Question to all the dealers and anyone else with an opinion

[Nic36]

I am in the process of stove shopping. I have my choice narrowed down to about two, maybe three models of stoves. I have been doing some calling around and talking to some dealers.

However, I have been amazed at the lack of willingness for any dealer to lower their price at all. I have called around enough to where I have a good feel for what must be the Manufacturer's Suggested Retail Price. It seems every dealer has quoted me the retail price or a price higher than the MSRP.

But, none are willing to haggle with me. I'm just amazed that no one is willing to come down even just a bit to try to make a sale. I have even told them up front that I was calling to see if they could come reasonably close to a price I know I could buy the stove for elsewhere. After their quote, I tell them the price I have and they still make no counter offer. I am not asking them to beg me to buy their stove. I was just hoping to negotiate down just a bit.

Am I just a poor negotiator or is there something I'm missing? I'm not trying to insult anyone, I know the stove business is probably not the easiest business in the world. But, my curiosity has got the best of me, so I had to ask.

 

[webbie]

Let me provide some answers - based on my experience as a stove retailer, manufacturer, importer and NOW a customer.

I am shopping now for a hearth product. You might think I have it easy and will get a great deal. Wrong! I will be paying full list or something very close. After all, I am buying only ONE unit which leaves me little negotiating room.

Now let's go a few steps furthers. You are down south. Stoves are slow sellers down there - for instance, you would not have a local store like Preston Trading Post (CT). Such a store sells thousands of stoves each year....and they have better prices than most. But that is NOT because they like to haggle - it is simply because they have the (large) capital and also the gumption to purchase large quantities of stoves and hold them in stock. That allows for cheaper freight and a lower sales price.

When I had my store, I did the same. We kept between 200 and 300 stoves and fireplaces in OUR warehouse, often buying by the tractor trailer load or 1/2 load (40-50 stoves) from a single manufacturer/order. As a result, we WOULD 100% talk price (negotiate) on a deal or more likely we priced them low in the first place.

But manufacturers (some) tended to frown on this. I received phone calls from most of the biggies (Travis/VC, etc.) telling me that other dealers were complaining about our prices and sales. Sure, that is illegal (for makers to set retail prices) and they never tried to force me, but they can institute policies which effectively do the same thing.

For instance, a stove company can have fewer price breaks for quantity to try and level the playing field for smaller dealers.

That is just one "market force". Here is another. As more and more stoves have gotten "semi-custom" with various colors, options and add-ons - it because MUCH more difficult to buy and stock in quantity. So the dealer may have to order each stove and pay higher prices and higher freight costs.

Another factor is that the poor market now means that dealers are selling fewer unit -harder to cover the overhead. This adds insult to injury.

Here is my advice on negotiation....in the current market. You can, of course, just look for the cheapest thing on ebay, craigslist or from an internet retailer or closeout. I'm not knocking this for the DIYer or bargain hunter. But if you are going to work with a local stove shop, I see basically two options:

1. You might get a deal if you are flexible on the exact product or delivery time. Ask them if they have any "dogs" (floor models, etc.) which they want to get rid of. Also, by combining freight with other shipments you might be able to save something...as with buying off-season.

The above might save 5 to 15%.

2. Pay what they ask or near - That is what I'm going to do (if my purchase goes ahead) because I am going to want a certain unit with certain options in a fixed time period.

I am answering this just for overall market perspective - I understand the the typical laws of supply and demand would say that stoves should be cheaper because things are bad now - but, in fact, it is somewhat opposite. Raw materials have gone through the roof and manufacturers are not pumping out more stoves than they need.

You might (no kidding) be able to find some deals on Vermont Castings units because they filed chapter 11 claiming too much inventory - but only their dealers would know if any "deals" have been offered in an attempt to move product.

In my opinion, you and I are the only ones left to keep this economy from going under....so I look at it as my little contribution. My wife wanted me to turn the irrigation on for the season instead of having the local guy do it (who charges $50) - I told her to let him do it, because he needs the money. Sure enough, he came out and said his business was dying because folks could not afford to pay high water bills. When he left my wife agreed I was right for supporting the local guy!

 

[kenny chaos]

Do you negotiate at the gas station? How about when you get your stove and need some wood? Meet me after a day of cutting and splitting wood and try to talk me down... you'll have your hands full with a feisty old timer and a knot along side your head.
Simply accept what it is and go from there. There's e-bay, craigslist, and DIY. I got two perfectly good working stoves and I easily convinced the wife into spending $1200 for a USED stove which retailed at $3400! Those small specialty shops work on the cheap with all the major overhead of the big guys without the tax incentives, volume, mass marketing, etc., etc. they got when they moved into town. I feel guilty that I couldn't support them.
gimme a break.

