Lopi Fireplace Insert — insulation

[Giaman]

Hey all, new to the forum today, long time reader.

I just had installed a Lopi medium flush insert, a stove with the “convection chamber” or “air jacket” (i.e. a metal jacket around the actual insert with a gap for air to flow thru with a blower). I was wondering if I could insulate around the outer metal jacket with rockwool—so I called Travis Industries (maker of the stove) to ask, and was told that it’s not designed to be insulated like that, as it could create “hot spots” that could damage the stove.

I’m disappointed in the answer as I definitely lose a lot of heat through my external chimney/fireplace (even with block-off insulation and insulation on the walls of the old fireplace), and I know others on this forum have had great results insulating around their inserts. I also can’t imagine how insulating around the OUTER jacket could increase heat enough to mess up the stove (perhaps the employee I spoke to misunderstood me?)

Wondering if anyone with a Lopi insert has insulated like this, or if you all think I should ignore the manufacture and do it anyway thoughts?

 

[bholler]

I insulate around all inserts I install on exterior walls but don't pack it in around the stove allow some air space

 

[Giaman]

Thanks @bholler ! I will do that, I already did the floor and sides, which at least covered up bare wood on the floor. My stove has sort of a built-in gap (where my pinky and thumb are) around the whole stove, so I thought I could just put insulation touching the outer metal panels. But I guess you leave a gap even outside of the outer panels on the stoves you install; I’ll do the same. I wish my installer had done all this in the first place. They left exposed wood…

 

[begreen]

They left exposed wood…

Where?

 

[Giaman]

Where?

@begreen On the floor (under the roxul that I put down, that I’m lifting with my thumb so you can see the wood) and also where I’m pointing on the lower left wall (which I also covered w roxul). Also on the other side.

 

[bholler]

Your install is very very unsafe please do not use it. An insert is meant to be inserted into a working wood burning fireplace it absolutely cannot be set on wood

 

[bholler]

You say a professional installer did this???

 

[Giaman]

Your install is very very unsafe please do not use it. An insert is meant to be inserted into a working wood burning fireplace it absolutely cannot be set on wood

They

You say a professional installer did this???

Yes, a large, well known company in the area installed it. @bholler @begreen . It was a working fireplace before, though they cut away a lot of the metal box, etc., to get down to the wood floor. They then put two thick sheets of some insulating board on top of the wood floor, then put the stove on top of that (however the wood floor was still exposed to the sides, as my pic showed). To be honest I was sketched out about having exposed wood 3 inches away from the stove, so I asked them about if, but they said it was fine. There are other issues too…. Ugh.. I guess I’ll call a different company to have them come look at it

 

[bholler]

They

Yes, a large, well known company in the area installed it. @bholler @begreen . It was a working fireplace before, though they cut away a lot of the metal box, etc., to get down to the wood floor. They then put two thick sheets of some insulating board on top of the wood floor, then put the stove on top of that (however the wood floor was still exposed to the sides, as my pic showed). To be honest I was sketched out about having exposed wood 3 inches away from the stove, so I asked them about if, but they said it was fine. There are other issues too…. Ugh.. I guess I’ll call a different company to have them come look at it

Please take them to court. Crap like this makes the rest of us look bad and they put your house and family at serious risk. Where are you located in NJ. You can pm me if you want. I would gladly serve as an expert witness if you do take them to court.

 

[Giaman]

Please take them to court. Crap like this makes the rest of us look bad and they put your house and family at serious risk.

Funny enough, my wife and I are both lawyers (we work on Wall Street doing securities/tech, so not anything similar to this kind of dispute). But the last thing I want to do is go to court over this.. maybe I’ll start with a demand letter.. I’ve already made them come back out to “fix” the install (other issues). But first I’m going to bring in a different company to check it out. They also messed up attaching the flue to the stove.. I don’t know if they used the wrong cement or didn’t mix it correctly or what, but it cracked and fell completely off (I have since redone it with the proper furnace cement).

 

[bholler]

Funny enough, my wife and I are both lawyers (we work on Wall Street doing securities/tech, so not anything similar to this kind of dispute). But the last thing I want to do is go to court over this.. maybe I’ll start with a demand letter.. I’ve already made them come back out to “fix” the install (other issues). But first I’m going to bring in a different company to check it out. They also messed up attaching the flue to the stove.. I don’t know if they used the wrong cement or didn’t mix it correctly or what, but it cracked and fell completely off (I have since redone it with the proper furnace cement).

The fact that it needs furnace cement at all tells me they didn't do it properly. I hope you reconsider taking them to court. What they did is completely wrong and showed no concern at all for your safety. You paid them to come in destroy your fireplace and install an extreme fire risk.

 

[begreen]

I'm just stepping into this and catching up, but holy cow, this is anything but professional. If there was a fire due to this installation it would be criminal. Just to reiterate, this is not safe to burn in! Period. It is a seriously botched installation. I am really sorry that you are having to deal with this but glad you checked in here. At this point, there is no fix. The insert can not be used here. The only thing that can happen now is a complete replacement with a new Zero Clearance fireplace or maybe a tearout and alcove installation with a freestanding stove.

