Need help with preway insert problem.

[tlhfirelion]

Ok, so in anticipation of getting a insert before this next winter I was taking off the glass doors and the steel curtains and low and behold I came across the model and make of my fireplace box. I had not been able to find it and after some research I discovered it was a preway and the have been long gone for awhile now. What I have is a Preway B136EM-IV

I was looking at the napoleons and the quads but now I just want to make sure I am even getting something that will fit. I can't find any info on this specific model and can't get thru to napoleon or quad.

Anyone know about this box and what if anything I can do with it?

Thanks.

 

[Shane]

This is a bad gray area in the hearth industry. It used to be that an insert mfg. could "blanket" certify their units for zero clearance installation. Now they want them individually certified per model and brand. Now the other factor is that the zero clearance mfg. did not certify the zero clearance fireplace for insert installation. You can see where the two schools of thought lead. My suggestion would be to find an insert with one of the "blanket" certifications and install it with an HT rated zero clearance approved liner. I think Homesaver is the only one who makes a system for zero clearance venting.

 

[tlhfirelion]

Yeah, it’s hard to tell and I’m starting to about give up. Any of the vendors near me charge $100 give or take to just come and take a look at my situation. I can’t afford that right now. Getting this stove is really pressuring my budget but I’m not here to give you guys a sob story just need to vent is all.

on the picture below with the envelopes are the two pieces I don’t know if I need to remove or not to put the insert in. I removed the glass doors and steel curtains and thats all but if these 2 pieces with the envelopes on them stay or go will dictate what my measurements are and then what insert(s) I can get.

Who knows, I do feel like this just isn’t worth it anymore but with a free connection for firewood I hate to pass this up.

 

[Burd]

Im not sure about this but if it was me I would take it all out and find your rough opening of the fire place With most new insert thay come with new surrounds.If your look at Napolean go to there web site and down load there manual it will give you all your specs that your looking for. Im heating the house this year with the napploean 1402p And I beleive its zero clearance and I cant wait to fire it back up and send the oil truck back to the yard. You no just wait till BEGreen reads your post he really no his sh t So dont listen to me for I am a NEWBBIE>But please do it right and safely you have all summer to work on this And start getting your wood now and make sure its seasoned
Good luck with the install and please post pictures because I cant.

 

[tlhfirelion]

thanks burt, hopefully he will. My issue is with a lot of people these days, money money money. Never enough and I'm trying to save money by spending it here. I do have my wood all lined out and ready to go and am going to get more this next weekend. it's all good and seasoned. I kinda live out in the sticks a bit and it's not easy or affordable to just have people come over and help. So I try and go at it alone as much as I can but it's hard when I don't know jack about this stuff. Maybe it would be good to just pull it all out, but I'm back to the same old issue of what to pull out where, what to do next etc. it's frustrating because I can't explain what I really need and you guys can't really effectively help me by just looking at pics you know? You are correct though safety is important thats why I got on this board to begin with. Thanks again.

 

[trailblaster]

I was in the same boat. I still don't know what brand of zero clearance fireplace box I have but I found a good wood stove insert that was safe for all ZC fireplaces as long as you use a SS liner all the way up and have a 1" clearance between the back of the insert and the fireplace walls. I have a ventinox SS flex liner all the way to the top that is rated for 2100f. I also have checked the temp of the outer layer of the 3layer chimney and it doesn't get hotter than room temp. You need to get the dimensions of the depth, backwall, opening-width and height then your outside fireplace clearances(depth of hearth,mantel,ect). I have an Enviro Kodiak 1700 that is certified safe from mfg for ZC fireplaces. The back and sides of the insert stay cooler than the walls of the fireplace were when it was used as a fireplace. I would try to find an insert that will fit your box without cutting the opening wider because that area above the top envelope is an area of air insulation between the firebox and any potential combustibles.

 

[tlhfirelion]

I was in the same boat. I still don't know what brand of zero clearance fireplace box I have but I found a good wood stove insert that was safe for all ZC fireplaces as long as you use a SS liner all the way up and have a 1" clearance between the back of the insert and the fireplace walls. I have a ventinox SS flex liner all the way to the top that is rated for 2100f. I also have checked the temp of the outer layer of the 3layer chimney and it doesn't get hotter than room temp. You need to get the dimensions of the depth, backwall, opening-width and height then your outside fireplace clearances(depth of hearth,mantel,ect). I have an Enviro Kodiak 1700 that is certified safe from mfg for ZC fireplaces. The back and sides of the insert stay cooler than the walls of the fireplace were when it was used as a fireplace. I would try to find an insert that will fit your box without cutting the opening wider because that area above the top envelope is an area of air insulation between the firebox and any potential combustibles.

what did that kodiak cost you? I'll look it up. thank you.

