I'm penciling out the numbers for payback on buying my first stove, looking at a Blaze King Sirocco 30. I would install it on the 1st floor in a living room of a 2400 sq foot house (1200 per floor) that has spray foam around the foundation and blow in the attic. I have an electric furnace with heat pump that typically runs down to about 29° and has an HRV. Heat bills usually run in the middle to high 200s up to mid 300s on cold months. I'm trying to get a realistic idea on potential monthly savings from running the stove as supplemental heat while home from work and over night, and leaving it on a low burn during the day. Is it realistic to hope for 50% savings on heating costs?
Realistic savings and fuel value?
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Rearscreen
Minister of Fire
Alpine1
Feeling the Heat
I have a BK and a wood stove/boiler and save 2.500 € per year on oil. But we only heat with wood, that I myself cut, split and stack. It all depends on how much you want to use wood for heating: only on weekends just for ambiance, only at night to help central heating, only for the coldest days of the year or 24/7 all winter long. If I were to buy my wood I would still save around 1.500€ per year. But as Rearscreen rightly said, there’s much more than money savings involved in owning and operating a wood stove.
Save money with a wood stove? For sure!
How much is up to you.
Save money with a wood stove? For sure!
How much is up to you.
What is your source for wood? Are you buying it or cutting your own? This stove will want fully seasoned wood. That is very hard to find if buying. Do you have a good stash already stacked and drying? If you are buying you can expect to go through a cord or so a month during the dead of winter.
We are in VA and I run two wood stoves - a Hampton 300I and a Buck 95 cat...I am on heat pumps and have 4500 sq ft above grade. We run the smaller one in the family room when it gets in the 50s at night with a single evening load and start them both full time come winter when its 40s and below.
We normally have an all electric house bill that in the summer runs ~$400 and in the winter it actually drops into the $200-300 range. Of course it all depends on usage particularly when we have guests (primarily due to hot water heating) but we save a lot running wood heat in the winter.
I c/s all the wood myself using on property wood and scrounging. I have easily paid for the install of both stoves and associated splitter and saw over the past ten years - I am "making money" each year now including the up front costs of gear. That written...my labor isn't considered since I count it as a hobby and its a cheap gym membership.
The ability to keep the house toasty warm for the family is priceless but for us, it is a clear money saving hobby. My family likes our house in the upper 70s which is warm, but we have 12-14 ft main floor ceilings so a lot of wasted space.
If I ran the temps that I run the house on with wood heat with jump my electric heat pumps...my winter bills would be $500-700 a month. It really depends on what you are looking for, and if you have to buy wood and if you are willing to work for "free."
For comparison, I brew beer, BBQ my own meat, butcher my own game and make my own sausages and jerky...my cost savings are huge because I like doing the work. If I logged the hours associated with those hobbies, and paid for my time, the savings would be much less. But out of pocket costs are definitely considerable...its the love of labor that makes it cost effective.
We normally have an all electric house bill that in the summer runs ~$400 and in the winter it actually drops into the $200-300 range. Of course it all depends on usage particularly when we have guests (primarily due to hot water heating) but we save a lot running wood heat in the winter.
I c/s all the wood myself using on property wood and scrounging. I have easily paid for the install of both stoves and associated splitter and saw over the past ten years - I am "making money" each year now including the up front costs of gear. That written...my labor isn't considered since I count it as a hobby and its a cheap gym membership.
The ability to keep the house toasty warm for the family is priceless but for us, it is a clear money saving hobby. My family likes our house in the upper 70s which is warm, but we have 12-14 ft main floor ceilings so a lot of wasted space.
If I ran the temps that I run the house on with wood heat with jump my electric heat pumps...my winter bills would be $500-700 a month. It really depends on what you are looking for, and if you have to buy wood and if you are willing to work for "free."
For comparison, I brew beer, BBQ my own meat, butcher my own game and make my own sausages and jerky...my cost savings are huge because I like doing the work. If I logged the hours associated with those hobbies, and paid for my time, the savings would be much less. But out of pocket costs are definitely considerable...its the love of labor that makes it cost effective.
