New Clydesdale - First Post

[Hef]

Hi everyone, bought a new house over the summer. All Electric, approx 2500 sq ft - large open Living & Dining rooms, both very low on the insulation value. Exposed wood ceiling and lots of glass. Also open to the insulated kitchen.

Got Novembers Electric bill, $850! October was in the $300 range, AC running over the summer was not bad. Two zoned Trane Heat Pumps. One zone covers about 1800 sq ft. The other is cut off from the main part of the house and is very efficient.

We have a beautiful large Fireplace at the end of the the living room, pointed towards the open area leading to the Dining room and kitchen. It currently has a Heat-N-Glo Propane insert.

I went shopping last week and bought the Clydesdale unit. I liked the large glass area, and it seems to have a large firebox and lined with soapstone seems like a popular choice. It's sitting idle in the living room awaiting installation....by me I'm dumping (burning) all of the propane before pulling out the gas insert. Down to less than 2 days left. I'm happy to say that simple gas unit is heating up that large open area pretty well after running it 24/hrs per day for a few days.

Installation....I was shocked by the installation quote, I realize the flue liner and insullation is a large part of it, but I'm a handy guy and I think I can handls this. Spent 20 years in the sheet metal business, seeing the back plates and other enclosure things being built on hers has me interested. I have the Flex King Pro liner and insullation in a shopping cart ready to buy it. Any complaints about the. Internal walled Chimney, inuslated heated rooms behind all the way up for two floors, looks like 24 ft total. Flex King Pro is smooth lined and 6 inch inullation should make for good draw....Correct?

One question for now, the appliance connector that comes with the kit, should slip into the Clydesdale collar, do I cement this in, or just use the 3 screw holes to hold it. I see people talk about using cement, but what if you have to take this thing out, sounds like trouble. The draft created would stop any leaks...correct?

Thanks for reading...I will have more questions during the week. Hope to be burning wood before Christmas Day!

Thanks
Hef

 

[etiger2007]

I used both. I set the three screws and then sealed the seem where the appliance connector and liner joined together. I also sealed the screws with cement. You can put a bead of cement on the outside of the colloar before you put it in the insert if you like. Good luck , I was looking at that insert this weekend on You Tube, please let us know How it works out for ya.

 

[Nick Mystic]

I would dry fit the connection in question and see how tight it is. When I installed my T-connector into the flue collar on my Jotul F600 stove it was so tight I had to use a strap clamp to pull it far enough into the collar so it would seat properly. The two bolts then held it from coming loose with the heating/cooling cycle. There would not be any place to put furnace cement with that tight a fit. I think most people get a good enough connection that they don't need to seal the joint. If the connection is loose enough to cause concern then I'd be investigating why things are so loose before I would just start filling gaps with furnace cement. When I've used furnace cement I've found it to be quite brittle and often fall out later after a time, so I wouldn't trust it in an area I couldn't visually inspect it on a regular basis. Good luck with your installation.

 

[Eaglecraft]

Hi everyone, bought a new house over the summer. All Electric, approx 2500 sq ft - large open Living & Dining rooms, both very low on the insulation value. Exposed wood ceiling and lots of glass. Also open to the insulated kitchen.

Got Novembers Electric bill, $850! October was in the $300 range, AC running over the summer was not bad. Two zoned Trane Heat Pumps. One zone covers about 1800 sq ft. The other is cut off from the main part of the house and is very efficient.

We have a beautiful large Fireplace at the end of the the living room, pointed towards the open area leading to the Dining room and kitchen. It currently has a Heat-N-Glo Propane insert.

I went shopping last week and bought the Clydesdale unit. I liked the large glass area, and it seems to have a large firebox and lined with soapstone seems like a popular choice. It's sitting idle in the living room awaiting installation....by me I'm dumping (burning) all of the propane before pulling out the gas insert. Down to less than 2 days left. I'm happy to say that simple gas unit is heating up that large open area pretty well after running it 24/hrs per day for a few days.

Installation....I was shocked by the installation quote, I realize the flue liner and insullation is a large part of it, but I'm a handy guy and I think I can handls this. Spent 20 years in the sheet metal business, seeing the back plates and other enclosure things being built on hers has me interested. I have the Flex King Pro liner and insullation in a shopping cart ready to buy it. Any complaints about the. Internal walled Chimney, inuslated heated rooms behind all the way up for two floors, looks like 24 ft total. Flex King Pro is smooth lined and 6 inch inullation should make for good draw....Correct?

