Monitoring Electricity Use...

[woodgeek]

After I put in electric heat in 2008, I called the utility, and got my juice at half price in the winter. That ended a couple years back.

The difference, my PECO/Exelon utility had a lot of nukes....and it doesn't pay to throttle them back, so they have too much power in the winter.

Interestingly, most of all the 'pumped storage' hydro facilities in the US were built by nuke vendors, so they could store nighttime power and sell it during the daytime peak. 20 years ago.

Sometimes no throttle-ability is as problematic as intermittancy.

 

[velvetfoot]

It seems around here they're blaming in part natural gas supply. Since the utilities were forced to divest generation the only plants being built are gas plants which can meet emissions levels and are cheaper to build. Now there is marketing more natural gas. Alas, gas transmission might not be up to the task and hence the higher winter prices for gas. Or maybe that's all BS and they're just gouging us for all we're worth and divestiture wasn't such a great idea.

 

[Doug MacIVER]

read somewhere that last winters excess demand for power was 92% supplied by coal producing plants. not gonna happen in the future. with the coming el nino, next winter could be a replay for the US. good for those who are self sufficient, bad for the rest of us.http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/11/business/energy-environment/coal-to-the-rescue-this-time.html?_r=0

 

[woodgeek]

I'm bracing for the response to BO's impending 'Climate Speech'.

 

[Doug MacIVER]

here is one projection for last winter http://www.ngsa.org/download/FINAL Executive Summary.pdf here is what happened http://www.aga.org/Newsroom/news-re...as-Met-the-Challenge-of-Winter-2013-2014.aspx 27% increase in demand.

 

[semipro]

Highbeam said: ↑
There is a cool device, I forget the name, that acts to replace the pressure tanks with a funky orifice and one very small tank. What it does is convert your pump into a variable flow rate pump by throttling the pipe size where your old pressure tanks used to be. Centrifugal pumps can dead head, and when they do, use little electric. Easier on the pump, easier on the well, and maybe lower power consumption. It's a constant pressure device.

"AquaGenie" http://02ea10f.netsolhost.com/website/jacuzzibros/aquagenie.html
There are other vendors with the same tech now also.
Had one at our place but it died.

 

[Ashful]

"AquaGenie" http://02ea10f.netsolhost.com/website/jacuzzibros/aquagenie.html
There are other vendors with the same tech now also.
Had one at our place but it died.

Seems like a good idea for that very infrequent extended use (eg. three or four showers per household per day), but a very bad idea for the 10,000 times per day someone turns on a sink to fill a glass with water, wash their hands, rinse a dish, or flush a toilet. No way in hell my pump would cycle less with this device, versus a pressure tank.

Combining a device like this with a pressure tank, to have the best of both worlds, would be a possible solution. However, their marketing implies scrapping the pressure tank altogether?

 

[semipro]

Seems like a good idea for that very infrequent extended use (eg. three or four showers per household per day), but a very bad idea for the 10,000 times per day someone turns on a sink to fill a glass with water, wash their hands, rinse a dish, or flush a toilet. No way in hell my pump would cycle less with this device, versus a pressure tank.

Combining a device like this with a pressure tank, to have the best of both worlds, would be a possible solution. However, their marketing implies scrapping the pressure tank altogether?

Just to be clear I'm not a proponent, just providing a reference to (maybe) clarify Highbeam's mention.
The one at our place was installed with a small (1 gal.) pressure tank. This then fed into a much large pressure tank which didn't make a lot of sense.
Highbeam may have instead been referring to the device here: http://cyclestopvalves.com/index2.html
There's been a lot of discussion at this site and others about the efficacy of these devices.

The addition of the Jacuzzi device to our system, I suspect, was an attempt to allow our system to run more efficiently as both a supply for domestic drinking water as well as a heat source/sink for our ground source HVAC system (GSHP). I say attempt because I don't think it worked well. I am modifying our system currently to provide relatively low pressure water to the GSHP via the submersible well pump (~30 PSI) and higher pressure water for domestic use using a booster pump. The GSHP needs flow not pressure so having the submersible pump provide it water at 60+ PSI, which is what's required for the plumbing in our tall house, seemed to be a waste of energy. I'm hoping that converting to a dual pressure system will use less power overall.

 

[Woodman37]

I've never heard of monitoring electric usage this way and find all this extremely interesting. I can see myself for sure getting one of these monitors and being completely obsessed with it. I learn so much here

 

[Highbeam]

I had only read about the device, yes cyclestop valve, on the plumbing forum and found it interesting but have never installed one. My system uses four 80 gallon expansion tanks to serve three homes.

Had to replace the batteries on the display of my efergy. It is much easier to read now and removing the batteries did not dump the cumulative data such as average kwh per day.

 

[Where2]

I've never heard of monitoring electric usage this way and find all this extremely interesting. I can see myself for sure getting one of these monitors and being completely obsessed with it.

In that case, never get a PV system. 10 months after mine went online I still look at it almost daily to see how much free energy fell on my roof so far today... Don't ask me how many widgets I have for measuring how much power I've consumed, I've got a collection.

 

[semipro]

Don't ask me how many widgets I have for measuring how much power I've consumed, I've got a collection.

It becomes an obsession, kind of like hypermiling for houses.

 

[Ashful]

I wonder, then... after the cost of equipment and all your associated gadgets / toys, how much money have you saved?