I have a source that will provide me with up to 4 cords a year at no cost. I planned to do some reaching out for more with landowners. I currently have about 3 cords of split and dried wood ready to burn with about 6 cords cut and stacked drying that need another year. I do have access to some more dead trees that flooded out and died about 8 years ago that I considered cutting and splitting the wood that is not rotten to burn this year. Has anyone had experience with this? Seems like the wood should be okay, all the bark is gone but still seems solid. I also would be looking to use the stove almost every day to some extent, depending on how well the heat spreads throughout the house.
Poindexter
Minister of Fire
You have a realistic plan for the BK size 30 box, and you used the word "supplemental". The latter concept is very important to your homeowners carrier.
With a pro installed top end chimney and a new woodstove, my homeowners - as a supplemental user- went up about a buck a week. I do supplement the living snot out of my oil burning furnace, but if i get home from work late no pipes will freeze.
I think it is reasonable to suppose you might burn 3-5 cords annually if you have good insulation and good air seals. I think you will have to work at it pretty hard to actually burn five cords. I would suggest number crunching on 3-4 cords annual burn.
As a supplemental burner what you are doing is warming up the inside of the house, the 'envelope' some with wood so the electric heat doesn't run as much.
So now you are ready for a little math. 3-4 cords of wood, what kind? Hedge? Mesquite? Willow? has a certain amount of BTUs in it. Convert that total BTU number to kwh to figure out how many kwh you are saving, then look at your bill to see what you are paying per kwh, Bob's your uncle.
With a newly installed chimney and a new high end stove, your payoff will likely be several years. But you will have heat when the power is off, and you are likely to keep the house a little warmer when you are home using wood than you would if you were buying electricity.
With a pro installed top end chimney and a new woodstove, my homeowners - as a supplemental user- went up about a buck a week. I do supplement the living snot out of my oil burning furnace, but if i get home from work late no pipes will freeze.
I think it is reasonable to suppose you might burn 3-5 cords annually if you have good insulation and good air seals. I think you will have to work at it pretty hard to actually burn five cords. I would suggest number crunching on 3-4 cords annual burn.
As a supplemental burner what you are doing is warming up the inside of the house, the 'envelope' some with wood so the electric heat doesn't run as much.
So now you are ready for a little math. 3-4 cords of wood, what kind? Hedge? Mesquite? Willow? has a certain amount of BTUs in it. Convert that total BTU number to kwh to figure out how many kwh you are saving, then look at your bill to see what you are paying per kwh, Bob's your uncle.
With a newly installed chimney and a new high end stove, your payoff will likely be several years. But you will have heat when the power is off, and you are likely to keep the house a little warmer when you are home using wood than you would if you were buying electricity.
Ashful
Minister of Fire
hardwood ~ 20 - 24 MBtu/cord
heating oil ~ 138 kBtu/gal
Depending on boiler vs. stove efficiency, which may be roughly similar in many cases, you're looking at roughly 160 gal. of oil saved for each cord you burn. My own personal experience with tracking my oil and wood usage actually agrees with this estimate, I save about 1000 gallons for each 6 cords I burn.
Of course, I may have spent enough money on wood processing toys (errr... "tools") to have undone many, many years of savings.
heating oil ~ 138 kBtu/gal
Depending on boiler vs. stove efficiency, which may be roughly similar in many cases, you're looking at roughly 160 gal. of oil saved for each cord you burn. My own personal experience with tracking my oil and wood usage actually agrees with this estimate, I save about 1000 gallons for each 6 cords I burn.
Of course, I may have spent enough money on wood processing toys (errr... "tools") to have undone many, many years of savings.
Highbeam
Minister of Fire
Many of us, including the op, do not burn oil. It is entirely possible that burning wood costs more to heat your home than using the heat pumps. In that case you are actually paying to use wood. Cheap electricity, expensive wood, good heat pumps, and moderate winter temperatures are what can make this happen.
Poindexter
Minister of Fire
I think he said electric furnace in the OP. 20MBTU -a cord of mixed birch - is somewhere between 6 and a half million kwh.
5800. I think ( my google-fu is not with me tonight) a 20Mbtu cord of ready to go wood would replace about 5800 kwh.
Given I am paying 27 cents for a kwh up here, almost double the national average; if my primary was electric, a cord of wood at 20Mbtu would be "worth" $1566 off my electric bill.
OP is probably paying more like 10-15 cents for a kwh, so more likely a cord of seasoned wood replace $580 to $870 off his/her electric bill.
