New stove recommendation

[Ashful]

We have a Jotul 12 Firelight (predecessor to Jotul 600) in one end of our home, and are now looking for a second stove to heat the other end of the home. The new area to be heated is a 1770's stone farm house with 18" stone exterior walls, and plaster applied directly to the inside of the stone work / no insulation. The stove is to be installed in the firebox of an old cooking fireplace, located in a room of approximately 200 square feet. The stove is intended to heat an interior space of approximately 800 square feet, by providing circulation between the room containing the stove and two adjacent rooms.

The original 1770's firebox dimensions appear to have been 56" wide x 34" deep, but was at some time bricked in to its current firebox dimensions of 48" wide x 26" deep. It may be possible to remove this brickwork, but that will add to the expense and complexity of installation. The fireplace opening is 60" high, common to cooking fireplaces, and strongly favoring a top-loader type stove. I do not believe the 48" wide firebox will make practical any side loader stove.

The hearth has no extension beyond the 26" firebox depth, so I am interested in all options to deal with that. I am not opposed to removing some of the original flooring and building a permanent stone hearth extension, although that may be a challenge considering the existing structure below.

The fireplace currently houses a 40,000 BTU Mendota gas insert, which is overkill for the 200 square foot room in which it is installed, but is completely insufficient for heating the entire 800 square foot space without providing some secondary forced circulation between rooms. I had started another thread to primarily deal with that issue.

Below is the floor plan of the space to be heated by the new stove, along with a photo of the fireplace with the Mendota gas insert installed. We are planning on a complete tear-out of that gas insert and surround / going back to an open firebox with a free standing stove and liner. The 1058 sq.ft. gross dimension listed in the first attachment is including exterior walls, and the 788 sq.ft. is just the net of the three rooms. The actual net (gross minus exterior wall thickness) is roughly 871 sq.ft.

Floor plan:
View attachment 64655

Fireplace as it is today with gas insert:
View attachment 64695

With metal surround removed from gas insert:
View attachment 64696

Please excuse the "early old lady" wallpaper. We just moved in a few months ago / left by previous owner.

We are looking for all recommendations on stoves to check out for this application. We know the most basic pro's and con's of steel vs. cast iron vs. soapstone, and only know the brands Jotul and Hearthstone. This portion of the house is empty except evenings and weekends, and heating with oil, we typically keep the thermostat at 62*F approximately 20 hours per day, heating to 68*F evenings and weekends. We do not mind doing overnight burns, but have never been comfortable loading the stove in the morning and then leaving the house empty all day. For this type of cyclical use, I suspect soapstone is not the way to go, so we're primarily considering cast iron and steel stoves. The house is old (1770's), so cosmetically, we're looking more at cast iron than steel. We have not seen too many high efficiency top-loader stoves in cast iron.

Thank you.

 

[Armoured]

I'm unclear - what don't you like about the gas insert? Is it a cost issue, or getting more heat into the neighbouring rooms? Have you tried working on the circulation between the room with the gas stove and others?

While I understand preferring wood, having a well-run, already installed gas insert is not a bad start.

From a pure financial sense, it may make more sense to work on insulation of the old building and circulation in between those rooms first before spending a lot of time and effort on getting wood in there.

 

[begreen]

With that height you don't need a rear-vented stove. Therefore I would consider the Jotul F55, Pacific Energy T5, and Enviro Boston 1700 stoves, with blower. As noted, the nearby woodwork will have to go. Maybe replace with an attractive tile surround on the brick? Or better yet, consider leaving this setup as is and look at putting the stove in the living room where you will get the most pleasure and benefit.

Previous thread is here: https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/heat-circulation.85574/

 

[Armoured]

Looking at the pictures here and in your other thread:
-You may be able to get some more heat out of existing gas insert with better insulation behind/above it and some kind of fan/blower to get hot air out from the firebox area. It may be a noticeable difference.
-Some ceiling fans might help a lot to move air around/between rooms and not be noticeable (esp at low speed). A bit of work on circulation otherwise.
-As before, maybe there is some low-hanging fruit on insulation that would help too.
-I think others noted that significant work on that existing chimey/firebox might cost you more than a bit as well.

None of these things need to be very expensive.

At minimum, putting the expense off by trying the less expensive things at this stage might allow you to save up and see if you want to spend more money later to put a stove in the living room (where I think you really want it).

If you just moved in, sometimes it helps to wait and get a sense of how you will use the space in practice, not on paper.

