Putting an insert in a masonry fireplace after removing stone face??

[wwigg]

After purchasing our house four years ago, we did a complete remodel before moving in. Part of it was changing the face of the fireplace. After removing the rock, I realized that the steel box inside was not just some sort of a insert/zero clearance fp.

An inspection revealed that the clay tiles had damage and it was recommended that we reline the flue. After a couple different companies looked at it, it was determined that I have an old queen air. I had quotes from $1500-$3500 for reline and then custom doors would be $1000-$1500. I decided I did not want to put this much into an inefficient fireplace and thus started looking at more efficient inserts or possibly tearing out from top to bottom and putting in efficient fp.

For a temporary fix to the major whole in the house, I framed out with wood studs, insulated and covered with plywood. We HAVE NOT used the fp and WILL NOT until we get all of the wood out. We have finally decided on an insert, fpx large flush, but I have a lot of questions/concerns that I have not been able to get definitive answers to.

1. Since removing the stone, I do not have a masonry fp anymore therefore I can't put this insert in. Can I rebuild the face with metal studs up to the minimal fp opening for the insert, durock, and then stone veneer?

2. If so I need to insulate the wall. Found 4" roxul safe (not safe and sound) but could not find if there was any r value. If I use this will it be sufficient r value wise to keep the heat out during summer and cold during winter?

3. I want to raise the insert inside the box 6". I plan on using block (was told this would be fine) or fire brick if that is advised??

4. I will also raise the hearth 6" as well. Right now I have the hearth framed out with wood 2 x 4's and plywood. Again this was just to make it look somewhat decent for the time being. Can I block on top of this, durock, then tile to raise the hearth the 6" or do I have to tear out the wood and place block down there as well??

I am sure there are more questions but this is a good start and I am sure you will have questions for me that I have left out. I will get some pics to post so maybe you can have a better idea of what I have going on.

Thanks in advance for any advice you might be able to give!!

 

[begreen]

Is the metal Queen Aire still in there? Can you post some pictures so that we see what you have now?

 

[wwigg]

Yes it is still in. I removed the face of it that held the doors. Here is a current pic. I also cut the lintel so I could raise the insert. I will dig to see if I have some original pics.

 

[wwigg]

The studs on the left and right are part of what I added when covering the hole. They will come out.

 

[wwigg]

Is everyone just staying as far away from this one as possible

Thinking about putting 8" block on the face of the exposed steel box up to the minimal fp opening for the insert and then metal studs flush with the block for the remainder of the opening. I have talked to building inspectors from two different municipalities and I have the sense that they just want to look at the installation manual and make sure you are clear as far as combustibles.

I have been reading on this site for a couple years and have learned a ton from you guys. One of the focal points when I started reading was dry wood. Thankfully I had one huge tree standing dead and my neighbor had two good size ones that I have cut and split. Moisture content is 17%-19% and I am ready to start burning it.

Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated!!

 

[HomeinPA]

Well, I know nothing about a Queen Aire fireplace. I must say that in 20+ years I have never seen one around here.

IF you can find some type of manufacturer's data plate with UL listing information on it you might be able to come up with a legitimate code compliant plan for installing something but my guess is you're going to have to be lucky to do it. I don't see a proper hearth extension and the clearances that you have (not commenting on the new studs) for framing and header would need to be approved by someone from code and/or your insurance company. IN WRITING. After all that you'd have to find a stove that would approve installation in that firebox - which you could accomplish by contacting their technical support people and then work from there. I'm not saying it can't be done though.

 

[wwigg]

Thanks for the info. Will def get it in writing.

On the hearth extension are you referring to just what you see in the pic with the plywood? The hearth in the pic was just what I did 3 years ago to cover up the mess until we figured out the unit we were looking for.

 

[HomeinPA]

Thanks for the info. Will def get it in writing.

On the hearth extension are you referring to just what you see in the pic with the plywood? The hearth in the pic was just what I did 3 years ago to cover up the mess until we figured out the unit we were looking for.

Yes. I didn't realize that was actually plywood. I thought it was cement board on something....? I don't know. But yes, the hearth extension is one of many factors I see that will need addressed.

 

[begreen]

All I could find out about the Queen Air was for a metal form fireplace, like a heatform, that was designed to provide better heat output. It had glass doors and sounds like it may have had a convective jacket. It was made starting in 1979 in NE Oklahoma by a company owned by George Mayer Manufacturing Inc..

Wwigg what connects to the wide and narrow opening above the firebox opening in your fireplace?

 

[wwigg]

All I could find out about the Queen Air was for a metal form fireplace, like a heatform, that was designed to provide better heat output. It had glass doors and sounds like it may have had a convective jacket. It was made starting in 1979 in NE Oklahoma by a company owned by George Mayer Manufacturing Inc.

Wwigg what connects to the wide and narrow opening above the firebox opening in your fireplace?

Yes they were made not too far from here. They are similar/identical to the New Aire product made outside of Joplin, MO. There is not much info on here about the New Aire either.

Are you asking about the dark space on each side next to the insulated ducts (the white material)? If so that is just empty space inside the chase. The chase is made of rock. The insulated ducts were tied to the return air, but I have since removed from the return air.

 

[begreen]

I'm wondering about this slot are here. Is this a convection duct intake or output? If yes, does the flue pipe pass through it?


