Need Some Help. Neighbor (Environmental Atty) Filed Complaint

[Supersurvey]

Rook Ki can you please post a few pictures of your chimney at a trpical burn?

 

[Mojappa]

Just shoot the hippie and run him through the stove. Bastard deserves nothing more than that. Wish I could help more, but I've got zero tolerance for hipster idiots that move into a neighborhood then complain about the already existing neighbors (farmers, ranchers, etc). The judge should tell him to stuff it up his rear sideways and blow it out with hotsauce but judges aren't what they used to be.

I wish you the best of luck.

Probably isn’t a hippie, we love the smell of wood fire smoke. most likely a crotchety old man that thinks his time spent on earth has entitled him to something he isn’t. Lol

 

[Mojappa]

Posts like this remind me why I don’t live in town. I don’t appreciate people telling me what I can and can’t do on my own property.
Were you aware of these zoning bylaws when you bought your place? Were they in effect when the town took your money for the two permits to instal the stoves? I would think the fact they gave you permits for them would weigh heavily in your favor.

But when your actions on your property are spewing carcinogens into other people’s air then it becomes a problem. I’m not saying this is the case here but there are definitely times where just because you’re on “your property” it doesn’t mean you’re not impacting surrounding properties.

 

[Adabiviak]

"offensive" and "nuisance" are rather poorly defined... sounds like they'd wind up using the "reasonable person" check if this wound up in court.

I don’t appreciate people telling me what I can and can’t do on my own property.

Yeah, but there's a line, and most people draw it differently. On one end of the spectrum might be an open-casket nuclear waste dump, and on the other is a bed of daisies. We all draw lines in the middle somewhere, and it tends to be users who aren't civil about it that prod the regulatory agencies to make it illegal rather than have to deal with bad actors.

I live high on a hill, and there are a few houses where they burn super poorly and flood the entire set of valleys below me with smoke... thick white stuff, and the stoves never seem to get up to temperature. I mean, it's literally like one house that's doing this in any given valley (wet wood, lousy stove, whatever). Part of my concern is that these folks' chimneys are a fire waiting to happen, but the other concern is that they're going to ruin it for the rest of us.

@rook_ki, if you're rockin' the best starters and driest firewood around, I'd expect maybe five to ten minutes of actual visible smoke? It should definitely clear up within maybe 20, or (neighbor notwithstanding), you may be looking at creosote issues in your stack.

 

[rook_ki]

I've changed my cat twice since having the inserts put in 5 years ago. I replaced the orig ceramic cats 2 years ago with steel cats but didn't like them as much as the ceramic cat. After a season of the steel cat, I purchased 2 new ceramic cat.

Our houses are approx. 30' apart and unfortunately my chimney is on the near-side of his house.

No I don't know the zoning bylaws when the stove were installed. I picked out the stoves and made sure with the installers that permit was pulled and inspection was done. Unfortunately, base on the 2 articles from the local paper, it seems the BOH has the power to revoke the permit.

Sound like my smoke issue is my woods are only partially seasoned.

 

[rook_ki]

Unfortunately, once I received the email from my BOH saying I'm in violation, I have stop burning completely. Therefore, I don't have any picture to post. To be fair, during startup, my smoke is lasting a lot longer than a few minutes, base on some of the descriptions above. I would say the smoke last 30 minutes or so. Even after I engaged the cat, I can still see a small stream of smoke. I cannot tell the difference between steam and smoke. I'll just assume they're smoke for the argument sake.

 

[GadDummit]

Imagine if you saved up money for years to finally get your own house, only to end up with a neighbor that spews noxious fumes all over your new house. The problem is, you bought the house in the summer and didn't know your new neighbor would be burning unseasoned wood. To top it all off, your family member has asthma and can't tolerate the particulates in the smoke and is forced to stay inside for fear of dying.

Not every person who files a complaint is a person you don't like. If nobody filed complaints about wood smoke, we wouldn't have EPA stoves. If nobody complained about smog, your white shirt would turn grey simply by walking through a city.

