Lennox Warranty

[builderbob]

Just restudied the Lennox Montecito Estate literature in my search for a zc woodburning fireplace.

I see that Lennox warrnaty runs 5 years parts AND labor on important elements of the unit. And 2 years parts AND labor on a few parts (like ceramic glass I think) where they don't go 5 years. And the coverage years 5 thru 10, and then 10 thru 20 beats the competition.

It appears by far the best warranty coverage I have found on any brand zc woodburners.

This unit also has a decent viewing area, 15" x 31" which is important to us, and the firebox is 4.0 cubic feet which is not too big and bnot too small. A comfortable siz e for us.

It allows use of solidpack or aircooled chimney. We have decided we want solid pack to help insure best draw, and eliminate any condensation problems (as we do get a few dozen or more days or nights a year below freezing), as well as eliminate one more potential source of cold air infiltration into the house.

The Lennox literature is also straightforward about using the unit as emergency or supplemental heat for house, and not as the only heat source. Which coincides with our intended use.

And, perhaps more importantly, this unit is available from several *qualified* shops within 50 miles of where we live. So we can find a dealer we feel comfortable with.

I have seen some references to BIS products here, which is now Lennox owned, but I have not seen any comments on the BIS Tradition/Lennox Montecito Estate in particular.

Any satisfied customers out there care to comment?

builderbob

 

[bmstove.com]

Assuming Lennox makes it 10-20 years in the hearth industry, their warranty could be a good thing. Not meant to be a negative, just pointing out Lennox has not been in the hearth business very long. What if they look at their investments in 5 years and decide they did better selling heat pumps and marketing Dave in his overalls and abandon ship? Just asking.

 

[webbie]

A company the size of lennox would have a tough time running from warranties if they left the hearth biz. My opinion, of course, but this type of company relies on reputation to a large degree, and I don't think they would want the word getting out.

On the biz end, it is correct that their entry into the hearth business has not been as spectacular as they imagined, but this is a multi-billion dollar company and they do have the resources to stick it out if they desire.

The same question could be asked about a lot of companies in the hearth biz. It crossed my mind yesterday as to whether or not VC ever had to pay that 25 million or so that the patent suit (Vs. Dimplex?) awarded. This was in our trade mags right about the time that VC went to the teachers union. That's a lot of money, but perhaps they appealed it or can pay it off based on profit, etc.

Even if one of these large companies decided there was no money in it, chances are they could sell off their brands. In this case, the new owners of the brand usually stand behind the existing products as part of the contract.

Summary is that I don't think the average consumer can really make a decision based on something which may occur in 10-20 years.

 

[HarryBack]

I thought I read it was still in appeals, Craig.

 

[builderbob]

So, since Lennox bought out Security and The Lennox Montecito Estate *is* the Security BIS Tradition, does anyone think the Security BIS line of fireplaces and chimneys is ok.

Earlier on here, someone right away mentioned for me to take a look at the BIS Panarama I think.

And hasn't Security been in the chimney/stove business for something like 50 years, or more? Are Security chimneys a bunch of &%^%&? or are they a respected chimney?

I did email a question to Lennox technical about whether one should go air-cooled chimney or solid pack chimney based on where we live---and Lennox technical recommended solid pack---knowing the higher cost to this inquiring consumer could potentially kill a sale in the bud. I take that as a small piece of integrity.

So, anyone with experience with BIS Tradition or other BIS zc woodburning fireplaces?

builderbob

 

[david Lee]

BuilderBob,
What I am reading here is, the Lennox Product meets your:
1. Warranty requirement
2. Glass size requirement
3. Heating requirement
4. Dealer location requirement
5. Soild pack flue requirement
6. 100 year company
7. multi - billion dollar company

Go ahead dude, pull the trigger

Macey

 

[hearthtools]

Lennox will tell you solid pack because the want you to use their pipe. All the Manuals on the Lennox gas fireplaces to say
"These fireplaces are designed, tested and listed for operation and installation with, and only with, SecureVent Direct Vent Systems Components."

I don't see how they say they will warranty for over 10 years because last year they said they are no longer making parts for stoves over 10 years old. maybe that was just for Pellet, wood and gas stoves brands that they have acquired int he past 5 years and then have discontinued.

The new Lennox units look good. I have no first hand knowledge of the new product but if you have a REPUTABLE dealer near buy and it fits in your needs then a Lennox unit would be good for you.

However I recommend ONLY getting a fireplace unit that is rated as a wood stove heater (not a fireplace) that is EPA certified for June 1, 1990 standards.
Make sure the words
" U.S. ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION AGENCY
Certified to comply with July 1990 particulate emission standards."

 

[builderbob]

I am getting real close.

But still vacillating over the Napoleon NZ6000 High Country. My wife keeps commenting on how good the High Country "looks".

1) And I must say, I do kind of like the looks of the Napoleon too, and think I give the edge to Napoleon over the Lennox based just on looks. Plus it is the only one that sells a cast iron pot and hanger accessory to put inside the unit (aren't we shallow?)

