Look what showed up in my driveway yesterday!

[tjnamtiw]

How did your brother know that was the cause of the fire? How often did he have his chimney cleaned? Did he start his fire with a big wad of newspaper? Was his wood seasoned over a year? There can be a lot of causes of chimney fires. If you think your chimney flue is 600* in the middle of winter with a damped down fire, you are sadly mistaken.
I thought you said you never saw one on a wood stove but your brother had one?????

Like l said, you'll see a lot of people chime in with 'experiences' one way or the other even though they never used one.

 

[tjnamtiw]

From one supply house :"Constant Heat,Longer Burn. The automatic stabilizing effect on the fire will generally lengthen the duration of burn and maintain a more constant heat output. Research has also linked the use of barometric dampers with sustantial creosote reduction in the operation of woodstoves. (these findings must be kept in perspective, as woodstoves operated at extrememly slow burn rates can still produce dangerous levels of creosote, even when operated with a barometric damper.) Both coal and wood stoves will benefit from the intallation of a barometric draft control.

And right from this forum >

I assume that either:
1. You are taking the internal stovepipe temperatureor
2. This high temp on the pipe lasts only a short while.If you stove has a single wall steel top, then the temp should easily reach above 500 for parts of the burn. A good hot burn is 650-800 degrees. The stove pipe temp will vary greatly, depending on a few things:
1. how close to the stove you place the gauge
2. Type of wood
3. Amount of air
4. Strength of draft…and more.
If you have an overdraft situation, then you may be running a higher stack temp than you need. Solutions are to install either a manual or barometric damper in the stove pipe to slow things down. At the beginning stages of a fire, wood put off more gases (flames) which tend to be long and reach up into the flue causing higher temps. During the middle and later stages of the fire, more heat is in the embers and stack temps should drop.BTW, to add to a recent discussion of catalytic vs non-cat, cat stoves generally do not reach these high stack temps since the catalytic and baffles tend to squeeze the heat out of these gases, cooling them somewhat before they enter the stove pipe.Having some stove pipe exposed in the room, as in this case, also helps increase the efficiency of the stove.

 

[nate379]

His is on the oil boiler... in Maine you can have a wood stove and a oil burner on the same chimney.

It allowed cold air to get into the chimney and cause glaze creosote.

Chimney was cleaned every couple weeks... just the glaze creosote doesn't clean out with a brush... and he didn't know it was building up.

Whatever temps the flue is at with a fire, I can guarantee you that allowing room temperature air in at the bottom is going to be causing bad things.

How did your brother know that was the cause of the fire? How often did he have his chimney cleaned? Did he start his fire with a big wad of newspaper? Was his wood seasoned over a year? There can be a lot of causes of chimney fires. If you think your chimney flue is 600* in the middle of winter with a damped down fire, you are sadly mistaken.
I thought you said you never saw one on a wood stove but your brother had one?????

Like l said, you'll see a lot of people chime in with 'experiences' one way or the other even though they never used one.

 

[Pallet Pete]

That looks like a real nice stove and even better burning ! I bet it adds to the home feeling 1000 percent .

Pete

 

[Beetle-Kill]

I am VERY curious as to how this cook stove performs. I am concerned about the small fire box though, .48CF if my math is correct. Looking forward to updates, thanks.

 

[tjnamtiw]

I am VERY curious as to how this cook stove performs. I am concerned about the small fire box though, .48CF if my math is correct. Looking forward to updates, thanks.

Thanks to Pete, too. Yea, I have no grand illusions about all night burns with the small firebox burning wood. I'll just drink an extra bottle of water at bedtime like the Indians used to do so I wake up early to feed it. It heats up very quickly though and should be fun to cook on, which was one motive. I ordered some new cast iron pots last night.

While not a doomsdayer, I do have long term food storage when the inevitable happens at one of our container ship ports and a nuke is set off there. With food available and now a cook stove/heat source, I am one step closer to survival.

With that gloom behind me, I also make frequent trips to Pa and can bring back a few bags of coal each trip, which WILL last the night if necessary. I will put spare grates on the shelf, though, since this one is yet to be proven. It IS a wood/coal stove however.

 

[tjnamtiw]

His is on the oil boiler... in Maine you can have a wood stove and a oil burner on the same chimney.

It allowed cold air to get into the chimney and cause glaze creosote.

Chimney was cleaned every couple weeks... just the glaze creosote doesn't clean out with a brush... and he didn't know it was building up.