I came across New-Aire when reading up about Queen Air. They appear to be still alive and kicking.
http://newaire.com/

 

[wwigg]

Oh yeah sorry. Output I am pretty sure. There is a thermo disk located in that opening and I have not been able to locate where the wires go. The intakes are located on the bottom left and right. I also am pretty sure the flue does not pass through it but could be wrong on that. The flue sets back from this opening. I will look in the damper and see if I can tell. My flue is 13 x 17. The liner they quoted was olympia forever flex 316ti which will be wrapped with insulation. Do you see any issues with this?

Also I am looking at putting a flush insert in and would like to raise the floor. Could I just put fire brick on the floor and then lay a sheet or two of durock to achieve the desired height?

 

[begreen]

I don't see a problem with the liner or raising the insert.

 

[wwigg]

I don't see a problem with the liner or raising the insert.

Great! Thanks begreen! What are your thoughts on 8" block on the face of the fp up to the min opening for my insert and then metal studs elsewhere? Or should I just block the whole thing? There plenty of foundation support in place from what was previously there.

 

[begreen]

Great! Thanks begreen! What are your thoughts on 8" block on the face of the fp up to the min opening for my insert and then metal studs elsewhere? Or should I just block the whole thing? There plenty of foundation support in place from what was previously there.

I'm not a mason, but in theory it sounds acceptable if it passes inspection. @bholler would 8" block pass code to maintain appropriate surrounding at the front of the insert?

 

[HomeinPA]

Great! Thanks begreen! What are your thoughts on 8" block on the face of the fp up to the min opening for my insert and then metal studs elsewhere? Or should I just block the whole thing? There plenty of foundation support in place from what was previously there.

The first question about the masonry would be- Are you working off a cement floor or just the hearth extension?

If you're on a solid base I'd go up with 4" block or 8", using a lintel to go across the top of the box and then block the rest of the way up. Put the block on just like you would be if you were reusing the fireplace. Do not lower the front to where the insert just fits. You need to have room to reach inside and make your connections and whatever may need done down the road. The surround will cover the opening when done.

You can make the raised hearth extension out of block. Then put hearth stones on top and finish the front of the face with stone or tile or...stucco, whatever you want.

I've stuck a couple pics of something I did similar except we remove the steel firebox completely and rebuilt a masonry firebox as well as a raised hearth with stone finish.


(Obviously not the finished product.)

 

[wwigg]

I'm not a mason, but in theory it sounds acceptable if it passes inspection. @bholler would 8" block pass code to maintain appropriate surrounding at the front of the insert?

Thanks begreen. I'm guessing he is going to say 8" only if firebox lined with 2" firebrick, otherwise 10" block on outside. I have dug a little more and found that. I guess I can go inside of the box and add firebrick to achieve this without adding more depth on the face. Thanks again for your help on this.

 

[bholler]

Thanks begreen. I'm guessing he is going to say 8" only if firebox lined with 2" firebrick, otherwise 10" block on outside. I have dug a little more and found that. I guess I can go inside of the box and add firebrick to achieve this without adding more depth on the face. Thanks again for your help on this.

You are correct.

 

[Bootstrap]

I would tear that whole thing out of the house and look to install a free standing stove on a brick hearth with a new stainless steel triple insulated metal chimney.

Something like what the picture below, which I googled...

 

[HomeinPA]

You are correct.

What am I missing or am I misunderstanding what he's doing here? Why does the face need to be 10"? That would recess the firebox an additional 10" and then the insert isn't going to line up.

 

[bholler]

What am I missing or am I misunderstanding what he's doing here? Why does the face need to be 10"? That would recess the firebox an additional 10" and then the insert isn't going to line up.

Not the face. The firebox walls

 

[HomeinPA]

Thinking about putting 8" block on the face of the exposed steel box up to the minimal fp opening for the insert and then metal studs flush with the block for the remainder of the opening.

Not the face. The firebox walls

The first comment was what I was referring to, where he mentions refacing the existing firebox. I missed where we went to the walls of the firebox. Are you/is he, now debating removal of the entire steel firebox?

 

[wwigg]

The first question about the masonry would be- Are you working off a cement floor or just the hearth extension?

If you're on a solid base I'd go up with 4" block or 8", using a lintel to go across the top of the box and then block the rest of the way up. Put the block on just like you would be if you were reusing the fireplace. Do not lower the front to where the insert just fits. You need to have room to reach inside and make your connections and whatever may need done down the road. The surround will cover the opening when done.

You can make the raised hearth extension out of block. Then put hearth stones on top and finish the front of the face with stone or tile or...stucco, whatever you want.

I've stuck a couple pics of something I did similar except we remove the steel firebox completely and rebuilt a masonry firebox as well as a raised hearth with stone finish.
View attachment 221691 View attachment 221692

(Obviously not the finished product.)

Nice work! Yes the box itself and the block I will be adding are on a solid foundation. It was previously a natural stone and mortar face that I removed early on before I found this site and actually knew anything about fireplaces!!

 

[wwigg]

The first comment was what I was referring to, where he mentions refacing the existing firebox. I missed where we went to the walls of the firebox. Are you/is he, now debating removal of the entire steel firebox?

No we are not planning on tearing out. I had thought about that early on but we are just going with large flush from fpx.

 

[bholler]

No we are not planning on tearing out. I had thought about that early on but we are just going with large flush from fpx.

In that case regular block is fine for the face they can be just 4" if you want