At three cords a year he could possibly save enough to pay off a BK 30 and a pro installed chimney in three years, give or take. Plus the toy budget, as @Ashful adroitly mentioned.
@SD Golden , just about all of us here to actually save money buy green wood and season it ourselves. To really really save big bucks, you got to buy tools and invest time. I can buy standing timber in the state forest for $10/ cord, but I have to go cut it and haul it home. I can get green logs delivered to my driveway around $150-175/ cord. I can get green splits delivered to my driveways for about $225/ cord. I can buy "seasoned" wood all day, but i can't seem to get it delivered at any price.
And that seems to be the rule on this planet. We have a few folks from Australia and New Zealand who keep the website active in May, June and July, and a few more from Europe, I don't know of anyone who can buy seasoned ready to burn cord wood, and buy it dependably year after year, and get it any cheaper than whatever other fuel they could be using to heat their home. If you got all three of those, you should buy lottery tickets. The rest of us are buying green wood, or collecting it by whatever means, and seasoning down to dry ourselves.
I have a different skin on my BK30 box, an Ashford 30 instead of a Sirocco 30, but mine really shines with fuel at 12-16% MC. 11%MC and under is kind of exciting. 17-20% is OK-fine, a lot of users here running that - many climates in the lower 48 just won't let folks get wood much drier than 17% no matter how many years they wait. We do have a BK executive who stops buy here often, he has said repeatedly that 22% MC is fine, and he will be the one calling you back if you are running 22% MC and aren't happy. When I can get my fuel under 17%MC, I have a different stove. If I had a corvette, I wouldn't put 85 octane in it.
5800. I think ( my google-fu is not with me tonight) a 20Mbtu cord of ready to go wood would replace about 5800 kwh.
Given I am paying 27 cents for a kwh up here, almost double the national average; if my primary was electric, a cord of wood at 20Mbtu would be "worth" $1566 off my electric bill.
OP is probably paying more like 10-15 cents for a kwh, so more likely a cord of seasoned wood replace $580 to $870 off his/her electric bill.
At three cords a year he could possibly save enough to pay off a BK 30 and a pro installed chimney in three years, give or take. Plus the toy budget, as @Ashful adroitly mentioned.
@SD Golden , just about all of us here to actually save money buy green wood and season it ourselves. To really really save big bucks, you got to buy tools and invest time. I can buy standing timber in the state forest for $10/ cord, but I have to go cut it and haul it home. I can get green logs delivered to my driveway around $150-175/ cord. I can get green splits delivered to my driveways for about $225/ cord. I can buy "seasoned" wood all day, but i can't seem to get it delivered at any price.
And that seems to be the rule on this planet. We have a few folks from Australia and New Zealand who keep the website active in May, June and July, and a few more from Europe, I don't know of anyone who can buy seasoned ready to burn cord wood, and buy it dependably year after year, and get it any cheaper than whatever other fuel they could be using to heat their home. If you got all three of those, you should buy lottery tickets. The rest of us are buying green wood, or collecting it by whatever means, and seasoning down to dry ourselves.
I have a different skin on my BK30 box, an Ashford 30 instead of a Sirocco 30, but mine really shines with fuel at 12-16% MC. 11%MC and under is kind of exciting. 17-20% is OK-fine, a lot of users here running that - many climates in the lower 48 just won't let folks get wood much drier than 17% no matter how many years they wait. We do have a BK executive who stops buy here often, he has said repeatedly that 22% MC is fine, and he will be the one calling you back if you are running 22% MC and aren't happy. When I can get my fuel under 17%MC, I have a different stove. If I had a corvette, I wouldn't put 85 octane in it.
Jan Pijpelink
Minister of Fire
We hate to pay for gas even though it is not that expensive here. We try to get our wood cheap or scrounge it. We run 2 wood stoves 24/7 December-March. Our 2 stoves keep our home (2400 sqf) toasty. During the burning season, our furnace starts up for just 1 hour early in the morning. Savings? Sure, if you can get your wood free or very cheap.
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Poindexter
Minister of Fire
I got one of these as a door prize at one or another function:
https://www.scribd.com/document/240722991/Fuel-Value-Calculator-by-USDA
If the OP would care to post his price per kwh i can spin the wheel to see/share the break even price for a bushel of fuel corn. It's 314k BTU per bushel...