 

[BrotherBart]

Do you negotiate at the gas station?

If I am buying $2,500 worth of gas at one time you bet your butt I do.

 

[Nic36]

Thanks for that very detailed response. I already suspected some of the reasons you gave. Some others, I had not. I expected the downturn in the economy to give me more flexibility. I can understand how the price of materials and etc. can offset this.

I really would like to buy locally. The closest dealer to me has been very friendly, and I would like to deal with them. I may give them a call back or go by.

Yeah, I don't expect to negotiate on everything, but when I can buy something elsewhere for a few Ben Franklins less, I do expect some haggling to take place. I don't plan to negotiate on wood at all. Wood stoves aren't popular down here. I can get all the wood I can cut up and haul away for free. People actually cut it up and set in by the curb for the city or county to haul off. But, that's the reason why I'm putting in a stove. I just hope others don't get wise to the money I'll be saving.

 

[btj1031]

Kenny - a gallon of gas is a totally different comodity than a cast iron stove. Dealer markups, volume sold, inventory turnover, seasonal customer demand - totally different. I never expect to negotiate on a tank of gas, always on something like a wood stove and always when I buy multiple cords of wood c/s/d. With cord wood, for example, its the season to make money for loggers and folks with wood lots. If a logger has an operation going, has a couple of guys working for him seasonally, and operates a processor, now is the time to make money. As a consumer, I'm aware of this. The logger also knows there's 2 other guys advertising in the paper for the same price. When I'm discussing a deal with him, and I say for a $10/cord discount I'll take delivery tomorrow, you don't think maybe he'll jump instead of taking the risk that I say no thanks and call the next guy? I did just that a couple weeks ago. I called the fellow I got wood from last year, and he was $15 higher than I saw in the paper. He said he needed to get full price due to the cost of fuel. I said I fully understand, but my money's tight too, so I've got to shop around. I called the next guy, who granted I had never dealt with before so I was taking a risk, and he was willing to talk right away. We made a deal, and I got the wood the next day - 4 fair cords of nice wood, saved $60. I know logging and cutting wood is tough work, but I work hard too and my money doesn't come easy, so there's nothing wrong with talking.

Similar experience buying the wood stove. I bought my Jotul at the height of the season when it was zero degrees outside. I made a purchase at the first stove shop I visited (after doing extensive Internet research on brands and models), but only because the dealer was willing to talk. If he wasn't, I was willing to at least check out the next stove shop, literally one mile down the road. Of course they don't sell Jotuls, and I really wanted one (the dealer didn't know that), but I at least would have walked out of the first store and seen what was going on down the road. So, for the Jotul dealer, his choice was to risk seeing me walk out the door after spending an hour with me, or throw in the short leg kit (~$50.00 value), and sell me a stove and the installation for over $2,000 right then. In both cases I'm supporting the local guy, but I'm also saving myself a couple dollars and feeling like I got a fair deal.

If nobody's willing to talk, it may be due to a variety of reasons. The webmaster has some excellent insight. But there's nothing wrong with giving negotiation a try.

 

[stanleyjohn]

some discounts can be made!even in the stove business.When I recently bought my wood stove from my local dealer i asked about any end of season specials.He knocked off $200 on the stove!Said he wanted to get rid of current inventory to made room for new shipments.It was for many of the brands that he sold so dont think discount was for discontinued models.

 

[kenny chaos]

Nic36 asked for opinions. I didn't.

 

[webbie]

J is right about negotiating for "stuff" as opposed to dollars....when we had a customer bargaining hard, we would throw in $50 worth of accessories.....sometimes even $100. This would satisfy the customer and also give us a chance at getting some of the money back - example....a $100 credit on acc. may only cost the dealer $60, and then the customer might buy a $150 toolset, with the result being that we (the dealer) would only be behind about $40 for that $100 credit.

Some deliveries could be made for little or nothing. Instead of having our installers do it, maybe my manager or me would do it on the way to work. Since we both had company cars or vans, and neither of us were paid by the hour (we were salary), this would not be noticeable on the bottom line. In such cases we would tell the customer "It's going in the driveway or garage".....or else have them help us if the inside delivery was easy.