Whatever temps the flue is at with a fire, I can guarantee you that allowing room temperature air in at the bottom is going to be causing bad things.

I have never read an owner's manual for a coal, wood, or pellet stove that said it was OK to install into a flue being used by another appliance. Maybe Maine says it's OK but if the insurance company takes the time to read the manual, guess who is off the hook? Bad, bad idea.

What makes this situation much worse is that, if you read the barometric damper installation directions, it is to be placed as close as possible to the stove, not somewhere far away at the oil burner. The reason for putting it close to the stove is that, if you are burning improperly and producing creosote forming products, they will condense shortly after the damper. I've read where people experience such buildup immediately in the next section of pipe, which can be easily removed and cleaned or cleaned through the cleanout Tee. Your brother was doing everything wrong, sorry to say. I hope he had CO detectors down near that furnace too.

 

[nate379]

Like I said in the other post, the damper isn't for the stove, it's for the oil burner. Your setup is a little different obviously, but it's the same idea.
I don't see why you felt the need to make a personal attack without knowing the exact details though.

ALL I did was give some info about that sort of draft causing a creosote problem for my brother. Maybe it will work for you, maybe it won't... I don't really care either way, BUT I thought I would be helpful and let you know to at least keep an eye out.

Look at every photo on this web board and show me another install that is using an auto damper. Yours is the first I have seen.

Think about it, with a NORMAL stove draft control either the intake air is restricted or the exit air is restricted.

The auto damper doesn't do that. It makes a "leak" in the chimney, reducing the draft. The issue is that leak allows cold air in from the room.
That's fine with a "clean" burning appliance like an oil burner. With a wood stove, I would be very worried that it's loading the chimney with creosote, like what happened to my brother.

I have never read an owner's manual for a coal, wood, or pellet stove that said it was OK to install into a flue being used by another appliance. Maybe Maine says it's OK but if the insurance company takes the time to read the manual, guess who is off the hook? Bad, bad idea.

What makes this situation much worse is that, if you read the barometric damper installation directions, it is to be placed as close as possible to the stove, not somewhere far away at the oil burner. The reason for putting it close to the stove is that, if you are burning improperly and producing creosote forming products, they will condense shortly after the damper. I've read where people experience such buildup immediately in the next section of pipe, which can be easily removed and cleaned or cleaned through the cleanout Tee. Your brother was doing everything wrong, sorry to say. I hope he had CO detectors down near that furnace too.

 

[tjnamtiw]

Nate, I didn't intend to attack anyone! I know the damper was there for the oil stove. I'm just saying that the situation your brother was in was a losing proposition. He was dumping creosote gases into a cold chimney.

this is from Inspection News, a pub for home inspectors. > "Unless the presence of the baro. damper voids the warranty and listing, I would leave it in place but make sure it is adjusted properly. While not common with woodstoves, they are a good idea and even recommended by the National Comfort Institute's CO and Combustion cert. course. A baro. damper regulates the draft in the chimney. It prevents the stove from running away causing an unsafe high draft condition. Converesely, when the stack gases cool and begin to form creosote, the baro. damper closes so more heat from the appliance will warm the chimney an re-establish a reasonable draft. You need a manometer to set a baro., usually between -0.04to-0.06 inches of water column.
Aside from leveling out the burn cycle for a more predictable burn, the baro. instroduces dilution air to the stack, which can reduce creosote formation. "
I agree that they are not often seen on wood stoves but can't defend why not given the info above and the fact that they never let the flue get hot enough to ignite any creosote that forms before it is removed. I DO intend to also burn coal in the unit so that will greatly benefit from a constant draft setting. In either case, my main goal was to get maximum burn time out of the very small fire box. If the barodamper doesn't work out, it's easy to remove. The pipes above it are length adjustable to replace it.
Enough said, I believe.

 

[rdust]

Barometric Damper on a wood stove is a bad idea and I'll never be convinced otherwise. A steady draft on a wood stove is a lot less critical than on an oil furnace. If you are unfortunate and have a chimney fire you're going to feed that fire with a nice oxygen rich mixture! It's obviously your choice to make though.

Either way the stove is way cool!

 

[tjnamtiw]

Barometric Damper on a wood stove is a bad idea and I'll never be convinced otherwise. A steady draft on a wood stove is a lot less critical than on an oil furnace. If you are unfortunate and have a chimney fire you're going to feed that fire with a nice oxygen rich mixture! It's obviously your choice to make though.

Either way the stove is way cool!