 

[trailblaster]

My costs:
insert with the larger surround wall $1600
Ventinox 6"high temp 30' SS flex liner $800
SS 6" flue collar(mounts liner to stove),chimney cap, furnace cement about $75
mortar and grout $40
70 pieces of natural HEAVY slate $120
6 cement boards $60
chimney sweeped and liner dropped down, capped and insulated $160
Total cost roughly $2855
That includes me doing all the labor except the cleaning and dropping down of liner. I pulled out all the ugly ceramic tiles that were there and made a 6" raised hearth instead of a flush hearth and pulled out surrounding drywall and replaced with cementboard to help hold the heavy slate and added protection for combustibles.

 

[tlhfirelion]

OK, who wants to PM me their phone number so I can bug them about this problem of mine? :D

 

[trailblaster]

Just put your questions here and we'll all try to answer them.

 

[Shane]

You should be ok to remove the bottom ashlip and if the top is just a piece of sheet metal that prodtrudes down that 3 or 4" it's just a smoke guard and can be trimmed to facilitate installation. If you took a pic of it from the bottom and back side I could tell a little better.

Edit: Don't remove anything you don't have to to get the insert in. If you have the min. height as is just leave it. You'll need to work on removing the damper and getting that listed liner.

 

[jtp10181]

We put Quad 2700I inserts in old 36" preways all the time. You need to have a fully insulated liner installed in the chimney and you also need to make sure the outer cooling air can breathe still. Best way to do this is to keep the old cap and run the liner up through it. This keeps the lower cooling air vents at factory specs.

 

[Shane]

What JTP says is true and I put in a ton like that. However when you get into the technical listings of liners the majority are listed for masonry applications. The only one I can remember being specifically listed for Zero Clearance chimney applications is the homesaver liner.

 

[tlhfirelion]

You should be ok to remove the bottom ashlip and if the top is just a piece of sheet metal that prodtrudes down that 3 or 4" it's just a smoke guard and can be trimmed to facilitate installation. If you took a pic of it from the bottom and back side I could tell a little better.

Edit: Don't remove anything you don't have to to get the insert in. If you have the min. height as is just leave it. You'll need to work on removing the damper and getting that listed liner.

Thank you for your reply. Yes the liner is a must have I have learned. I have a single wall 8" pipe going up the 15' to the top of my chimney and then have a cap on it with the steel mesh screen so would you say I am ok there?

Yes the top piece in my picture is just a smoke guard and can be removed with 3 bolts. I already did remove it but I can put it back on if it matter as I have all the pieces still.

So to make sure I understand you I do need to completley remove the damper when I install the liner? I'd seen some websites that just prop it open but it does make sense that it would need to be removed and the liner and "stop plate" (if that is the correct term) is put in it's place correct?

Thank you again for your reply.

 

[tlhfirelion]

We put Quad 2700I inserts in old 36" preways all the time. You need to have a fully insulated liner installed in the chimney and you also need to make sure the outer cooling air can breathe still. Best way to do this is to keep the old cap and run the liner up through it. This keeps the lower cooling air vents at factory specs.

Well I'm glad to hear you at least had heard of preway. Most of the local shops around here that I called had never heard of it or said it must of been before my time said one kid as his voice cracked. lol

So if I have an 8" pipe currently and put a 6" liner in it, I assume the 2" gap is to assist with cooling via air?

Thanks again for your reply. I will post up more pics of what I am looking at and I also learned to day I do have an outside air vent already installed in my current fireplace so that was good news.

 

[jtp10181]

I don't know how you would get a 6" liner past an 8" damper. It will have to come out. Also the pipe for the preway should be a double wall with the outer being an air cooling chamber. If it is some sort of single wall this is a major fire hazard and it will have to be removed.

 

[tlhfirelion]

I don't know how you would get a 6" liner past an 8" damper. It will have to come out. Also the pipe for the preway should be a double wall with the outer being an air cooling chamber. If it is some sort of single wall this is a major fire hazard and it will have to be removed.

I am almost positive it is a double wall as I have a blower on it and pulls air from the bottom and the sends the warm air out the top. I also found my outside air intake and you can see a box inside a box and the connection provides air into that small gap between the boxes. Am I good or is there anything else I should check on just to be 100% positive?

Thanks again for your help!

 

[tlhfirelion]

so if I have an 8" pipe then what size liner would I want to get? a 6" or a 5" or????