In summary, I think one can expect to negotiate to SOME degree for hearth products...similar to other appliances. Go to the locally owned appliance (TV, dishwashers) store and you can usually make some kind of a deal...and they, of course, work on a much lower profit than a stove dealer (but much more turnover).

 

[Redox]

There is a difference between shopping and negotiating. Shopping is when you walk in, look at the stickers and kick the tires. After you have made your decision, you get down to the negotiating. A friend of mine who is a finance man noted that when they stop following you out the door with an offer, you have probably hit the best deal. Sure, you could probably find a better deal if you go out of state, but then you have to deal with freight and other issues. If the dealer seems upstanding, cut the check and don't look back. You might check to see if he will give you a discount for cash, as Visa takes a percentage if you charge it.

When we bought our Quad, I spent months wondering whether it was the best deal possible. I paid full price for the exact stove I wanted, trimmed just the way I wanted and dropped into the back of my truck within the timeframe that the dealer quoted. Now I look back on all the money I saved on fuel and firewood and wonder why I didn't do it sooner!

Chris

 

[btj1031]

Kenny, you didn't have to ask, you posted your opinion to a forum, and we're all here to throw in our 2 cents. You also got all tough guy on an anonymous Internet forum, which is pretty funny, in my opinion.

 

[Redox]

Gentlemen! Let's not take everything said here personally! We're all entitled to our opinions. It's like having kids; you have to pick your battles...

Chris

 

[btj1031]

Redox, I must not have learned this lesson yet, I don't have any kids!

 

[Redox]

Steep curve on that one, my man! 12 years and still learning...

 

[aussieblake]

I shop around for every thing I purchase unless it is an item needed immediately. Yesterday my brother and I set my new T6, I called the ONLY local dealer who did not have one in stock and they quoted me full retail. I called all the other dealers listed in my state, all had a price that was atleast $200 lower, one dealer was actually $600 lower for an new ordered in unit. Concerned about fuel prices he asked if a freight terminal was located near by, yes 3 miles away. It was shipped there at no cost. I saved $600 dollars and only had to drive 6 miles (round trip).

When buying gas, groceries, and other small items no I do not expect to negotiate, buy when spending more money like for a stove purchase do not expect to pay full retail price. You can ask Lowe's and Home Depot for a 10% discount and sometimes get it.

I am currently in the process of reroofing my house, I have several estimates from very reputable contractors and this is a $1600 difference between two of the contractors using the exact same shingle. The bigger contractor (more buying power and two miles up the road) is the higher quote. Some business's bank on the fact that people do not shop around. I for one shop around and try to negotiate.

So does everyone here who says pay retail price for the stove, pay the full sticker price for new vehicle? Or the asking price on a used vehicle? How about buying a home.

I consider myself a smart shopper, saving $5 is not worth my time or GAS, but purchasing a $1000+ dollar stove saving a $100 is worth my time and to be honest someone out there wants my business, they will negotiate on the price. Maybe with the spike in propane costs, stove dealers are betting on customers will pay full retail. Most of the stove dealers in my either alread had the stoves discounted from full retail or would negotiate. One local dealer mentioned an "early buy" for next season, I expressed my interest in possibly adding on a purchase with the early buy, but later was notified that the dealer was not doing an early buy this year. Guess he is not planning on selling a lot of stoves this year, selling at full retail that does not surprise me.

aussieblake

 

[STOVEGUY11]

Now is a tough time to get a deal with the 2008 prices just now going into effect which have gone up from 2007 2-5% depending on the company. Also, most of these dealers buy there stoves in an early buy program, so the new stoves for the 08 season are coming in now. Hense they dont want to give you a discount on what they just paid more for from the previous season.

 

[Carl]

Most of the stoves I purchased were at a discounted price, either at the end of the season or by just calling around to dealers within 100 miles from home. This last stove we purchased a month ago was discounted $600.00 I think. Don't really know anymore what the real value of anything is. I do know most don't pay the manufacturers suggest price which makes it really difficult to tell if you are getting a deal.

The stove we purchased was the color we wanted and had been discontinued. All the colors are now very dark and we liked the lighter stove. After going back several times and finally talking to the owner who gave us a better price than the salesman we took it. No service from what I can tell. The primary draft rod didn't have a fitting on it to hold it on the lever that moves the draft. I put a clip on it for now and need to get hold of the manufacturer to see if they will send me a new rod with a threaded screw and washer on it to hold it together. I mentioned this to the dealer and the person who delivered the stove and they didn't know anything. With service like this it is no wonder I wouldn't pay full price nor should have.