I personally don't mind a bit of wood smoke, but it sounds like this dude's cat is probably not functioning well since it's five years old and he's burning unseasoned wood. I bet there is quite a bit of smoke coming out of the chimney, and maybe it blows directly into the neighbors house. That would be super frustrating. Certainly a better compromise should have been reached, but that's not what happened.

OP, you should get some sort of compressed wood product and replace your cat(s) and have someone watch your chimney throughout the startup to see how much smoke you really make.

No, no no no. You moved in, you accept the consequences. People burn wood to stay warm in the winter. If you have asthma then you should be prequalifying your neighbors BEFORE moving in. I'm currently house shopping myself so I have zero sympathy for someone like this. My kids have allergies, but if we move in next to a cat lady that's OUR FAULT. If we move next to a peanut farm that's OUR FAULT. And if we moved next to a place that burned dog food all winter long (we actually have one of those here) that would be OUR FAULT for not scoping out the area.

If you're that sensitive, move to town OR buy more acreage so you aren't bothered by people that are doing the same things humans have been doing for millions of years.

 

[Boxer]

But when your actions on your property are spewing carcinogens into other people’s air then it becomes a problem. I’m not saying this is the case here but there are definitely times where just because you’re on “your property” it doesn’t mean you’re not impacting surrounding properties

If you buy a house 30 feet from your neighbors house your going to be impacted by the surrounding properties. Why would a new neighbor move in and think they can start running the neighborhood? Maybe the OP burns wood to keep from freezing to death all winter because he can’t afford any other form of heat. What gives the neighbor the right to tell him he can’t?

Around here a lot of people “Spew Carcinogens” ,we just call it wood smoke because that’s all they can afford to heat with. It’s winter and chimneys smoke. That’s the way it’s been for a lot longer than we have been around. Can you imagine some people even burn that evil black stuff they call coal. I guess when the farmer up the road starts spreading manure next spring and sours my air I should call the law on him because the smell is impacting surrounding properties. If you choose to settle someplace you better be sure you like it before hand instead of coming in and trying to tell everyone else how you want them to live their lives.

 

[SeanBB]

I would not expect oak to be seasoned in one year. If you burn only well seasoned wood there will be no smoke apart from start up. Buy a pack or two of compressed wood bricks and see if they make a difference.

 

[peakbagger]

I will qualify my statement, I am not a lawyer. My read of the laws you posted are they are so broad that they would be difficult to enforce and defend. Even a pellet stove could effectively be banned although it would put out less visible emissions. No matter what you spend or do, the neighbors time is effectively free so you are the whim of the neighbor. My suggestion is spend some money talking to a lawyer. My guess he is he going to flag that the regulation is fundamentally flawed and unenforceable. Its then up to the BOH to decide if they want to actually enforce it and that is when its lawyer against lawyer. and at that point the cost for representation is probably more than you save with wood.

Since you seem to be buying wood, the pellet option might be good one for you but with such a broad regulations I would not write a check for one..

 

[Dug8498]

Have you called the BOH to discuss this further with them and ask what your options are? I would explain that you've been burning wood in your legally installed insert for years with no complaints from previous neighbors. Has this neighbor submitted proof of anything? That just seems awfully strange that they can mandate that you cease burning solely based on a complaint from one finicky neighbor. One of my neighbors burns all sorts of wet/ terrible things in his stove and every once and a while if I'm outside it can be a bit pungent. Luckily, most of the time, I'm inside in the winter and the windows are closed, so I dont notice and don't care.

Peakbagger is correct, getting a lawyer could be very expensive. Do you happen to have any friends who are lawyers who would be at least willing to review this for free/cheap and see if it's worth fighting?

I know that if this happened to me there's no way I would just stop burning without exploring this further as I enjoy burning wood, I have a lot of wood that would just go to waste, and I would be forced to use my electric heat which would cost me $500-600 per month. I would also hate to let my obnoxious neighbor win..