One caveat: I'm assuming the cost of oil heating is pretty high and gas is reasonable or even cheap (but may not be where you are). I don't see why you couldn't use the gas more to offset the oil cost more consistently, and be more comfortable to boot - all the while saving up for what you really want to do later (and leaving the gas as supplemental for that room / really cold weather later).

 

[Ashful]

Thanks for the replies, guys! To answer a few of the questions:

1. We do not have natural gas available, so we have a 500 lb. LP gas bottle buried in the back yard. It fuels two of our three fireplaces (this being one of them), a garage heater, a barbeque, and some other small items. We have not paid to have this tank re-filled yet, but the estimates we have received, coupled with the published efficiency of the gas heater versus the published efficiency of our oil-fired boiler, put the cost of operating that gas insert at roughly 3x the cost of oil (per BTU). Any improvement in efficiency of that gas liner might narrow the gap a bit, but it will always be more expensive to operate than my oil-fired boiler, based on pure fuel costs.

2. We don't like looking at the gas insert. It reeks of "new house" to me, and this is a proper old farm house. I grew up in a house with three open-hearth fireplaces, and enjoy burning wood.

3. I was on target for a $5000 annual oil bill in our first months of this winter, based on how the previous owners used the house (all manual T-stats left at constant temperature). I have knocked that down to less than $3500 with programmable thermostats (we have 6 oil heating zones covering 5500 square feet). I am hoping to get closer to $2500 annual oil with use of wood.

4. I have access to free wood, for the cost of processing. Processing cost is gas for the tractor and chainsaws, and a little bit of my time (~2 hours per week in winter months, always preparing for the following year), which I actually enjoy.

So, I'm pretty well resigned to pulling that gas stove and going to wood. Given the annual costs of staying our current course, the up-front cost of the changeover is not a big factor, assuming installation location is the existing fireplace, and we're not installing a new chimney stack or rebuilding the now-defunct one in the living room.

I agree on the circulation issue, and had planned to install duct work to carry hot air from ceiling level in the room with the stove to floor level in the larger living room. We also do anticipate buying a rear heat shield and blower kit for the stove, assuming it is installed in the fireplace, to help move air from the back of the stove into the room on the initial heating cycle. begreen had suggested just putting the stove in the living room, but chimney routing issues and the fact that we already have a fireplace available for the install in another room, make this the less attractive option for us.

 

[Armoured]

Wow, I had no idea about the propane cost issue; never used it except for barbecues.

I don't like the ductwork idea, but up to you.

I'd still be inclined to put a bigger stove in the larger room; could it be put near a wall with a metal chimney up the side of the house? Perhaps not as aesthetically pleasing, so I'd understand if you don't want this.

Given the free wood and a good safe installation, I don't think you should feel uncomfortable leaving a quality stove burning at low rates much of the time - even if you're not comfortable having it at 'high output' when you leave.

A soapstone cat (if you like soapstone) or other long-burning should be able to burn slow enough to not heat you out if circulation is improved (assuming you don't get the absolute biggest), and from the sounds of how you're using, bringing it up to where it contributes real heat to the house shouldn't take _that_ long (especially if oil furnace is helping at the margins). Leaving it burning when you're done (e.g. at night) will still cut down on your oil costs, as well as making the whole place more comfortable. It'll keep the house from cycling down and up in heat quite so much, too.

But placement and circulation seem much more important choices than the stove; there's lots of good ones.

 

[begreen]

Note that the stoves I mentioned will only require ember protection for the hearth. This could be done on top of the existing wood floors.

 

[mfglickman]

Note that the stoves I mentioned will only require ember protection for the hearth. This could be done on top of the existing wood floors.

Wouldn't some of the woodwork around the fireplace need to be removed or shielded somehow? I'm asking for selfish reasons as I too have a "modern" stove in a similar 1700's fireplace.

 

[Ashful]

Thanks. I think that we may get to the point where we are running it 24/7, but not having grown up with a wood stove, I just haven't yet wrapped my mind around loading it up and leaving the house just yet. I grew up in a house with open 3 fireplaces, and we did not burn them unattended, period. As we get more comfortable with running the stoves while we're home, we'll probably become more willing to let them run while we're out.

There is an old chimney in the wall shown at the lower edge of my original floorplan sketch, but it has been knocked off below the roof line at some point in the past. So, it may be possible to open the roof (metal standing seam), reconstruct the upper portion of that chimney, clear and reline, and install a stove in the living room. However, that would take our proposed installation from the $5000 price range to perhaps $15,000.

