.

I think a large part of the weight is features, stuff like heavy leather bucket seats with about 12 different motorized adjusters and inflators on each, and enough airbags to mimic the cannoli car of Demolition Man. But to me, 3500 lb. is still quite light and nimble, my car weighs 4350 lb. (but has 2x HP).

A quick Google search indicates the Mazda 3 wagon weighs 3245 lb., and has a 2.3L turbo 4-cyl, not 2800 lb. as you suggest. And as far as I can tell, the 2010 Impreza wagon was only available with a 170 hp 2.4 L flat-4, a stripped-down econobox at less than half the price of the Volvo V50 T5 R-design. Not a comparable car, nor is any Japanese car I've ever driven, for that matter.

The only comparable car I drove at the time was the BMW 328i X-drive wagon, but we went Volvo because my wife wanted a traditional stick-shift manual transmission. BMW had eliminated traditional stick-shift manual trans in that model year, in favor of dual-clutch paddle-shifter manuals. The worst that year was Audi, who wouldn't offer their more powerful engine or manual trans in an AWD wagon, total marketing miss.

Volvo V50 T5 R-design: 3570 lb / 227 hp
BMW 328i X-drive: 3583 - 3770 lb / 230 hp
Audi A4 Quattro Wagon: 3814 lb / 211 hp

Now, you tell me which is heaviest, and which has the power/weight ratio advantage?

 

[begreen]

It will be interesting to see if Volvo produces the first electric SUV.

 

[woodgeek]

It will be interesting to see if Volvo produces the first electric SUV.

The Tesla model X is considered by some the first BEV SUV. It's not huge, but it does come in a three row configuration.

And of course there was the BEV RAV4 that Toyota and Tesla sold as a joint project a few years back.

Good info here. As @pdf27 mentioned, the Volvo commitment is confusingly worded. They have NOT committed to a date to stop making and shipping (legacy) ICE cars, but estimate that that will be in the 2024 time frame. And certainly contingent on the direction of the EV market between now and then.

@Ashful has plenty of time to get a new ICE Volvo.

In my opinion, clearly good PR.

 

[begreen]

Good info, I didn't know the X had a 3 seat option. Sounds really tight for the rear row. Forgot about the RAV4.

Yes, the details are now dribbling in. Geely announced that every Volvo after 2019 will have an electric motor. They will offer a Prius-style mild battery assist, a plug-in hybrid version and a battery only option. Volvo says they are ceasing development of their ICE engines. Ashful might be interested in the Polestar line as it develops.

Volvo plans on launching five new all-electric models between 2019 and 2021–three will be sold as Volvos, while the others will wear Polestar branding. Last month, Volvo announced that it's spinning off Polestar to be its own separate brand for all-electric performance cars.

Automotive News reports that Volvo expects that it will stop selling cars relying solely on internal combustion power between 2023 and 2025. Additionally, Volvo confirmed that it's not developing a new family of internal-combustion engines either.
http://www.roadandtrack.com/new-cars/future-cars/a10260749/volvo-2019-hybrids/

 

[Ashful]

One source of heartburn for us old house nuts is possible additional electrical requirements for multiple EV's in a single household. We are sitting at three cars now, likely to be five or six cars in a decade, when our kids are driving. Meanwhile, we're spread scary thin on a 200A electrical service, whereas any similar size house today would have 400A minimum. At the same time, we're considering moving from an oil-fired DHW heater to a HP water heater in the basement, and replacing our third-floor water heater with an on-demand unit, both high instanteous draw appliances. EV's don't appear to be a valid option for us, based on these constraints, at this time.

 

[iamlucky13]

A quick Google search indicates the Mazda 3 wagon weighs 3245 lb., and has a 2.3L turbo 4-cyl, not 2800 lb. as you suggest. And as far as I can tell, the 2010 Impreza wagon was only available with a 170 hp 2.4 L flat-4, a stripped-down econobox at less than half the price of the Volvo V50 T5 R-design. Not a comparable car, nor is any Japanese car I've ever driven, for that matter.