One question for now, the appliance connector that comes with the kit, should slip into the Clydesdale collar, do I cement this in, or just use the 3 screw holes to hold it. I see people talk about using cement, but what if you have to take this thing out, sounds like trouble. The draft created would stop any leaks...correct?

Thanks for reading...I will have more questions during the week. Hope to be burning wood before Christmas Day!

Thanks
Hef

Hef:

You have the same setup that we have - a Clydesdale connected to an insulated Flex King Pro, 6 inch SS liner. We are going into our 4th year with this combination and we have no complaints.

Prior to connecting Clyde to the liner, I built a mock-up of the insert using thin plywood stuck together with hot-glue. I did this because there was minimal overhead space to connect the liner to the appliance/stove connector and I wanted to see how things would line up. See http://www.chimneylinerdepot.com/store/427/product/Flex-Liner-ApplianceStove-Connector-6-inch.html. When the mock-up was in place under the liner, I could barely get my hands behind the stove to insert/attach the liner into the connector.

After experimenting with the mock-up, I decided the best approach was to insert/install the stove connector into Clyde's flue collar (while Clyde was sitting on the hearth and it was easy to get to all sides and the top of the unit), slide the stove back into its final position, and then connect the flex liner to the stove connector. That third screw in the rear of the flue collar - no way I was going to get that last screw in if I hadn't put the stove connector in first - and then push the stove back in place.

I dry fit the stove connector into Clyde's flue collar - it was a little bit loose - so I took the stove connector back out and generously smeared Rutland Furnace Cement (see (broken link removed to https://www.rutland.com/p/20/chimney-sweep-furnace-cement) on the male end of the connector, pushed it back into the flue collar and then tapped it with a rubber mallet to seat the connector into the flue collar. Then using three SS screws, I fastened the connector to the flue collar.

With the stove connector fastened into the flue collar, I pushed the stove into its position under the flex liner. Then I repeated the process smearing the Rutland Furnace Cement on the end of the flex liner, which I then slid into the female top end of the stove connector. I then tightened up the SS clamp on the connector, covering the clamp with the furnace cement.

By the way, there is an up/down orientation of the flex liner.

So far, we have had excellent results with the stove/connector/liner. Clyde heats like a champ - we get no back puffing - the draft is excellent - and the stove is vey easy to start. We have had very little creosote after the first three years of burning. See the photo of the results from cleaning. You can see the stove connector/liner/flue collar in the attached photo.

 

[Ram 1500 with an axe...]

I used heat tape instead of cement, seams to work well and I have more when I need to clean it out in the spring...

 

[mstoelton]

I just installed a clydesdale in my basement with a 22 foot long flex king pro liner last weekend.

A few tips:

Prep the liner as instructed in the liner box. If the weather is cold (it was 20 f when we installed ours) use a heat gun to make the aluminum tape stick to the insulation.

Once the liner is insulated and the wire cage is applied.

Drop the liner down chimney,

Get your flue block installed, (make sure to leave enough insulation off the bottom of the liner to account for adequate length of bare liner below the flue block.

Then set the insert in place, connect the liner to top of the insert before the top end of the liner is connected at the top of the chimney.

Don't cut the top end of your liner until you have the liner set into the insert.

Don't cement your appliance cap to the liner until your liner/appliance cap is set into the top of the insert.

Once the liner is set into the insert you will want to use cement on the liner/appliance connector connection because there is some play there, the fit is not that tight, and there could be some smoke leakage at start-up or during cool down (if not sealed) when draft is minimal.

After you have connected the liner/appliace connector/insert, then go back on the roof and set you liner length and finish off your top cap connection. I had some extra aluminum tape from another project so I taped and sealed the ends of the insulation at the top and bottom of the liner where the insulation ended.

Note: you will need to cut the insulation below your top cap so the liner fits into the top cap, and above the flue block, so the liner can go through the flue block.

I used the instructions on this website to create the flue block. My local steel shop only had 20Ga. galvanized so I went with that, it is a little thicker, but seems to work fine.

The length of your liner should be fine for draw.

The clyde is awesome, you are gonna love it.

There will be some odor that you will get with the first few fires, but it diminishes quickly.