 

[SpaceBus]

No, no no no. You moved in, you accept the consequences. People burn wood to stay warm in the winter. If you have asthma then you should be prequalifying your neighbors BEFORE moving in. I'm currently house shopping myself so I have zero sympathy for someone like this. My kids have allergies, but if we move in next to a cat lady that's OUR FAULT. If we move next to a peanut farm that's OUR FAULT. And if we moved next to a place that burned dog food all winter long (we actually have one of those here) that would be OUR FAULT for not scoping out the area.

If you're that sensitive, move to town OR buy more acreage so you aren't bothered by people that are doing the same things humans have been doing for millions of years.

No, that's not how communities work. Everyone must respect each other. If you have no respect for your neighbors, how can you expect them to respect you? Are you going to poll all of the people living around the house you are shopping? I am the type of person that looks into everything around the house, but some things are seasonal. You can't just spend your whole life saying "screw everyone else, I'm the only one that matters" because soon everyone thinks that. Amish people don't do this chit, and they also don't have residential disputes.

 

[macattack_ga]

https://www.telegram.com/article/20090715/NEWS/907150488

I think this is the article I remember: https://www.telegram.com/article/20071101/news/711010671.

Made me also think of the rural town where I lived in NJ: KIngwood Township. Someone moved in next to a farm filed a complaint! It's a right to farm community!

Such a civil world we live in. From the article about neighbors: "The men have never spoken to each other directly -- only through the Board of Health."

 

[PaulOinMA]

I'm sort of known as the jackass neighbor here because I actually talked to my next-door neighbor about something, rather than complain behind his back.

He (before his wife threw him out) would play music through outdoor speakers in his backyard all day Saturday and Sunday. One neighbor complained TO ME about his music. This neighbor is on the other side of me, and she is probably three to four times farther away. And she's complaining to me.

Another neighbor across the street (!) complained to my wife.

I'm the first one that actually spoke to him, so I'm known as the jackass neighbor. Yeesh!

 

[St. Coemgen]

If you buy a house 30 feet from your neighbors house your going to be impacted by the surrounding properties. Why would a new neighbor move in and think they can start running the neighborhood? Maybe the OP burns wood to keep from freezing to death all winter because he can’t afford any other form of heat. What gives the neighbor the right to tell him he can’t?

Around here a lot of people “Spew Carcinogens” ,we just call it wood smoke because that’s all they can afford to heat with. It’s winter and chimneys smoke. That’s the way it’s been for a lot longer than we have been around. Can you imagine some people even burn that evil black stuff they call coal. I guess when the farmer up the road starts spreading manure next spring and sours my air I should call the law on him because the smell is impacting surrounding properties. If you choose to settle someplace you better be sure you like it before hand instead of coming in and trying to tell everyone else how you want them to live their lives.

I will try to answer these issue intellectually. I trust you can follow.

First, you are right. Poor people do not have a lot of options. To keep warm, to eat, or survive. But I doubt this is fully true of the OP. The OP is burning unseasoned wood in an area that has regulations about burning. So the answer to your question of "What gives the neighbor the right to tell him he can't", is "the local law and regulations may tell him". One may not agree with laws, or regulations. Some are fully unjust and silly (e.g. Indentured service and slavery was once legal). But a legal law based system is how most societies work, right or wrong. And, equally, the OP has the right to fight the complaint. Which is also his legal right.

Second, simply because something is done commonly or historically in some area does not mean it is smart or good. I have the opposite problem of the OP. Most everyone around me burns unseasoned wood.

My chimney during burning:

Everyone else burning where I live:

Yes, many do this because they are poor and can not buy wood "years ahead". But they are also rather stupid. Not really understanding the concept of seasoned wood because buying unsplit logs in the fall and burning them that winter is "that is the way they have always done it". Simply buying and splitting in the spring would be a leap forward. But no. They are uneducated and stubborn, and many seem to want to stay that way. And that refusal to change is sad mostly because it harms them more than anyone else (I, fortunately, live above the inversion layer, and most days I can see this pollution, but don't have to smell it -- but if I go down there, the aroma is breathing in pure creosote). Where I live, surprise to no one, has a high incident of lung cancer, et al. But that affects everyone -- raises health care costs. So others ignorance and behavior ends up affecting me. The idea "I can do what I want on my property" has limits. Some things one does affects others both personally and financially. You don't live on an asteroid alone. Your actions do have consequences, even if you want to think they don't.