Of course it's always possible to run a metal flue either inside or out. Given the location on the front of the house, in a neighborhood with lots of restrictions on appearances and construction, an exterior metal flue would not be acceptable. An interior metal flue is always possible, but would eat into precious bedroom space on two floors above, and has its own obstacles in terms of routing between large hand-hewn beams. I also don't like cutting large holes thru two floors of original 1770's wood planking.

So, while the fireplace location may not be as ideal as the living room, I think it is the most sensible compromise for our situation. I do believe it can be made to work, despite a few obstacles.

Quick view of chimney location for living room install. Existing fireplace chimney is in rear left (rear gable of 1770's stone part). Chimney for living room install would be where I drew the red line.

Note that the stoves I mentioned will only require ember protection for the hearth. This could be done on top of the existing wood floors.

Perfect. That's exactly the type of thing I'm looking for. Thanks!

Wouldn't some of the woodwork around the fireplace need to be removed or shielded somehow? I'm asking for selfish reasons as I too have a "modern" stove in a similar 1700's fireplace.

Actually, we have a stove installed in a similar fireplace in the other end of the house without issue. It was installed by the previous owners in 1993, and we use it regularly. You just have to be sure you maintain recommended clearances, which is not so diffcult in a firebox that size. Here's a photo:

 

[begreen]

Somehow I wonder if that was installed legally honoring clearances. Hard to say with the door closed.

 

[Ashful]

Somehow I wonder if that was installed legally honoring clearances. Hard to say with the door closed.

Interesting story on that stove. That fireplace was part of the original summer kitchen, once a separate structure from the house. The previous owners made an addition to the house, which encompased that old fireplace. Upon completion of the project, the code enforcement officer would not permit them to use the fireplace, as it did not meet modern code, even though it had been used without incident almost continuously over 220 years. In any case, their work-around was to install the stove, which satisfied code enforcement.

Here is a photo with the doors open:


I measured the clearances, and the closest spot on the lintel is 25" from the front top edge of the stove. The closest door jamb is 19" from the front corner of the stove. The owner's manual for this stove provides many clearance guidelines, most being 21" perpendicular off the sides, but none off the front corners. I can say we used it all winter, and never saw the wood get too warm, and the old paint on these doors and lintel shows no signs of ever being heated. This firebox is significantly larger than the one at the other end of the house, where we're looking to do the new install.

begreen: I checked out the Jotul F55 at the local dealer. I was not a big fan of the more contemporary appearance, but of the stoves they had on their showroom floor, it was the only high efficiency toploader in that size class. It looked like a good stove. I still need to check out the others on your list.

Thanks!

 

[Ashful]

I would consider the Jotul F55, Pacific Energy T5, and Enviro Boston 1700 stoves, with blower.

Been looking at these stoves, and have a few questions. Forgive me if these are newbie idiot questions, but I'm relatively new to wood stoves / always stuck to open fireplaces.

1. I see many of the stoves in this size range have a max log length of 18". I think my Jotul 12 takes 24" log length, and I usually buck to just over 20" (length of my chain bar, which makes a handy measuring stick) to get them thru the door easier. So, with a second smaller stove, I guess my best option is to just cut everything to 16", giving up the advantage of the larger log capacity of the larger stove? Big deal? No?

2. Jotul makes a big deal about the top-loader capability of their older stoves, stating it's a much better way to load than the front door. So, other than getting the stove started, the top-load door is how we load all wood into the Jotul 12. Now the Jotul dealer is making a big deal about the side load door, again frowning on loading thru the front door. His reason, I believe, is getting longer logs thru the smaller front opening. Knowing that using a side load door won't be an option if installing in a 48" wide fireplace, is using the front door really a bad way to go? Having to find a high efficiency non-cat stove with a top-load door really limits the choices.

Thanks!

 

[begreen]

Compromise and cut to 18".

I deliberately did not mention top loading stoves for this space. the deeper it is into the firebox cavity the more you are going to want a front loader. I've been front load heating for decades. Had a top loader once and liked it. But I like a roomy front loader just as much. They have the advantage of being less complex and less gaskets to leak and replace.

 

[BrowningBAR]

I deliberately did not mention top loading stoves for this space. the deeper it is into the firebox cavity the more you are going to want a front loader.

Agreed. Top loading is great, but it could be quite a pain, or impossible, with tight top clearances. Top loading is only a preference, or a convenience, for some. It does not improve the heating capabilities of the stove.