Wikipedia might have cited a stripped down, sedan version of the Mazda 3. Looks like a couple sources cite 3064 lbs for the 2011 base model hatchback.

Anyways, the post was not intended as a knock against Volvo. They've got a lot of high end features and a reputation for holding up well due to solid construction. I can tell you the current generation Outback has enough body flex that sometimes when parked on uneven ground, the rear liftgate requires a veritable slam to get it to latch, and it makes me wonder how the frame and body will be doing after 200,000 miles. A friend who also owns an Outback has confirmed the same on his. I'll bet Volvo XC-70 owners don't have that problem.

I know that one of the things that jumped out at me about my sister's Audi was how perfectly aligned the doors were, requiring effectively zero effort to close. 100 different details like that and the underlying structure or additional parts a feature requires are simply part of the reality of what it takes to achieve that kind of driving experience.

 

[iamlucky13]

ut we went Volvo because my wife wanted a traditional stick-shift manual transmission.

Your wife needs to meet my wife and teach her how to drive. She already overruled my desire to have the car she usually drives be a manual. Now she's trying to mandate that when my commuter gets replaced that I have to get an automatic.

 

[woodgeek]

One source of heartburn for us old house nuts is possible additional electrical requirements for multiple EV's in a single household. We are sitting at three cars now, likely to be five or six cars in a decade, when our kids are driving. Meanwhile, we're spread scary thin on a 200A electrical service, whereas any similar size house today would have 400A minimum. At the same time, we're considering moving from an oil-fired DHW heater to a HP water heater in the basement, and replacing our third-floor water heater with an on-demand unit, both high instanteous draw appliances. EV's don't appear to be a valid option for us, based on these constraints, at this time.

By the time you get EVs, you'll have replaced all those light bulbs with 100 lum/W LED bulbs and HPWHs will be so efficient they will run on unicorn farts. And you will have plenty of juice for a couple EVs (which charge just fine at 30A).

Joking aside, I expect future EVSEs to have multiple heads and to optionally charge the heads sequentially for load mgmt. And current HPWHs only needs 500-800W for a 60 gal unit.

I've got a 15 kW strip heat, a 4 ton HP, a 80 gal HPWH, an electric range and dryer and a 7 kW EVSE on a 200A box. Turn it all on at the same time, I'd come in around 35 kW. My 200A service is good for 48 kW. Still, it does melt the snow off the aerial line.

 

[WoodyIsGoody]

By the time you get EVs, you'll have replaced all those light bulbs with 100 lum/W LED bulbs and HPWHs will be so efficient they will run on unicorn farts. And you will have plenty of juice for a couple EVs (which charge just fine at 30A).

Joking aside, I expect future EVSEs to have multiple heads and to optionally charge the heads sequentially for load mgmt. And current HPWHs only needs 500-800W for a 60 gal unit.

I've got a 15 kW strip heat, a 4 ton HP, a 80 gal HPWH, an electric range and dryer and a 7 kW EVSE on a 200A box. Turn it all on at the same time, I'd come in around 35 kW. My 200A service is good for 48 kW. Still, it does melt the snow off the aerial line.

My ski cabin has an electric on-demand water heater. Open a hot water valve and it draws 28 kW! Then you can add in electric oven, mini-split heat pump, electric radiant floor heat, electric baseboards, fridge, electric hot tub, electric dryer and lights, of course. All on 100 amp service. Works great! My electric bills are very low due to primarily using a woodstove for heat, upgraded insulation on the outdoor hot tub and a drain water heat recovery pipe on the shower. Oh, and energy efficient dishwasher and front-loading washer.

 

[Ashful]

I know that one of the things that jumped out at me about my sister's Audi was how perfectly aligned the doors were, requiring effectively zero effort to close. 100 different details like that and the underlying structure or additional parts a feature requires are simply part of the reality of what it takes to achieve that kind of driving experience.

