The house is a split level configuration, the stove would go on the 1st floor (basement) and all supply ducts are interior in the space between basement ceiling sheetrock and upstairs flooring, basement cold air returns run up walls to the same space and back. I've decided on going with the outside air kit but will have to get more info on proper installation as the stove would be about 3' below grade.
Realistic savings and fuel value?
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The house is a split level configuration, the stove would go on the 1st floor (basement) and all supply ducts are interior in the space between basement ceiling sheetrock and upstairs flooring, basement cold air returns run up walls to the same space and back. I've decided on going with the outside air kit but will have to get more info on proper installation as the stove would be about 3' below grade.
Poindexter
Minister of Fire
My personal experience is to not bother with an OAK unless you need one. certainly figure out where an OAK would go....
If you have an HRV, yep, OAK is a good idea and make the HRV easier to balance.
Without an HRV, not so much. The house I am in was built 40 years ago. At the time it was state of the art, no hats on the jiffy boxes on the outside walls, phone and cable drilled straight trough with a bit of caulk on the outside walls; 40 years later air leaks and mold abatement are a nightmare, but I got vapor barrier right under the drywall.
If you don't need an OAK, keep the air turnovers to forestall mold issues.
The best advice I have heard is figure out where the OAK should go, get the stove in, run it. If you don't need an OAK, you are golden. If you do need an OAK, you know where to put it.
If you have an HRV, yep, OAK is a good idea and make the HRV easier to balance.
Without an HRV, not so much. The house I am in was built 40 years ago. At the time it was state of the art, no hats on the jiffy boxes on the outside walls, phone and cable drilled straight trough with a bit of caulk on the outside walls; 40 years later air leaks and mold abatement are a nightmare, but I got vapor barrier right under the drywall.
If you don't need an OAK, keep the air turnovers to forestall mold issues.
The best advice I have heard is figure out where the OAK should go, get the stove in, run it. If you don't need an OAK, you are golden. If you do need an OAK, you know where to put it.
Poindexter
Minister of Fire
edyit
Minister of Fire
Ashful
Minister of Fire
... and when the hell was #2 fuel oil almost $5/gallon? After a brief blip up in the high $3’s (maybe it bumped $4 once in spring 2014), it’s been running in the $2’s the last three and a half years!Firewood (air dried) 613.9 per cord
Is this Alaskan pricing? Canadian dollars?
We run a wood stove in our basement and use our forced air fan to pull the heat to the 1st and 2nd floors through the duct work. Probably not nearly as efficient as many people here but we use on average about 1/4 tank of oil (50-60 gallons) for heating each winter in PA. Huge savings compared to many of our friends.
I cut split stack the wood myself so very little cost there.
I cut split stack the wood myself so very little cost there.
Highbeam
Minister of Fire
Certainly if you consider your firewood fuel as “free” then you can easily calculate the savings of not using your other heating fuel.
Firewood does have a market value so it is not free. Your time and effort to operate the stove is above and beyond just turning the thermostat.
I would compare the market value of firewood to the cost of conventional fuels when doing this math.
SudsJeff
Member
I have a similar setup to you in that I have a split level house although in a colder winter climate (in Northern Ontario). My stove is also located on the lower level (and an outside wall). I supplement a 98% propane furnace with a 70% EPA wood stove. Based on my calculations ($2.66 gal propane, and $120 a face cord of split/delivered oak), wood is still a fair bit cheaper. Since you are getting your wood for free, you are probably going to save a bundle.
When calculating projected costs, dont forget to multiple your wood BTU by your stoves efficiency. I think its a good call on the fresh air intake (although I dont have one). If you have a big temp delta from outside and your stove is going through X cubic feet of air, thats going to eat away at your actual % efficiency.
Ashful
Minister of Fire
You make a valid argument there, Highbeam. But then one could counter that you’re also saving money on possible gym memberships and other associated healthcare, thanks to the exercise one tends to get as a firewood scrounger of any appreciable volume. Of course, then you’re going to counter with the costs of getting stitched back up at the ER, after some proposed accident...
More realistically, most reports on this forum indicate that people tend to keep their house MUCH warmer with wood. Whether you look at that as an advantage, that you can now keep the house much warmer with less or similar money, or a disadvantage that you’re now consuming more BTUs, is a matter of perspective. I used to let the house drop to 62F every night, heating with oil, but now it stays above 70F all day and all night, whether we are awake, asleep, or at work.