You'll need to bring in some local experts to document what has happened here including a fire or mechanical inspector. Fixing it properly and safely now means a replacement rebuild and that will be expensive.

 

[PaulOinMA]

I pulled a building permit to replace one insert with another. Had it inspected. My installer said it wasn't needed and he's never done it. Are permits needed in NJ. Did they pull a permit?

As mentioned there are hacks out there. Glad you posted in here.

I posted a house fire that destroyed a new house near me in MA. Fire inspector believes was faulty install last I read. I will post the link tomorrow.

I have learned a lot since I joined here.

 

[Giaman]

There was a permit, and an inspector did look at it halfway thru the install (I think in NJ the inspector mainly checks/cares about the insert-flue connection). I asked a different company today and they told me it is acceptable to have my specific insert on a combustible floor (wood)… they said it’s designed for it. The user manual apparently agrees; it says it’s OK if there is fireproof insulation directly underneath the insert between the wood (which they did do).. however the manual also says to NOT remove and floor material/masonry from the preexisting fireplace.. which they also did do. It makes me uneasy but apparently the insert on the wood is technically OK.

That said, the installation was still botched, as they messed up the insert placement/front panel, which would fall off when opening the damper (they came back, apologized profusely for it, and fixed it). They also did not put any insulation around the insert, leading to a lot of cold air from the chimney rushing into the room (and the visible wood which freaked me out). They also did a bad job with the furnace cement at the insert-flue connection, which cleary was mixed/cured incorrectly, and cracked off completely shortly after install (the manual install instructions say it’s crucial to put furnace cement there—I redid it myself correctly with high quality premixed furnace cement). And other minor things. Anyway, one big headache I’m dealing with but at least I think the insert on wood isn’t some huge fire hazard, and the company has so far acknowledged its mistakes, apologized, and came out to fix ‘em. Thoughts? Does this insert-on-wood thing make sense?

 

[begreen]

The user manual apparently agrees; it says it’s OK if there is fireproof insulation directly underneath the insert between the wood (which they did do).

Where does it say this? It sounds like you are reading the section on the hearth in front of the insert, not under the insert. Please have anyone that is telling you this stuff to back it up with documentation. Here is what the manual says for your insert when being installed in a zero clearance fireplace.

The damper ("A") and grate ("B") must be removed (see illustration below). The smoke shelf ("C"), internal baffles ("D"), screen ("E"), and metal or glass doors ("F") may be removed (if applicable). The masonry lining ("G"), insulation ("H"), and any structured rigid frame members (metal sides, floor, door frame, face of the fireplace, etc. – "I") may not be removed or altered.

Based on what has been shown here so far, who knows what other errors there are. We can not tell this over the internet. Do you know what the make and model of the fireplace is? That is another area that needs to be checked. Many ZC fireplace manufacturers explicitly forbid insert installation.

 

[bholler]

There was a permit, and an inspector did look at it halfway thru the install (I think in NJ the inspector mainly checks/cares about the insert-flue connection). I asked a different company today and they told me it is acceptable to have my specific insert on a combustible floor (wood)… they said it’s designed for it. The user manual apparently agrees; it says it’s OK if there is fireproof insulation directly underneath the insert between the wood (which they did do).. however the manual also says to NOT remove and floor material/masonry from the preexisting fireplace.. which they also did do. It makes me uneasy but apparently the insert on the wood is technically OK.

That said, the installation was still botched, as they messed up the insert placement/front panel, which would fall off when opening the damper (they came back, apologized profusely for it, and fixed it). They also did not put any insulation around the insert, leading to a lot of cold air from the chimney rushing into the room (and the visible wood which freaked me out). They also did a bad job with the furnace cement at the insert-flue connection, which cleary was mixed/cured incorrectly, and cracked off completely shortly after install (the manual install instructions say it’s crucial to put furnace cement there—I redid it myself correctly with high quality premixed furnace cement). And other minor things. Anyway, one big headache I’m dealing with but at least I think the insert on wood isn’t some huge fire hazard, and the company has so far acknowledged its mistakes, apologized, and came out to fix ‘em. Thoughts? Does this insert-on-wood thing make sense?

The insert on wood absolutely is a huge fire hazard as is an insert in a hacked up zero clearance fireplace.

 

[Giaman]

Where does it say this? It sounds like you are reading the section on the hearth in front of the insert, not under the insert. Please have anyone that is telling you this stuff to back it up with documentation. Here is what the manual says for your insert when being installed in a zero clearance fireplace.

The damper ("A") and grate ("B") must be removed (see illustration below). The smoke shelf ("C"), internal baffles ("D"), screen ("E"), and metal or glass doors ("F") may be removed (if applicable). The masonry lining ("G"), insulation ("H"), and any structured rigid frame members (metal sides, floor, door frame, face of the fireplace, etc. – "I") may not be removed or altered.