Yes! I know folks love to knock the European brands, and not without some reason, but you really notice differences like that after driving some of them awhile. Doors that feel as heavy as a vault door, but close with machinist-like precision, and make comparable Japanese brands feel like riding in a tinfoil coffin. Of course, those little details cost money while not always enhancing reliability, and thus the ignorant criticism paying more for what appears on the surface to be the same thing.

Your wife needs to meet my wife and teach her how to drive. She already overruled my desire to have the car she usually drives be a manual. Now she's trying to mandate that when my commuter gets replaced that I have to get an automatic.

You're not kidding. For years, my wife was just as yours, very opposed to the idea of driving a manual transmission. It was really a sore point between us, since I swore I'd never buy an automatic vehicle (that has since changed). Eventually, two of her girlfriends learned to drive stick (both around age 30), and told her the only way she's ever going to learn is to just buy her own vehicle with a manual trans. So, she let me trade her current car in on a little Audi A3 with manual trans, and we spent a weekend in the local church parking lot learning the basics. Her first two or three weeks of commuting were rough, but she survived. By the end of the fourth week, she told me she was loving it, and would never buy another automatic transmission car again.

By the time you get EVs, you'll have replaced all those light bulbs with 100 lum/W LED bulbs and HPWHs will be so efficient they will run on unicorn farts.

lol! I have tried LED bulbs, in my garage and utility room. The "warm white", in the 2200 - 2800 K temperature range, and they put out an unholy light more monotone and depressing than the basement of your local state hospital.

 

[begreen]

Car talk belongs in

lol! I have tried LED bulbs, in my garage and utility room. The "warm white", in the 2200 - 2800 K temperature range, and they put out an unholy light more monotone and depressing than the basement of your local state hospital.

All bulbs are not created equal. We have LED bulbs testing in parts of the house that you would be hard pressed to know in comparison to halogens. Two are in the kitchen and they have so far been quite impressive. Pick bulbs that have a high CRI for best light.

 

[Ashful]

Car talk belongs in

All bulbs are not created equal. We have LED bulbs testing in parts of the house that you would be hard pressed to know in comparison to halogens. Two are in the kitchen and they have so far been quite impressive. Pick bulbs that have a high CRI for best light.

In where? I thought this was a thread about cars, not light bulbs. ;-)

I have three R19 LED bulbs in soffit of the front porch, and another four in the soffit of my barn, and they are a little less warm than I like, but they must have very good CRI.

The "unholy" ones are Phillips A19 2700K, and the homedepot.com site claims they're CRI = 80.

 

[begreen]

Car talk belongs on NPR. So sorry they are discontinuing this program. And you're right, topic is about electric cars.

 

[georgepds]

Re safety.. weight alone is not adequate protection. Energy dissipation in crumple zones, advanced cruise control that keeps you in lane and prevents you from hitting the car in front, and air bags all around.. these all play a role

 

[WoodyIsGoody]

Re safety.. weight alone is not adequate protection. Energy dissipation in crumple zones, advanced cruise control that keeps you in lane and prevents you from hitting the car in front, and air bags all around.. these all play a role

That's all true, good engineering can make a lighter car safer than a poorly engineered heavy car but, after that's been optimized, additional safety requires extra weight.

In 1999 I bought a Volvo S80 which is a large sedan. Very large by modern standards. It weighs just over 3600 lbs. which is surprisingly light for it's size and the rigidity of it's chassis. Volvo spent extra money on aluminum hood/trunk lids, wheels, high strength steel and engineering to keep weight down. When released it was one of the safest cars in the world. It had huge crumple zones with the only transversely mounted in-line 6 cyl. in the world. Still have it today and everything still works (it was loaded with doo-dads). It has about 170K on it.

 

[begreen]

France announcement today. No ICE by 2040.
https://www.theguardian.com/busines...petrol-diesel-cars-2040-emmanuel-macron-volvo