Side note: others in this smoke hazed town in the photo above would be willing to change, if they could because most of them have children and are of a younger generation (-- the local old farts seem too stuck in their ways and reactionary to change even if it helps them). But even those that want to change and help themselves need both education and support doing so (i.e. help buying wood a few years ahead). The local government has "issues" about that because those currently in power are incompetent. So it is complicated.

 

[Akon]

Convert your wood storage area into a solar kiln. Wood will be ready in two months and won't have to re-split.

 

[MissMac]

Hi,
I'm in central MA. New neighbor moved in a few months ago. I have 2 BK Princess inserts installed back in 2013. Never had any complaint before previous neighbor Board of health contacted me saying neighbor complaint of smoke and odor from my burning. 99% of my firewood are red oak. I split and stack them fairly small 1-2" diameter because I do not have the space to store 2 years. Their usually seasoned only 1 year. Please help me with a few questions.

1. How much smoke should I see during initial burn?
2. How much smoke should I see once stove is hot enough to engage the combustor?
3. Talking to a couple of local wood dealers, they're say it's not possible to get seasoned firewood under 20% moisture content because seasoned firewood will reabsorb moisture and rain water. They said I would have to purchase kiln dried firewood to achieve under 20%. Anyone in the northeast can confirm or disprove what they told me?
4. Are there anyone local on this forum who would be willing to show me their setup and the operation of their stove?
5. Anyone local who has firewood under 20% would be kind enough to sell me 1/2 or a cord?

Thank you.

Cutting your wood to 1-2" is basically like stuffing it with kindling. Lots of good advice on here from other folks, but this caught my attention. Sounds like you need to figure out a plan to get your wood seasoned properly at a larger size diameter. I think that by burning splits this size in your BK, you're overwhelming the cat with so much smoke that it cant keep up = more smoke out the chimney in general. Plus, perhaps some wood quality issues and other factors as others have identified.

I'd like to know what results you get when you put some bigger seasoned splits in there. Bet it makes a notable difference.

 

[SpaceBus]

I will try to answer these issue intellectually. I trust you can follow.

First, you are right. Poor people do not have a lot of options. To keep warm, to eat, or survive. But I doubt this is fully true of the OP. The OP is burning unseasoned wood in an area that has regulations about burning. So the answer to your question of "What gives the neighbor the right to tell him he can't", is "the local law and regulations may tell him". One may not agree with laws, or regulations. Some are fully unjust and silly (e.g. Indentured service and slavery was once legal). But a legal law based system is how most societies work, right or wrong. And, equally, the OP has the right to fight the complaint. Which is also his legal right.

Second, simply because something is done commonly or historically in some area does not mean it is smart or good. I have the opposite problem of the OP. Most everyone around me burns unseasoned wood.

My chimney during burning:

View attachment 237705

Everyone else burning where I live:

View attachment 237706

Yes, many do this because they are poor and can not buy wood "years ahead". But they are also rather stupid. Not really understanding the concept of seasoned wood because buying unsplit logs in the fall and burning them that winter is "that is the way they have always done it". They are uneducated and many seem to want to stay that way. And that refusal to change is sad mostly because it harms them more than anyone else (I, fortunately, live above the inversion layer, and most days I can see this pollution, but don't have to smell it -- but if I go down there, the aroma is breathing in pure creosote). Where I live, surprise to no one, has a high incident of lung cancer, et al. But that affects everyone -- raises health care costs. So others ignorance and behavior ends up affecting me. The idea "I can do what I want on my property" has limits. Some things one does affects others both personally and financially. You don't live on an asteroid alone. Your actions do have consequences, even if you want to think they don't.