Thanks, rdust. That is a good observation to be taken to heart. The one statement in my above post about the damper never letting the flue get hot enough for a creosote fire would be true as long as you don't try burning trash or start your fire with a load of paper. I always use fatwood, which is plentiful out back. The damper certainly has its merits but there's a lot of negative witchcraft conceptions out there to overcome and probably never will be. People just like to load down the wood burner, run it like hell, and then hope it makes it through the night. No more thought is put into it than that in many cases.

Happy burning

 

[DexterDay]

I am one for using an inline damper (if needed), but the idea is to keep the flue gases hot until it exits the flue. The cooling of the gases is what creates creosote. So that Baro Damper may have negative effects (there are positives), but for as small as the Firebox is, I would probably try it without the Baro and see how it operates.

Keeping the gases Hot is my Main Goal. Cleaned my chimney twice this season and have less than a Coffee can full (combined). Mostly brownish ash, but the top 3 ft of Class A outside has some light flaky creosote.

My 2 pennies....

Beautiful stove. Cant wait to see some fire in it and some Bacon frying on the top....

 

[tjnamtiw]

I am one for using an inline damper (if needed), but the idea is to keep the flue gases hot until it exits the flue. The cooling of the gases is what creates creosote. So that Baro Damper may have negative effects (there are positives), but for as small as the Firebox is, I would probably try it without the Baro and see how it operates.

Keeping the gases Hot is my Main Goal. Cleaned my chimney twice this season and have less than a Coffee can full (combined). Mostly brownish ash, but the top 3 ft of Class A outside has some light flaky creosote.

My 2 pennies....

Beautiful stove. Cant wait to see some fire in it and some Bacon frying on the top....

Ummm, I can smell the bacon now!
I went back a highlighted a few things I found about the damper that point toward less creosote. Kind of interesting and I'm always a tinkerer...... I know keeping an overnight fire in that little box is a pipe dream for sure. I hope to bring some chestnut coal back with me from my upcoming trip. Then the damper will definitely help to keep a steady draw. I can see advantages for a cook stove with wood or coal in keeping a more steady cooking temp but less for a regular wood burner unless he is complaining of using up wood too fast. He's got excessive draft and throwing all his heat out the flue. In a nighttime damped way down situation, you're making creosote whether you like it or not. It's another one of those eternal verbal battles that is never solved. Kind of like OAK VS NO OAK.

 

[DexterDay]

Ummm, I can smell the bacon now!
I went back a highlighted a few things I found about the damper that point toward less creosote. Kind of interesting and I'm always a tinkerer...... I know keeping an overnight fire in that little box is a pipe dream for sure. I hope to bring some chestnut coal back with me from my upcoming trip. Then the damper will definitely help to keep a steady draw. I can see advantages for a cook stove with wood or coal in keeping a more steady cooking temp but less for a regular wood burner unless he is complaining of using up wood too fast. He's got excessive draft and throwing all his heat out the flue. In a nighttime damped way down situation, you're making creosote whether you like it or not. It's another one of those eternal verbal battles that is never solved. Kind of like OAK VS NO OAK.

I get it.... Just adding my thoughts. I have an inline Probe thermometer about 18" up and the idea is to keep the gases between 400° and 800° (maybe 900°).

I have read many threads in the Hearth room where people had more creo down low because of air leaks (at the connector on the stove and/or every joint). So lots of people here have sealed up the gaps to keep the cooler air from infiltrating the flue.

As long as the wood is seasoned ( 1-3 yrs depending on species) and the temps are kept high enough, then there is much less chance to have any creosote. Lots of burners here have little to no creo. Good wood and good burning habits = Safe and happy stove.

Todays firebox sizes (3 cu ft and larger), it easy to keep the flue gases hot and also maintain a 10 hr burn (thats just with my stove, Blaze Kings can go 24's). These new stoves dont allow the user to shut the air all the way down. My Englander has 3 air inlets. The Primary (I control) and then the Secondary air for the reburn tubes and the Doghouse air at the front of the firebox (both are unregulated and I have no control over). Thats why they are EPA approved. The stove can still smolder, but not nearly as much as Smoke Dragons in the past..

Anyways. Just sharing the little I have learned. I know you have been burning probably longer than I have been alive. So your past experience and what you see when you finally get it hooked up, will tell you what needs done...

Better get out and get some Wood C/S/S...