The clydesdale will provide a whole lot of very gentle heat. As I write this at 3:44 p.m. my son just sent me a picture of the still glowing ashes from the fire in our clydesdale that was filled with wood at 11:00 p.m. last night. I Love this insert!

I am now awaiting my soapstone hearth top slab. It should arrive this week.

 

[Hef]

Great tips everyone! Thanks. I'll probably be pulling the gas unit out Thursday. Lots to do. I'm having a hard time finding a metal shop to sell me a piece of steel. Thought that would be easier. I'm in the Annapolis area of Maryland if anyone has any ideas. I need to manufacture a couple of things. My chimney opening is about 3/4 inch wider than the Clyde outer trim pieces. I'm thinking of attaching either angle iron to the sides of chimney or flat steel to back of trim. Any thoughts?

thanks
Hef

 

[Eaglecraft]

Great tips everyone! Thanks. I'll probably be pulling the gas unit out Thursday. Lots to do. I'm having a hard time finding a metal shop to sell me a piece of steel. Thought that would be easier. I'm in the Annapolis area of Maryland if anyone has any ideas. I need to manufacture a couple of things. My chimney opening is about 3/4 inch wider than the Clyde outer trim pieces. I'm thinking of attaching either angle iron to the sides of chimney or flat steel to back of trim. Any thoughts?

thanks
Hef

Hef:

Sounds like you are referring to Clyde's surround being too small. As you suggest, I would go with something a lot heaver than sheet metal for extending the surround. I'd have a metal fab shop make up an extension for your surround - probably use 1/8 inch flat material. From my experience, a fab shop is more likely to help if you give them the work on the steel. They should be able to cut and weld an extension to your specs. A good steel fab shop should be able to make an extension as fancy as you might want. By the way, you can have that steel extension powder coated to match Clyde's surround.

As one of the posters suggested, a "block off" plate is a good idea. The block off plate can be made from sheet metal - which you can obtain from the big box stores.

Good luck - keep us posted of your install with some pictures.

 

[webby3650]

By the way, you can have that steel extension powder coated to match Clyde's surround.

The Clydes surround is Cast Iron, not steel like others.

We have 16 gauge pieces of angle metal that we use to fill in big fireplaces. It's paint grip metal, so we just shoot it with an appropriate color of Stove-Bright. There is no need for cement on that flue collar, it's a mess! And it;s no different than a stovepipe connection, it might suck an un measurable amount of air but it won't leak smoke. I rarely have the privilege of being able to use the appliance connector, typically a 30 degree fixed elbow is needed. Most of the time the fireplace flue is more to the back of the fireplace, rather than removing lots of bricks from the fireback an elbow only requires a few to be removed. So, be prepared!

 

[BrotherBart]

And it;s no different than a stovepipe connection

Which should be sealed just like a flue connection. Ever look up into one and see those shiny black streaks where the air leaks in and cools the gases. I have. More than once even as just a rookie Harry Homeowner wood burner. Sealing the connection to an insert flue collar to the connector ain't gonna cause any issues. You aren't gonna be pulling that insert out unless you have some serious issues. At that point smacking the flue collar with a hammer to shatter some furnace cement will be the least of your problems.

 

[Eaglecraft]

The Clydes surround is Cast Iron, not steel like others.

We have 16 gauge pieces of angle metal that we use to fill in big fireplaces. It's paint grip metal, so we just shoot it with an appropriate color of Stove-Bright. There is no need for cement on that flue collar, it's a mess! And it;s no different than a stovepipe connection, it might suck an un measurable amount of air but it won't leak smoke. I rarely have the privilege of being able to use the appliance connector, typically a 30 degree fixed elbow is needed. Most of the time the fireplace flue is more to the back of the fireplace, rather than removing lots of bricks from the fireback an elbow only requires a few to be removed. So, be prepared!

Webby 3650:

I am referring to exactly matching the extension steel to the color of Clyde's surround - which might be porcelain coated. That Clyde's surround is cast iron makes no difference in powder coating the extension steel. By the way, in case you have never tried it, powder coating makes a much nicer, much smoother coating than spray-on metal paint. Powder coating any additional steel to extend the surround would look classy - like Clyde.

And good luck to you too.