So, if you’re using 100 million BTU’s per year for heat, on a programmable thermostat, you might find yourself using 300 million BTU’s per year in a wood stove. Just sayin’
Well, I personally don't like to heat with wood anymore but this is how I calculated things. Are you sure you only pay $0.13/kWh? I pay $0.13/kWh with $0.19/kWh in delivery fees. In summer if I take my electric bill/kWh I pay $0.29/kWh and $0.34/kWh in winter as winter is more expensive. Also, I'm not sure if air heat exchangers are like geothermal, where heating is not as efficient as cooling. That's to say, a 300% efficient geothermal typically means it's 200%-250% efficient at heating and 350-400% at cooling, making it a better investment if electricity is cheap and used mostly for cooling (aka not New England), and when cooling you can put the heat into your water tank.
I bought a house back in 2004, was going through oil like water (about $3,000/year back in 2004). I bought a wood insert and had it installed and 6 cords of wood for $4,700 investment and saved $2,300 the first year (-$2400)
2nd year 2 cords of wood burned (I fixed a major heat loss and was getting better with insert) with $1300 saved = $-1100
3rd year I insulated attic with 24" insulation and replaced windows dropping wood to 1.5 cords and saved $1100 = $0 (broke even)
<from this point wood was just given to me from neighbors, work, etc. I've not bought wood since>
4th year bought solar hot water system for $3,500 and saved $1700 in oil from hot water & wood = -$1800
5th year insulated basement after seeing how cold exposed cement gets lowering wood use to 1 cord = $0 (broke even)
6th year didn't do much but saved $1800 in oil = +$1800
7th ditto but oil got more expensive = +3700
8th ditto but oil got more expensive = +$5700
9th ditto = +$7700
10th = Since I wasn't using oil boiler, and gaskets needed to be hot to seal properly it had been dripping slowly over the years and rotted to the point it couldn't be repaired so I needed new boiler. $7850 for new boiler that was stainless, and cold start (meaning it's designed to not deteriorate/leak when not in use for months) = -$150
11th = 1 cord used for heating ($0 given to me), 4 gallons/oil used for year ($10) + ($48 in electricity to run solar pumps/yr) = $58/yr for all my heating & hot water needs. -$2000
12th year = Added a couple solar panels for supplemental heating (just 2) so they don't do much but I don't need to light a fire as much. Down to 0.6 - 0.75 cords/wood and 4 gallons/year oil + ($48/year to run solar pump) solar for hot water
All said and done, I personally find wood to be a lot of work, I trek in a lot of dirt, my walls and house get dirty from burning wood, I have to deal with ash, and cleaning the chimney, when I light a fire it's about 40 minutes/day I feel wasted. With all the $ spent, could I go back, I wish I'd just done a good solar heating system, put some PV panels to boot for electricity, and replaced the boiler. Probably be at the same cost as I am now, without the hassle and dirtiness of wood.
I bought a house back in 2004, was going through oil like water (about $3,000/year back in 2004). I bought a wood insert and had it installed and 6 cords of wood for $4,700 investment and saved $2,300 the first year (-$2400)
2nd year 2 cords of wood burned (I fixed a major heat loss and was getting better with insert) with $1300 saved = $-1100
3rd year I insulated attic with 24" insulation and replaced windows dropping wood to 1.5 cords and saved $1100 = $0 (broke even)
<from this point wood was just given to me from neighbors, work, etc. I've not bought wood since>
4th year bought solar hot water system for $3,500 and saved $1700 in oil from hot water & wood = -$1800
5th year insulated basement after seeing how cold exposed cement gets lowering wood use to 1 cord = $0 (broke even)
6th year didn't do much but saved $1800 in oil = +$1800
7th ditto but oil got more expensive = +3700
8th ditto but oil got more expensive = +$5700
9th ditto = +$7700
10th = Since I wasn't using oil boiler, and gaskets needed to be hot to seal properly it had been dripping slowly over the years and rotted to the point it couldn't be repaired so I needed new boiler. $7850 for new boiler that was stainless, and cold start (meaning it's designed to not deteriorate/leak when not in use for months) = -$150
11th = 1 cord used for heating ($0 given to me), 4 gallons/oil used for year ($10) + ($48 in electricity to run solar pumps/yr) = $58/yr for all my heating & hot water needs. -$2000
12th year = Added a couple solar panels for supplemental heating (just 2) so they don't do much but I don't need to light a fire as much. Down to 0.6 - 0.75 cords/wood and 4 gallons/year oil + ($48/year to run solar pump) solar for hot water
All said and done, I personally find wood to be a lot of work, I trek in a lot of dirt, my walls and house get dirty from burning wood, I have to deal with ash, and cleaning the chimney, when I light a fire it's about 40 minutes/day I feel wasted. With all the $ spent, could I go back, I wish I'd just done a good solar heating system, put some PV panels to boot for electricity, and replaced the boiler. Probably be at the same cost as I am now, without the hassle and dirtiness of wood.