Side note: others in this smoke hazed town in the photo above would be willing to change, if they could because most of them have children and are of a younger generation (-- the local old farts seem too stuck in their ways and reactionary to change even if it helps them). But even those that want to change and help themselves need both education and support doing so (i.e. help buying wood a few years ahead). The local government has "issues" about that because those currently in power are incompetent. So it is complicated.

That photo of the haze is insane. Many people burn wood here, but it seems most have modern stoves and/or good burning practices. I see very few really smoky stacks.

 

[SpaceBus]

Unfortunately, once I received the email from my BOH saying I'm in violation, I have stop burning completely. Therefore, I don't have any picture to post. To be fair, during startup, my smoke is lasting a lot longer than a few minutes, base on some of the descriptions above. I would say the smoke last 30 minutes or so. Even after I engaged the cat, I can still see a small stream of smoke. I cannot tell the difference between steam and smoke. I'll just assume they're smoke for the argument sake.

When is the last time you replaced your catalytic combuster?

 

[Boxer]

I will try to answer these issue intellectually. I trust you can follow.

Thank you for not getting too intellectual with your response so I could follow along.
First off you have no idea what the OPs financial situation is. The fact that you are assuming he is wealthy enough to heat without burning wood tells a lot about your thinking.

The fact that you refer to your neighbors as “rather stupid” and “local old farts” also gives us a glimpse into your entitled thinking.

You don’t live on an asteroid alone either so how about trying to be a little bit more tolerant of your neighbors instead of trying to change them to suit what you think is right? I’m sure your neighbors would appreciate it.

 

[SpaceBus]

Thank you for not getting too intellectual with your response so I could follow along.
First off you have no idea what the OPs financial situation is. The fact that you are assuming he is wealthy enough to heat without burning wood tells a lot about your thinking.

The fact that you refer to your neighbors as “rather stupid” and “local old farts” also gives us a glimpse into your entitled thinking.

You don’t live on an asteroid alone either so how about trying to be a little bit more tolerant of your neighbors instead of trying to change them to suit what you think is right? I’m sure your neighbors would appreciate it.

The OP straight said they don't burn for their primary heat. It seems like you haven't read any of this and you are firing from the hip with your feelings. You are the one inferring a bunch of stuff about Coemgen and basically saying he's the jerk. This is exactly what you lambasted the OP's neighbor for. In an attempt to demonize others you have demonized yourself.

 

[Woody5506]

I'll go out on a limb here and say if you're burning in two BK's you're probably not that poor. Sounds like more of a case of burning poorly.

 

[weatherguy]

If I remember correctly you burn two princesses, mine used to smoke at the beginning of a burn, your in a tough situation. My new progress hybrid goes into secondary burn mode quick so I dont get the smoke at the start. Might have to put them on craigslist or move to oakham.

 

[Dug8498]

If I remember correctly you burn two princesses, mine used to smoke at the beginning of a burn, your in a tough situation. My new progress hybrid goes into secondary burn mode quick so I dont get the smoke at the start. Might have to put them on craigslist or move to oakham.

Or just burn seasoned wood? I can't imagine this would be a real issue if the OP were burning seasoned wood and/or Bio bricks/ NIELS

Go buy a couple packs of some sort of compressed brick and wait until the neighbor goes to work. Light it up and walk outside to see what your smoke situation looks like. if it looks reasonable, call the governing agency that shut you down and ask them to come out and observe the amount of smoke being produced. I really dont think you would need a lawyer to argue this case in a local court. However, if you keep burning wet wood i don't think you'll be able to make much of a case.

 

[SpaceBus]

If I remember correctly you burn two princesses, mine used to smoke at the beginning of a burn, your in a tough situation. My new progress hybrid goes into secondary burn mode quick so I dont get the smoke at the start. Might have to put them on craigslist or move to oakham.

Also consider that the cats are probably original and have been being fed by green wood for five years. I don't know who recommended two princesses for a person that doesn't burn for primary heat. They seem like the wrong stove for this situation to begin with.