Highbeam
Minister of Fire
You assume the 100% electric furnace but the op has heat pumps with a resistance heat backup. Some of these heat pumps have very high efficiencies, like 4-500%.
Ashful
Minister of Fire
Link takes me to an article about Scribd’s new partially-unlimited audiobook plan. Good info, for sure, but I suspect it has nothing to do with the rest of your post.
The heat pump efficiency is a big unknown in any calculation. If it is a newer unit with variable speed compressor if may have good low temp performance. I am not a standard heat pump pro but will defer to others. The prime payback is wood stove versus electric furnace which in theory only runs at low temps. It them comes down to how much is the cost for a safe wood stove installation?.
An observation with respect to flood wood. The typical assumption is that unless wood is cut and split its not going to be dry. It takes a long time for wood to dry when its not cut. Most of the moisture goes out the cut ends and split faces, with far less coming out the outer bark.
An observation with respect to flood wood. The typical assumption is that unless wood is cut and split its not going to be dry. It takes a long time for wood to dry when its not cut. Most of the moisture goes out the cut ends and split faces, with far less coming out the outer bark.
bfitz3
Feeling the Heat
My calculation was pretty simple... 1000+ gallons propane per year. $2/gallon average. Settings on the thermostat of 65 when here/awake, 52 otherwise. Cost, $2000ish per year in a cool house. New expenses... doing something with the trees that fall in my woods and I would clean up anyway, a few gallons of gas/diesel, and time spent in the woods or exercising in a new way. I made my money back in three years and am now paying myself decent $/h while living in a much warmer house, never waking up at 3 am in January when the furnace kicks in, massively decreasing my carbon footprint, and maybe most importantly, not caring nearly as much if the power goes out.
At the end of the day, yeah, I save some cash, but really it’s about an improved lifestyle.
At the end of the day, yeah, I save some cash, but really it’s about an improved lifestyle.
Have you considered the Princess?I cant speak on the Sirocco 30 but I sure can when it comes to the Princess...you can run the Princess 24/7 in that 2400 sq. ft. and realize some serious savings...I heat 2100 sq. ft of leaky house with no problems...I do not buy wood. I have no other heat source...yet. I will eventually for back up.I currently load twice a day around my work schedule...never have to worry about a cold stove..regardless of how cold it gets here...
xman23
Minister of Fire
Good insulation and windows, you should be able to heat the house with the stove no matter how cold it is. Stove location has a lot to do with how even the heat is. So the savings on the current heating cost comes down to how much you want to run the stove. For many here it's there only heat. Most here consider this a hobby, exercise that has it's benefits. Not the cost of the stove, wood and there time.
I pay around 13 cents per kwh here. The stove would have to he located on one end of the house vs. centrally located due to layout, but I thought I would run the HVAC fan on circulate to help spread the heat. One other thing, any input on the outside air intake for the stove? Considering how sealed up our house is, I was drawn to it and like the idea of not pulling cold outside air in elsewhere to the house to facilitate the draft. The dealer tried to talk me out of it, but never gave a reason why.
Running the hvac fan will eat up some of the cost savings, especially if the duct runs are long. If the ducts are leaky, poorly insulated or running through an unheated space then heat can actually be lost in the system. Is there a basement in the house and if yes, is it heated?
If the house is tightly sealed the stove should have an OAK. Otherwise there is a chance that with the right circumstances draft may be poor or even reverse. For example, this could happen when running a kitchen exhaust fan while the clothes dryer is running and then someone turns on a bath fan.
If the house is tightly sealed the stove should have an OAK. Otherwise there is a chance that with the right circumstances draft may be poor or even reverse. For example, this could happen when running a kitchen exhaust fan while the clothes dryer is running and then someone turns on a bath fan.
You are right there is no downside to a properly installed oak. But in some cases installing one properly is next to impossible. And an improperly installed one can cause problems. But if one can be done right i agree with you completly.
What is your procedure for a stove that needs an oak but is below grade? Do you terminate the oak near the air intake of the stove, but with a gap?
Honestly we rarley have instances where an oak is necessary. But yes the few we have done that needed on and were below grade we left a seperation. If it is reasonably easy to install one properly we put them in regardless but many times it would be pretty difficult. We have also experienced problems with oaks having a vacume pulled on them due to wind and the location of the inlet. But that is pretty rare.
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