 

[tjnamtiw]

Yea, Dexter, I may be old but I still am able to admit when I screwed up! If the damper gives me bad results or bad vibes, it's coming out. It's just when you read the technical side of the equation, it makes sense and when inspector literature and safety literature says it actually helps, then one has to at least give it a try.
As to the air leaks causing creosote further down, I did read that using the damper under conditions where creosote is going to form no matter what you are doing, then it will form in the stove pipe just above the damper. If that's true, then I would welcome that as a much easier way to clean. Again, the proof is in the pudding or beef brisket, in this case. http://papadutch.home.comcast.net/~papadutch/dutch-oven-recipe-bbqbrisket.htm

Oh, and it sounds like you have plenty of experience to go around too. In my younger days, my neighbor and I would spend many weekends cutting and splitting. I have no idea how many truck loads but it was a LOT! Two trucks loaded to the hilt every weekend for most of the winter getting ready for next year.

 

[tjnamtiw]

Well, it was rainy, damp, and cold here today so it was a perfect excuse to fire up the cook stove and give it a run. As you can see from the pictures, I baked some oat bread, which is absolutely delicious even though I didn't get the aluminum foil on top in time to stop some slight burning. Held steady at 350 to 380 for the 20 minute bake. I also got a Dwyer meter and checked the draft. Without the baro damper, my draft was .13 inches! That's with the air inlet restricted! I used the damper to tone it down to a reasonable .05". At the high draft, the oven temp shot up to 500 degrees so it would take a very small fire to maintain a reasonable oven temp without the damper. It was much easier to control with a constant draft.

 

[mikepinto65]

Hey tjnamtiw,

I couldnt believe your thread when I found it just now. I just got off the phone with Geno @ Sopka. I will soon have delivery of my new Alma Mons cook stove (http://www.sopkainc.com/index.php/product/alma-mons#twoj_fragment1-1)!
I thought I surly would have been the first to have one of these here !

Have you had any opportunity's to make anything other than that mouth watering bread?

 

[tjnamtiw]

Hey tjnamtiw,

I couldnt believe your thread when I found it just now. I just got off the phone with Geno @ Sopka. I will soon have delivery of my new Alma Mons cook stove (http://www.sopkainc.com/index.php/product/alma-mons#twoj_fragment1-1)!
I thought I surly would have been the first to have one of these here !

Have you had any opportunity's to make anything other than that mouth watering bread?

Congrats! I liked the looks of the Alma Mons too. Can't wait to see your photos and comments. No, I just made bread and a peach pie last night. I have all my cast iron pans hung up and ready to go but haven't talked the 'boss' into making anything yet. PLUS it's 90+ degrees here every day for the last week and all of next week! At least the basement is cooler but still............ The first cool spell and breakfast WILL be made down there. It's ready to cook on the top in about 15 minutes with surface temps about 600 degrees. I still have to learn to anticipate and throttle back sooner. There definitely is a learning curve to cooking/baking on it but, heck, that's part of the fun.
I am really impressed with the thought that goes into making my stove. There's a lot of insulation in the key spots. Cleaning will be a breeze since the entire top lifts off as one piece. It sits on a asbestos-like rope all the way around to seal it. There's also a cleanout door below the oven.
Remember that we demand pictures!!

 

[mikepinto65]

You will get them as soon as it arrives . I got it for a great deal, $875. The only downside is that the flue is on the left hand side (so oven on the left, firebox on the right) ...Only one Geno had left and he did not see anymore coming in anytime soon. I figured, even though its very backwards to me, for the price it was worth it.

 

[tjnamtiw]

You will get them as soon as it arrives . I got it for a great deal, $875. The only downside is that the flue is on the left hand side (so oven on the left, firebox on the right) ...Only one Geno had left and he did not see anymore coming in anytime soon. I figured, even though its very backwards to me, for the price it was worth it.

That IS a great deal! Geno 'treated me' very well also. He's great to deal with. He had a Magnum floor demo model he was willing to let go for $2000 even. That's $700 off and free shipping!

 

[mikepinto65]

I was so tempted by the Magnum but, even for that kind of discount I dont think I could justify it for a cook stove though. Too bad, that thing is a looker for sure!

 

[tjnamtiw]

I was so tempted by the Magnum but, even for that kind of discount I dont think I could justify it for a cook stove though. Too bad, that thing is a looker for sure!

Yea, it was too big for my little basement room but if I were building a house or an addition, I'd make sure I would plan for one of them. It looks great, cooks great, and heats too (42,000 btu's of wood or coal heat).