My theory......shop around and buyer beware for the most part.

 

[cocey2002]

I'm learning very quicky that some of these dealers will try and make a fortune off of their customers. They just don't want to make a nice profit. From this forum I have a pretty good idea of what my stove of interest costs. I have not had an estimate even close to what I think is reasonable. I'll keep shopping but I'm running out of dealers quick. For example every dealer wants to charge me $400 extra for a blower for an insert. I just don't trust most of these people that I have dealt with.

 

[RedRanger]

The one you see on my avatar was installed this past Monday. Local dealer 10 miles away-$1987 and the other dealer 50 miles away $1589. Needless to say-"I took the drive".. :coolsmirk:

 

[STOVEGUY11]

The deals that your going to find now are models that dealers are trying to unload from the 07 season. With the 08 prices in effect now its hit or miss with a deal. If one dealer has a model in stock, he obviuosly going to give you a better deal than the guy down the street from you who is all out of stock. Your going to get a discount off of the 07 price. The dealer who doesnt have it in stock has to order it at 08 cost and he doesnt want to lose as much money. Come Sept, October, both there prices will be very similar.

 

[BotetourtSteve]

Real negotiating with real salesmen takes face-to-face contact. Making a few phone calls is going to get you nowhere. Sure you will get prices, but best prices? I doubt it. A good salesman enjoys the banter of making a deal after they size up their "opponent." And they can and do size you up: whether you are serious, whether you may buy right now, are you a nice person (that DOES make a difference), etc.. And all of that is not a knock on good salesmen - they just are making their job fun, and their ability to size up customers effectively goes a long way towards their sales (and income) ability.

 

[Nic36]

I would rather to talk face to face, but some of the dealers I have called have been as much as a three hours drive away. So, that really wasn't worth it.

However, I tried to use this to my advantage. I told them if we could come to a reasonable price, I would drive to the store in my truck and pick up the stove. That didn't really get me anywhere. Before really talking about a stove, two dealers started talking to me about stove pipe/chimney they also carried. I had to tell them I already have the chimney installed. I think they wanted to do the install or at least sell me that too.

What really irked me, is how every dealer I talked to had very little knowledge about the products they were trying to sell me. Several times, I had to correct them on things like what options came with the stove. I figured since they did not have that particular stove in stock, they were not as familiar with it. But, they did not seem familiar with the stoves they said they had on display either.

It seems like all the dealers on this forum really know about the products they sell. Maybe I was expecting the same amount of knowledge out of the dealers I called.

 

[burntime]

I am with your thinking Nic36, but with the way metal prices are going, get in now I would guess on a 3k purchase you could get 250 off or so end of year... Just the raw costs will probobly go up for next year. Finally if all else fails and the dealers are not real friendly or helpful...buy on the net, you get the same service (very little is my guess) but at least you are not paying for it. Line up a sweep to install it. There are a lot of people doing jobs out there...very few are good at what they do! I had a nightmare of an experience with a dealer that only partially installed my stove and then disappeared...I paid by CCard so I just cancelled it and the manufacturer got involved. SStill not right to this day.

 

[Nic36]

I'll buy one soon, one way or the other.

I'm trying to do this all by myself. Well, with a little help from Hearth.com. I have already installed my chimney. I was thinking about having it done, but I realized that probably the only one that really cares about doing it right is me. It was in a difficult place in my attic, and I'm sure I would have been charged out the wazoo anyway. Overall, I think I did a good job, if not better than someone else.

 

[RedRanger]

[quote author="burntime" date="1208652395"]I am with your thinkinow I would guess on a 3k purchase you could get 250 off or so end of year... Just the raw costs will probobly go up for next year. Finally if all else fails and the dealers are not real friendly or helpful...buy on the net, you get the same service (very little is my guess) but at least you are not paying for it. Line up a sweep to install it. There are a lot of people doing jobs out there...very few are good at what they do!

Yes, good points-besides saving 400 on the purchase I also saved $350 on the install. Local dealer wanted 450 for the install and my WETT certified sweep who has been cleaning my chimneys for the past 10 years charged me $100. So in this case the total savings added up to over $750.

You have to be aware though that by going this route you are gonna be prettry much on your own as far as maintenance and part replacement goes. Which means really reading the manual thoroughly and depending on the great bunch of guys and gals on this forum for advice from time-to-time.

And what an awesome bunch they are, eh ;-)