And the dealer's theory of getting a longer burn from a side loader is a load of crap. Side loading has nothing to do with burn times.

I've had top loaders, side loaders, and will have a front loader in a few months. I'm not a fan of side loading. But, that is a preference and does not effect the stoves heating or burning capabilities.

 

[BrowningBAR]

Compromise and cut to 18".

Also, agree. With multiple stoves, the stove that accepts the smallest splits wins. If you cut your own wood, you can get creative once you know how much would you burn through in each stove. You can have a stack of 22" splits and a stack of 18" splits.

I would just go with 18", though.

For me, the Defiant takes up to 24" splits, the Encore takes 22" splits, and the 30NC will take 20" splits. 20" splits is what I am going with.

 

[Ashful]

It seems to me Jotul was pushing the advantage of having a top-load door in all their old literature, because their stove had one, and some of their competitors did not. When they went to cat-less reburn technology, and were forced to lose the top-load door on most of their models, they added a side-load door. Suddenly, they're telling everything that's the best way to load, again because they added the cost of having one to all their larger stoves. If front loading is not a bad way to go, then I can just plan on doing that. I do notice a flury of ashes (due to draft) when I initially pull the front doors open on my Jotul 12, which I do not experience when using the top-load door, but I guess there's nothing wrong with throwing some ash up in the firebox during a re-load.

I do currently load the Jotul 12 with the top-load door, despite it being set deep in a fireplace. The lintel on that fireplace is at 60", and I can stand erect inside, so it's not a big deal to reach the top load door. The new install will be going in a narrower and shallower fireplace, but with the same 60" lintel height. So, I could use top-load if I had one, but I don't need one.

Given that the total space I'm trying to heat is roughly 800 square feet, and most seem to think I should go a little on the large side to account for the heavy stone walls and installation within a stone fireplace, I think I should be looking at stoves sized for roughly 1500 square feet / 45,000 BTU. Perhaps a Jotul 3?

Again, two of the local Jotul salespeople recommended very different sizing to me, one recommending I stay around 40,000 BTU and the other suggesting closer to 80,000 BTU. Unfortunately, it's too late in our season (too warm) for me to do a meaningful heat loss study on that part of the house right now (interior is holding 67-70 with no heat running), and I don't want to wait until next year to do this stove install. If I buy the wrong stove, assuming the flue size is the same, I can always sell and buy one size up or down the following year.

I'm not set on Jotul either. It's just what I already have and know, and the two biggest hearth shops in the area are both Jotul dealers. One also carries Hearthstone, but told me to stick with Jotul unless I want soapstone.

 

[BrowningBAR]

Given that the total space I'm trying to heat is roughly 800 square feet, and most seem to think I should go a little on the large side to account for the heavy stone walls and installation within a stone fireplace, I think I should be looking at stoves sized for roughly 1500 square feet / 45,000 BTU. Perhaps a Jotul 3?

Ignore BTU ratings. For 1500 sq ft of heating shoot for a stove with about a 2 cu ft firebox like the Jotul Castine, Pacific Energy Alderea T5, Lopi Republic, Vermont Castings Encore, Quadra-fire Cumberland Gap, etc. Will those stoves fit in your fireplace? I do not know. You will need to look at the demensions.

 

[begreen]

The Castine is a bit on the smaller side with closer to 1.6 cu ft usable. But in this group maybe include the Hampton H300 and Hearthstone Shelburne. Top or side loaders could be a bit of a pita if the stove is recessed in the fireplace. A blower would be more important in that case. Also, pay attention to hearth requirements if the goal is to not add the cost of tearing up flooring and redoing the hearth.

 

[Ashful]

Cool. Thanks, guys! Yes, it would be great to not have to do anything with the floor, although I might still end up doing some flooring work just from the point of errant ember control, if not for the pure combustable clearances. I would hate to have to put a portable pad under this stove, as it would interfere with the doors, which we will keep and close when the stove is not in use.

 

[begreen]

As previously mentioned, the woodwork may have to go due to clearances. If the stove specs say that the woodwork can stay it's not a big deal. One could pick up the pad and put it alongside the stove. But I suspect in winter the stove would be burning a lot.

 

[mfglickman]

Interesting story on that stove. That fireplace was part of the original summer kitchen, once a separate structure from the house. The previous owners made an addition to the house, which encompased that old fireplace. Upon completion of the project, the code enforcement officer would not permit them to use the fireplace, as it did not meet modern code, even though it had been used without incident almost continuously over 220 years. In any case, their work-around was to install the stove, which satisfied code enforcement.