 

[Burd]

I Agree with jti Most inserts are 6 inch So youll have to do something safer these insert will get hot so play it safe
Naploen insert was $1328 And the 25 foot liner KIT was $336 If you shop on line youll fined what you need O The liner will be cheaper because you need 15ft not the 25 Make sure you measure the lenght I dont no if you can do this but dura vent sells spacere that locks to the liner to get your clerances in the eight inch pipe
ANy way total cost shipped from ohio $1831.40 with 6%taxed and they shipped it free That was back in feb
Good luck

 

[tlhfirelion]

I Agree with jti Most inserts are 6 inch So youll have to do something safer these insert will get hot so play it safe
Naploen insert was $1328 And the 25 foot liner KIT was $336 If you shop on line youll fined what you need O The liner will be cheaper because you need 15ft not the 25 Make sure you measure the lenght I dont no if you can do this but dura vent sells spacere that locks to the liner to get your clerances in the eight inch pipe
ANy way total cost shipped from ohio $1831.40 with 6%taxed and they shipped it free That was back in feb
Good luck

Ok so Im confused on the liner part. Is it safe to go with say a 4 or 5 inch liner in the 8 inch pipe or do I need to have it be 6? I will look into the spacers you suggested. thank you.

 

[tlhfirelion]

I got a quote on a napoleon 1402 and liner as follows and it seems to be a pretty good deal.

1402 insert - $1275
15' Duraflex Liner - $215 (not sure if this is the total liner with insulation or just the steel part?)
top plate, top clamp and storm collar - $65

With tax it is $1645. Thats good until the end of July.

From what I can tell that is a very good price. Am I correct?

 

[jtp10181]

What you said about double wall makes no sense. Yes the firebox has an inner and our chamber but that has nothing to do with the pipe. From the roof with the cap off you can tell how many "walls" the pipe has. Usually an ID of 8" there is an OD pipe of 10" or so giving a 2" air cooling chamber on the pipe. There is about a 99% chance your unit has this unless it was installed totally illegally.

Yes you want a 6" liner, no that wont allow 2" for cooling between the liner and the 8" pipe. The 6" liner (which is almost 7" OD) + 1/2" insulation is almost 8". You will have RAM it down the 8" pipe, it will be a snug fit.

The price for the Duralfex is probably just for the SS liner, not the insulation.

 

[tlhfirelion]

What you said about double wall makes no sense. Yes the firebox has an inner and our chamber but that has nothing to do with the pipe. From the roof with the cap off you can tell how many "walls" the pipe has. Usually an ID of 8" there is an OD pipe of 10" or so giving a 2" air cooling chamber on the pipe. There is about a 99% chance your unit has this unless it was installed totally illegally.

Yes you want a 6" liner, no that wont allow 2" for cooling between the liner and the 8" pipe. The 6" liner (which is almost 7" OD) + 1/2" insulation is almost 8". You will have RAM it down the 8" pipe, it will be a snug fit.

The price for the Duralfex is probably just for the SS liner, not the insulation.

I asked about the insulation part and he said that was included in the price. I will make sure it is what he says it is before buying. So I get the 6" liner and have to ram it down the pipe, whats the best way for me by myself? My wife usually gets roped into helping me with this kind of stuff so how would we best approach this to do it without damaging the liner? It would seem starting from the top and inserting it down towards the insert would be our best bet..correct?

If I have 2 pipes already (the 10 and interior 8 inch pipes) do I need a liner or no?

Thanks!

 

[webbie]

You do need to line this older pre-fab pipe to bring it up to current codes. In any case, there is no problem with fitting a 6" down there, either with or without insulation. 6" liner is only 6" OD (or real close)....some liners are pre-insulated, others can be wrapped. You may be able to use rigid as opposed to flex, which is better overall....smaller OD, heavier wall, etc.

 

[blackgooseJT]

As stated by previous respondents, installing "blanket listed" appliances into factory-built fireplaces is a real bugaboo. The appiance mfr.'s I'm familiar with all swear that their inserts are tested to perform to the listing when installed into a UL 127 tested factory-built fireplace.Many fireplace installation manuals specifically FORBID the addition of any appliance at all and state that doing so will nullify any warranty...blah....blah....blah.. In the real world it is done all the time. The dangers? a poor or deteriorated original fireplace and chimney sets the stage for pyrolisis and clearance issues. (what you can't see CAN bite you) Without level 2 or 3 inspection you'll never know.We are a litigious culture. The person making any changes assumes ALL risk and liability.Even the blanket listings will state what can and what cannot be altered or removed.If you do elect to do this yourself insulate your liner and do not block off the cooling vents even if the insert manufacturer says you can. allowing the movement of convection air must help in avoiding overheating

And please do look at every possible area within the chase for issues. I inspected a prefab unit once where someone had dumped a whole box full of toys and books directly on top of a ZC box. They had spilled over in the attic and fallen thru where the chase had no firestop. A poor job all around, but by looking closely the problems were averted.If you can peel back the chase cover or even open up the side you may be able to detect pitfalls.

good luck with your project,

blackgooseJT