2) The Napoleon does also meet our requirements for glass size (and I give it the slight edge over Lennox on glass size),
3) Also allows solid pack chimney, but has slight edge over Lennox in that you can choose the brand chimney (Lennox requires Security brand)
4) Napoleon is also available from multiple dealers in 50 mile radius---so a draw with Lennox on availability
5) Napoleon also meets/exceeds the heating requirement---another draw with Lennox
6) Napoleon also from a large longstanding reputable manufacturer---another draw
7) Lennox has big edge on warranty---5 years as opposed to 1 year parts AND labor.
8) Lennox has edge on "stated" efficiency and "stated" cleanness of burning. Napoleon doesn't tell.
9) Lennox somewhat lower cost than Napoleon, but a slightly smaller unit, so dollar for dollar a draw as to value per size.
10) As to customer satisfaction, I did find one very satisfied customer review on the Napoleon, and absolutely zero reviews on the Bis Tradition/Lennox Montecito Estate. So, Napoleon is somewhat an unknown in terms of "efficiency and cleanness" of burning, but BIS/Lennox is unknown in terms of very satisfied customers. And I do know of one person in my area who just installed a Napoleon in a new home. Another draw perhaps.

So it comes down to how important are "looks" to us, vs warranty.

This fireplace is going to be a central point in our new home and will contribute much to the "aura". So Looks are very important. But this is also going to be a "permanent" installation in our new home, so warranty is also important.

My own (perhaps way off reality) opinion after my research is: If RSF company made a unit that looks like the Napoleon, uses the Excel solid pack chimney, has the warranty of the Lennox, has the EPA cleanness ratings of the Fireplace Xrtordinair, and the straighforward owners manual of the RSF---that would be the *perfect* fireplace.

builderbob

 

[builderbob]

Lennox does not say "solid pack" chimney just because they require Security chimney. In fact, Lennox gives option of air-cooled or solid pack. And Security makes both. So requiring Security chimney has no bearing on whether to go air-cooled or solid pack. The Tech rep recommended solid pack over air-cooled based on where we live. The brand would have been Security either way.

As to how Lennox can say warranty for 10 years---well they said it---in print. In fact they said 20 years. How can RSF say 30 years? How can any of the brands say as long as they do.

Warrantys are really only for the "life" of the company of of the unit owner---whichever ends first!!

 

[builderbob]

The Lennox Montecito Estate is not a *new* product. It is simply the renamed/rebranded Security Bis Tradition model as lennox bought Security Chimneys Int'l Co. All the other BIS firplaces such as the Bis Ultima, Bis Ultra, etc also have their counterpart names under Lennox brand now too.

Security BIS fireplaces have been around for how long?

builderbob

 

[webbie]

BIS has been around since the 80's. In fact, they were arguably the first of their type to gain wide acceptance. The original models performed very well and had high customer satisfaction. Those models, as I remember, were 7" class A chimney only (guess)....

Perhaps the one downside at the time were relatively short burns, but they did heat to beat the band and most were not using this type of fireplace for 24/7 heating. Turn on the way back machine and we will remember that oil was about 80 cents a gallon!

 

[DiscoInferno]

This unit also has a decent viewing area, 15" x 31" which is important to us, and the firebox is 4.0 cubic feet which is not too big and bnot too small. A comfortable siz e for us.

4 cf is huge compared to what most of us use to heat full time. I'm "making do" with a 2cf BIS Ultima (AKA Lennox Brentwood) for 2000 sqft. I have the air-cooled chimney, btw. No draft problems, although granted my chimney is 25'. No air infiltration problems either, but since it's in an uninsulated chase the chimney is the least of the worries anyway (the plywood and siding are hardly air tight).

 

[builderbob]

So is your Ultima installed at your Maryland location or at the Michigan location? Your forum profile gives both locations. And the picture shows a nice cold-looking snowy scene. Is that the house the Ultima is in? Perhaps the air-cooled vs solid pack chimney is such an important consideration.

Thanks for the input on BIS experience.

builderbob

 

[builderbob]

OOPS! Should read: "Perhaps the air-cooled vs solid pack chimney is NOT such an important consideration."

 

[DiscoInferno]

So is your Ultima installed at your Maryland location or at the Michigan location? Your forum profile gives both locations. And the picture shows a nice cold-looking snowy scene. Is that the house the Ultima is in? Perhaps the air-cooled vs solid pack chimney is such an important consideration.

Thanks for the input on BIS experience.

builderbob

The BIS is in Maryland (DC area), which does get snow but nothing like in MI. This last winter it got down to single digits on several occasions, and it drafted fine. More typical is low 40's in the day, and 20's-30's at night, no problems.

In MI I have a non-EPA fireplace (Majestic) that also has an air-cooled chimney (triple wall vs. double for the BIS). That's a shorter chimney, maybe 18', and is also in an uninsulated chase, but it drafts fine. Granted it's not airtight, so maybe the type of chimney isn't so critical.