Based on what has been shown here so far, who knows what other errors there are. We can not tell this over the internet. Do you know what the make and model of the fireplace is? That is another area that needs to be checked. Many ZC fireplace manufacturers explicitly forbid insert installation.

You’re correct, I was reading the section on hearth requirements in front of the insert—in my very limited stove knowledge, I misunderstood it. I’m going to call Travis Industries and ask them directly. Like I said, I was pretty sketched out when they placed it on the wood (with a sheet or 2 of insulated pad directly between), so I’m definitely not going to fire the stove or anything until I get clear confirmation from the manufacturer. I’ll also look into which ZC fireplace I have—to your point the Lopi insert manual only allows a few manufacturers of ZC fireplaces.

 

[PaulOinMA]

Here's the house fire I mentioned. New build owned by a firefighter. Only second use of appliance. Bad chimney pipe installation.

New home fire in MA

On the new this morning. New home. Fire suspected to be from wood stove. Will follow to see if there is a follow-up story. "The newly constructed home belongs to an Acton firefighter ... 'Talking with the homeowner, it’s a new home. They actually just moved in, the second time using the...

www.hearth.com

 

[Giaman]

Here's the house fire I mentioned. New build owned by a firefighter. Only second use of appliance. Bad chimney pipe installation.

New home fire in MA

On the new this morning. New home. Fire suspected to be from wood stove. Will follow to see if there is a follow-up story. "The newly constructed home belongs to an Acton firefighter ... 'Talking with the homeowner, it’s a new home. They actually just moved in, the second time using the...

www.hearth.com

@PaulOinMA @begreen @bholler

I contacted Travis Industries and sent them pics of the install. Travis Industries echoed what you all said: that the insert was installed incorrectly and is an extreme fire risk. So thank you all so much for sounding the alarm for this—I came into this forum asking about insulation and instead you all potentially saved me from disaster.

Travis Industries is taking this very, very seriously and is making their Northeast rep handle it with the dealer. Travis Industries is confident that this will be “made right.” I’m not crazy about having the same dealer re-do this whole thing, but at the least I will insist on having different employees handle the re-install. I would imagine the re-install would involve a new fire box and significantly more work than the original “install.” What a mess.

 

[bholler]

@PaulOinMA @begreen @bholler

I contacted Travis Industries and sent them pics of the install. Travis Industries echoed what you all said: that the insert was installed incorrectly and is an extreme fire risk. So thank you all so much for sounding the alarm for this—I came into this forum asking about insulation and instead you all potentially saved me from disaster.

Travis Industries is taking this very, very seriously and is making their Northeast rep handle it with the dealer. Travis Industries is confident that this will be “made right.” I’m not crazy about having the same dealer re-do this whole thing, but at the least I will insist on having different employees handle the re-install. I would imagine the re-install would involve a new fire box and significantly more work than the original “install.” What a mess.

Good I honestly hope they make them fix it properly then pull their dealership agreement.

 

[begreen]

I’m not crazy about having the same dealer re-do this whole thing, but at the least I will insist on having different employees handle the re-install. I would imagine the re-install would involve a new fire box and significantly more work than the original “install.” What a mess.

I'm glad you contacted Lopi. Keep documenting everything. There is no reinstall in this case. The original ZC fireplace is destroyed. The only options are to replace it with a new fireplace like something in Travis's FPX line, or tear everything out and put in a freestanding wood stove with a new chimney system.

 

[PaulOinMA]

BTW, I have a little Lopi Answer insert. Like it a lot!

I mentioned that I have learned a lot on here. Principally, I learned just how much I didn't know.

 

[Giaman]

To keep you all updated on this saga (and in case you are still interested), Travis Industries reached out directly to my dealer, and I then got a call from the dealer where they profusely apologized and said they were shocked/horrified by the pics of the install, cannot believe this happened, etc etc etc. The employees who did this install were apparently already fired (unrelated to my install), but the dealer was unaware they had done anything “like this”—I got the sense the installers were possibly subcontractors, and now the dealer has to do damage control.

I also told the dealer that now that they are aware of the safety issues from the fired employees, they are on notice and may face serious liability if anything bad happens at the other installs, so they better do an audit of other work done—that’s the lawyer in me talkin’. I actually told them this as a courtesy, and not in a threatening way.

The owners of the dealer (again, this is a large, reputable dealer in the area) are coming to my house to take a look and “do whatever they can to make this right.” So I’m glad they are appearing to live up to the reputation, though I naturally remain skeptical. Still disturbed about the whole thing, but glad I don’t have to drag anybody to court—I do enough of that at my day job.

 

[PaulOinMA]

I would be checking all the installs they did, if I were the dealer. Has to do that from a future liability perspective.

Edit: Oh, duh, that's your second paragraph.

 

[Giaman]

Yup they indicated that’s what they are going to be doing. Just thinking about it, I think there may even be criminal liability here if there’s a fire resulting from a faulty install, now that they (meaning the dealer) are aware. Wild stuff.