Here is a photo with the doors open:
View attachment 64770

I measured the clearances, and the closest spot on the lintel is 25" from the front top edge of the stove. The closest door jamb is 19" from the front corner of the stove. The owner's manual for this stove provides many clearance guidelines, most being 21" perpendicular off the sides, but none off the front corners. I can say we used it all winter, and never saw the wood get too warm, and the old paint on these doors and lintel shows no signs of ever being heated. This firebox is significantly larger than the one at the other end of the house, where we're looking to do the new install.

begreen: I checked out the Jotul F55 at the local dealer. I was not a big fan of the more contemporary appearance, but of the stoves they had on their showroom floor, it was the only high efficiency toploader in that size class. It looked like a good stove. I still need to check out the others on your list.

Thanks!

There's not a top to combustibles clearance? On my Fireview that's the biggest one - 31 inches. The Fireview is in our addition and there was only about 20 inches from the top to the nearest point on the lintel so we had to heat shield it (which took the clearance down to 12 inches).

Funny thing about code/inspectors - they will leave you alone until you make a change and then you have to bring up to modern code. Living in a 1750's house I feel your pain on that. People either walk in here and love it or they act like it might just fall down at any moment because it's so old, lol. My feeling is it's stood over 250 years, it's not going anywhere (as long as I'm careful with my wood and pellets, knock wood).

In my larger hearth I've got a pellet stove as I could not make the clearances to combustibles work out with the woodwork and cabinetry surrounding the old hearth/oven. Maybe I'll check out the stoves mentioned in these threads for smaller clearances than Woodstock...

Mary

 

[Ashful]

There's not a top to combustibles clearance? On my Fireview that's the biggest one - 31 inches. The Fireview is in our addition and there was only about 20 inches from the top to the nearest point on the lintel so we had to heat shield it (which took the clearance down to 12 inches).

I did not see it listed in the literature for my Jotul 12, but intuition would say that's likely the most critical. In my case, that stove is set so deep in the firebox there's nothing above it but chimney. The lintel is well out in front, and with 25" clearance to the nearest point, it does not seem to be any problem. For the new install, I do expect we will use a heat shield on the lintel for peace of mind, even if not necessary.

It seems to me our modern notion of idiot proofing everything was not embraced by past generations. Both of my fireplaces have wood doors on them, and this was not for decoration. They closed those doors with an active fire in the box for the purpose of smoking meats. They just used common sense, maintained a small fire, and kept an eye on the situation.

 

[Ashful]

Ignore BTU ratings. For 1500 sq ft of heating shoot for a stove with about a 2 cu ft firebox... You will need to look at the demensions.

I don't see the firebox size listed in most cases, such as Jotul 3 or 400. I don't even see interior firebox dimensions for the purpose of calculating the firebox volume. Am I missing something obvious?

Also, the most basic newbie/idiot question: Is there any disadvantage to going big? Seems the Jotul 400 is likely plenty sufficient for the space I'm trying to heat, but I could get longer burn times with a 500 or 600. Assuming I can maintain clearances, etc., why not go bigger? No saying I would load it full when the air control is open, but for cases when I'm running it with the air control choked down for max burn time, seems the bigger fire box would be a big advantage.

Thanks.

 

[BrowningBAR]

Also, the most basic newbie/idiot question: Is there any disadvantage to going big?

That depends upon your floor plan, insulation/draftyness, and comfort level. For me, my floor plan is not open, I'm in an old drafty house, and I like it really warm. Next winter I will have 9 cu ft of fireboxes heating 2,150 sq ft. Complete over kill, but I will be warm with long burn times. If I had a more open layout and/or suffered less heat loss things would probably be uncomfortable.

No saying I would load it full when the air control is open, but for cases when I'm running it with the air control choked down for max burn time, seems the bigger fire box would be a big advantage.

Keep in mind, that is not how a modern non-cat stove operates. With a full firebox of dry wood, temps will sit at 550-700 degrees, depending up the stove, even with the air controls 'closed.' If you want less heat from a large stove you will build smaller fires.

 

[Ashful]

Keep in mind, that is not how a modern non-cat stove operates. With a full firebox of dry wood, temps will sit at 550-700 degrees, depending up the stove, even with the air controls 'closed.' If you want less heat from a large stove you will build smaller fires.

Ah! I had not considered this. Thanks for setting me straight.