I am not sure why you think you wasted money. You were saving lots of money burning wood and it payed for itself pretty quickly. You chose to go another route and thats great but it was not a negstive for the wood stove just your personal choice. If you were still heating with just wood you would have saved tons by now. As far as the dirt yes you bring in some dirt with the wood and yes there is ash. But there is no reason it should make any part of the house but the stove room dirty. If it does there is something wrong with your setup.
So many numbers and and figures...I need a beer! No matter how you slice the pie, wood burning is a heck of a lot better than any furnace, electric, gas or oil!
Do you have any information or suggestions on installing an OAK on a below grade stove? Mine would be about 3-4' below grade. I've realized I would need to have a working outside air supply to the stove to make it work in my home, but blaze king states it should not be installed higher than the bottom of bottom of the firebox. I've not found much info online regarding outside air installs on below grade stoves.
Jan Pijpelink
Minister of Fire
I just had 2, just reading that post. And it's only 7:30 PM!
You either have to install a duct in close proximity to the inlet but not attached as was mentioned earlier or if you have a door to outside run a duct over to it. I am curious what made you realize you need outside air. When was the house built? What has been done to seal it up? Honestly we work on hundreds of stoves a year. And less that 10% of them have fresh air hooked to them. Most of the ones with no oak work fine. You will need one if your house is either extremely tight or if the upper level is very leaky which will cause a chimney effect drawing a vacuum in the basement.
bfitz3
Feeling the Heat
It’s mighty amazing to see two of the sages with 85,000 posts between them learn something from each other. It says a lot about this forum. begreen and bholler, thank you.
I come here to learn. Yes i help people out as well but i have learned allot from many here.
Nuttin’ wrong with that! Ive often been reading posts and had a few myself. I find it enjoyable
If I'm not learnin new stuff I get bored. Crap, and now I jus learned my key oard is crappin ou
Can a mooderator technically be a mooderator without a keyboard??? Hmmm...
Thank you for the response, I'll look into leaving a gap. The house was built in 2010. I came to the need for outside air by the fact that the house is spray foamed in the walls with plastic under the blow in insulation in the ceiling, and despite the HRV and bathroom exhaust fans we struggle to get humidity out in the winter (tough to get humidity below 60%). I don't want to run into draft issues while running a dryer and bathroom exhaust fan for a shower. More than any, I shy away from the idea of pulling cold air into the home through a gap elsewhere, and thus cooling it, to facilitate a draft. Pulling outside air directly into the stove for combustion and out the chimney without entering the home seems ideal, but again I'm new to wood heat.
Those are pretty good reasons. I agree you need make up air. Unfortunatly you cant actually hook one up with the stove below grade.
How big of a gap is required from the plumbing to the stove intake? Knowing air will take the path of least resistance, can I expect the stove to pull enough negative pressure with a gap to utilize the outside air instead of simply pulling ambient air from around the outside air plumbing?
This is the case with me. I keep my house much warmer with wood than if I were to go with the only other installed option (electric baseboard). For myself, the process of collecting wood and processing it is enjoyable. I could, most likely, pick up a side job, use the electric baseboards, and be further ahead financially. However, I enjoy every part of the process of burning wood. I think I made it to July or August this year before I started to look at my fireplace wishing it was cold enough to start a fire. I do the same with the chainsaw and tractor; I'll wish it were cooler so that cutting wood would be enjoyable.
I usually leave at least the diameter of the pipe gap. The problem and the reson you cant hook it directly is that the air at the outlet near the stove is going to be much warmer than the air at the inlet outside. This means air is going to want to go out of the pipe and not in because of the stack effect. Do you have any door in the basement going to outside?
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