 

[Hef]

My Clyde is not the porcelain, it's just the flat black. Fixing that small gap, should be around 3/8" on each side is the least of my worries. Just did a lot of reading on Roxul. I have to get a look at the damper if there is still one there. I'm not sure how this current gas unit is installed. Propane down to less than 5%, should run out tonight.

 

[webby3650]

By the way, in case you have never tried it, powder coating makes a much nicer, much smoother coating than spray-on metal paint.

The paint matches the surround panels exact, since it's the very same paint. Except with the cast panels, there is no exact match of course. Powdercoating would be fine, except in the field. When your doing several inserts all over the state each week, it's nice to make up an extension right at the customers house!

 

[webby3650]

Which should be sealed just like a flue connection. Ever look up into one and see those shiny black streaks where the air leaks in and cools the gases. I have. More than once even as just a rookie Harry Homeowner wood burner. Sealing the connection to an insert flue collar to the connector ain't gonna cause any issues. You aren't gonna be pulling that insert out unless you have some serious issues. At that point smacking the flue collar with a hammer to shatter some furnace cement will be the least of your problems.

So you seal all your stove pipe joints with stove cement?

 

[xtrordinair]

sealing joints in most cases is a waste of time .but hell what do i know ive only done a few thousand flue systems.

 

[BrotherBart]

A smear on the inside before I slide the crimp in, yes. Twice I had the same problem people talk about here constantly with the crud in the connector pipe. When I took stuff apart to clean there was slick black sote streaked up from the leaking points in the pipe. And it didn't take much contemplation to know how much it was contributing to the rest of the accumulation in the connector pipe. Same thing on the flue collar of the 30-NC in the fireplace. Mirror in the stove looking up the liner and above the appliance connector, slick black sote.

Two bucks worth of furnace cement and none of it seen in years.

 

[BrotherBart]

sealing joints in most cases is a waste of time .but hell what do i know ive only done a few thousand flue systems.

And then went home.

 

[webby3650]

I install stoves and inserts literally every single day. And I go back and clean what I install. I'm not basing my suggestion on the 1 or 2 times I've done it. Unless there is some massive gape, you will see no real benefit of sealing that flue collar. It won't hurt anything by any means! If it makes you feel better then go for it!

 

[xtrordinair]

And then went home.

thats funny, i guess the fact i said most didnt register.

 

[BrotherBart]

Yeah it did. And I hope it does with most people reading the thread. But there is not one single wall connector pipe connection on the planet that does not leak. I haven't installed thousands. But a dozen or so were enough to convince me.

A Bic lighter does not lie.

 

[webby3650]

The manufacturer doesn't recommend sealing the joints, at least any products I deal with.
Have you tried Elmers? Or the new pipe from SBI? Very tight joints! Most SS elbows and adapters from National Chimney fit the flue collars VERY tightly, rarely ever see a need for any kind of sealant.
The new Flush Hybrid from Travis comes with a 1/4" rope gasket with applied adhesive on it to wrap their appliance connector with. But it come with an undersized adapter that makes room just for the gasket.

 

[xtrordinair]

i have no issue with someone sealing pipe joints with cement .i just dont like the mess it creates and having to deal with it when you clean the flue.I have used cement on V.C oval to round adapters and a few other situations that were similar.If it makes someone feel better about there install using it by all means load it up.

 

[mstoelton]

The flat steel would work, but you can't weld it onto the cast iron surround. You could drill, tap and screw some flat stock onto the surround if you are careful not to go all the way through, but you may be better off getting the larger surround that hearthstone makes for the stove. I think it is $250.00 for the extended surround and it will match your insert without any painting effort.

 

[Hef]

Drill and tap is what I planned using flat stock, exposing just enough to cover the opening. I've considered doing the same to the top to keep it consistent, even though I dont need it. For painting, powdercoat sounds great, but I'm looking for a cheap solution, again, it's only a 3/8" exposed piece. Any suggestions on a flat black spray that would match the Clyde Black?
Propane still hanging in at 1% this morning, thought it would run out overnight. Any tips on removing a gas insert? I know it's two vents, one in and one out. Disconnect gas line (empty tank should be no issue) I'll cut that line on the outside of the chimney in my crawlspace. I might route it out to my BBQ in the summer. Pull out Insert as far as possibe to Disconnect Vents. Pull vents out of chimney from top. Then start the inspection process. Sound like a plan?

Thanks

 

[webby3650]

Hearthstone uses Stove Bright, flat black.