 

[maple1]

My last power bill was down around $20/mo from the same period the year before when I wasn't monitoring.

We don't use a whole lot to start with - that brought it to $90/mo at 0.18/kwh gross.

Someone such as yourself with large consumption has potential for much larger savings.

Especially if you get a HPWH or two.

(I would have had a Nyletherm long ago if I didn't have the capability to do our DHW with wood year round. I still might if this summer shows potential of being a warm & humid one here.)

 

[Slow1]

I wonder, then... after the cost of equipment and all your associated gadgets / toys, how much money have you saved?

Hmm... isn't that a lot like asking how much I've saved burning wood once I consider cost of the axes, truck, saw ....

However, I will say that while I've gone through some 'toys' for energy monitoring (Kill-A-Watt, TED5000), it hasn't been as bad as cutting wood. In terms of $savings - I think I have reduced our power consumption by about 50% since starting, but most of this has had trade-offs. For example, drying almost all our clothes on a line has majorly reduced our power consumption, but at the cost of time to hang, but has other benefits (My wife who resisted at first will now get upset if I drop things in the dryer to 'finish' as she likes the reduced wear and second chance for stains that line drying gives).

 

[Ashful]

Hmm... isn't that a lot like asking how much I've saved burning wood once I consider cost of the axes, truck, saw ....

Perhaps in some cases, it is. I can say that I would still burn some wood, even if it were not saving me money, because I enjoy felling and splitting, and having a fire in the stove. I certainly wouldn't be doing it on the same scale, though...

However, at least in my case, I can save maybe $5k per year in burning wood. Since I already owned a truck, and have obtained almost all of my wood for free (actually, much of it delivered right off the lot adjacent to my own), my only investment was $2k for saws and gear, and $4k for my second stove install. I saved $3500 last year alone, and that was limited by the fact that I ran out of wood in February. Given the appetite of two 3.0 cu.ft. stoves running 24/7 from mid/late-October, I'm really struggling to get enough seasoned wood prep'd on schedule. Think 10 cords per year...

 

[Where2]

I wonder, then... after the cost of equipment and all your associated gadgets / toys, how much money have you saved?

It's difficult to tell at my house. My last electric bill was $34.43 for an all electric house where I'm still using the clothes dryer almost daily. Between the 651kWh my PV system generated and the 300kWh I bought from the grid, I'm probably down $15/mo based on what I consumed in the same month over the past two years, but honestly every little bit helps.

 

[Ashful]

I'm probably down $15/mo based on what I consumed in the same month over the past two years, but honestly every little bit helps.

True, but what were your total install costs, including all associated gadgetry?

 

[Grisu]

True, but what were your total install costs, including all associated gadgetry?

Does it matter? The saved fossil fuels are more important by far than the $ numbers. What is even $1 billion worth when there is no oil, gas, and coal anymore and we wrecked our climate?

 

[Ashful]

What is even $1 billion worth when there is no oil, gas, and coal anymore and we wrecked or climate?

$1 billion of yours, or mine? No need to go dragging your politics into this simple question of finance, Grisu.

 

[Grisu]

$1 billion of yours, or mine? No need to go dragging your politics into this simple question of finance, Grisu.

That WAS a question of finance: What will be the purchasing power of our currency when we cannot produce the products anymore we want to consume? I am looking at the real return on investment and a bit beyond just my own little life.

 

[begreen]

Sounds like this one has been thoroughly discussed, stirred and derailed. Closing shop.

 

[begreen]

Reopening at maple1's request. Please stay on topic which is monitoring home energy usage. Save the politics and off topic opinions for the ashcan.

 

[maple1]

Thanks begreen.

I was kind of hoping this thread would maybe get people looking at their consumptions, and help them in where & how to look for ways to cut it - much I as looked at mine. These monitoring devices are pretty darn useful and will help you save money beyond their nominal costs. So please share your monitoring & saving stories - and save the other talk for other places.

 

[Grisu]

Thanks begreen.

I was kind of hoping this thread would maybe get people looking at their consumptions, and help them in where & how to look for ways to cut it - much I as looked at mine. These monitoring devices are pretty darn useful and will help you save money beyond their nominal costs. So please share your monitoring & saving stories - and save the other talk for other places.

I am totally with you. The thread should be about saving energy and not about financial gains or the best ways to save money.

As to my consumption, our utility installed smart meters a bit more than a year ago. I can see our hourly electricity use. The "base load" with no one home is about 100 W per hour for approx. 2.5 kWh per day. That's mostly the fridge plus some minor stuff (clocks, WiFi etc.). During the summer we use about 8 to 10 kWh per day total (no AC) for 250 to 300 kWh per month. However, we certainly "cheat" a bit as cooking, hot water and clothes dryer are all done with natural gas. During the summer that adds up to 9 to 10 ccf, that would be the equivalent of another 250 to 300 kWh in electricity for 500 to 600 kWh per month combined. Better than average, I assume, but still something to improve upon. My biggest beef is the electricity we use for supplemental heat in the winter. Mostly during the early morning hours when the stove does not quite cut it anymore. I will finish the attic this summer and then add more insulation. Plus some more airsealing and other improvements in other places. My hope is we won't need the baseboards as much after that anymore. The water heater closes in on 20 years of service; I am waiting to see what would be the best option to replace it with in a few years.