Red Oak or Black Oak?

[OhioBurner©]

Wow and just to think, a year ago I only knew there were 2 different oaks because at the lumber place sold red and white... Atleast in the woods I can pick out the 'oak' tree! lol

I'll have to start IDing some of the oaks at where I am cutting just out of curiosity. But just from memory I always see acorns like the one on the left.

 

[Adios Pantalones]

They are often pretty close. I have seen turkey, overcup, red (many subspecies get called this), black (another vague name, for the most part), chestnut oak and lots of others from the red oak family in my range. In some conventions American red, northern red and others are separate. I can't remember which one has the giant leaves that we have locally as well.

I will preferentially cut most red oaks and replace with white because they are less common and generally a better food source for critters here.

 

[Adios Pantalones]

I promised pics of my Red Oaks in the back yard. Here are they are. One has the traditional Red Oak canopy and the other has a short trunk like described for black oaks, but everything else about them seems to be the same....So what do you guys think, Red or Black. Also a close up of the bark and the big red oak I just cut.....or at least I think it is Red.

Looking at those pics, I think it is possible that at least one may be scarlet oak. Scarlet oak can often look like a combo of black and red oak, often looking like a black oak in the lower third of the tree and a red oak in the upper portions. Have any pics of the leaves? That coupled with the pics you have up should show enough to really get a good Id on what kind of oaks you have there

Krex- interesting. Scarlet and black get confused a lot. I found this little description to help tell the difference: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quercus_coccinea

 

[Wood Duck]

My brother-in-law says that if the oak tree holds its' leaves through the winter it is a black oak.. Red oak drops its' leaves.. Anyone ever hear that? My oaks hold most of their dead leaves even in the strongest wind and drop them in the spring when the new leaf buds form..

Ray

Of the two, I have mostly Black Oak in my yard, but the one small tree that holds its leaves is one of the two Red Oaks.

 

[tfdchief]

oh yeah, and the acorns - do you have acorns - very very different.

here, I found some pictures I took a few years ago, this should help.

first picture will be northern red oak

second picture will be bark of northern red oak further up on the tree

third picture will be black oak

fourth picture will be a comparison of acorns and twigs of northern red and black oaks with the red on the left and black on the right.

Flint, thanks. Did you look at the picture of the 2 trees and bark in this thread? I think they definitely show the ski slope markings. The one tree has a funny trunk and branches but otherwise they are exactly the same. I think they are red oaks. Here are pics of the leave, acorn and buds....of course it is winter so not good shape and I had to put a nut and cup together.... I couldn't find any that were in tack. Steve

 

[krex1010]

Acorns and leaves look like northern red oak to me

 

[tfdchief]

Acorns and leaves look like northern red oak to me

krex1010, Both trees have the same as these. Only difference is the shape, structure of the one tree with the short trunk and all branches out from there.

 

[GlennMike]

My vote is for black

 

[Adios Pantalones]

Between the 2- those acorns are not from black oak. They look closer to red to me. Leaves and bark look like red.

It looks like it, smells like it and tastes like it. Sure glad I didn't step in it

 

[krex1010]

Yeah the top husk on black oak acorns comes about halfway down the nut, on those it is a larger acorn and the husk is kinda square and only covers the top of the nut, that indicates northern red oak pretty clearly to me, especially when coupled with the number of lobes on the leaves, all points to Quercus rubra.

 

[tfdchief]

My vote is for black

I think you are by yourself.

 

[NH_Wood]

I'll add one more character for 3 of the species mentioned - n. red, scarlet, and black. If you have access to mature leaves in the summer: n. red oak = essentially hairless leaves, scarlet = 'hairy armpits' (sorry!) - meaning small tufts of reddish 'hairs' (very shorty) in the 'crotch' of where lateral veins meet the main midrib of the leaf, black = very hairy - often dense mats of reddish 'hair' covering much of the leaf blade. It is often best to look underneath the leaf for these characters. Cheers!

 

[GlennMike]

yeah, I think I I.D'd the wrong picture

My vote is for black

I think you are by yourself.

 

[FLINT]

Flint, thanks. Did you look at the picture of the 2 trees and bark in this thread? I think they definitely show the ski slope markings. The one tree has a funny trunk and branches but otherwise they are exactly the same. I think they are red oaks. Here are pics of the leave, acorn and buds....of course it is winter so not good shape and I had to put a nut and cup together.... I couldn't find any that were in tack. Steve

Steve,

based on the leaves and acorn pictures you posted, you definitely have northern red oak - Quercus rubra. no doubt.


Oak IDs are fun

 

[jlove1974]

Ah the fun of Oak tree ID. Nobody mentioned this little tidbit:

Many red oaks will HYBRIDIZE! lol

I have a hybrid southern red x willow oak in my front yard. Has the somewhat familiar southern red oak leaf pattern but more rounded, tighter pattern on the bark, smallish acorns, and numerous branches like a willow oak. LOL

 

[FLINT]

Ah the fun of Oak tree ID. Nobody mentioned this little tidbit:

Many red oaks will HYBRIDIZE! lol

I have a hybrid southern red x willow oak in my front yard. Has the somewhat familiar southern red oak leaf pattern but more rounded, tighter pattern on the bark, smallish acorns, and numerous branches like a willow oak. LOL

Actually, someone did mention this earlier in the thread. Yes, they will, but really, I think that actual hybrids are very rare. The vast majority of times, individual trees can be IDed to species. Oaks are notoriously variable - especially in leaf shape, which leads many people to throw up their hands and start making claims about hybrids - but if you look at all of the characteristics - especially buds and acorns which tend to be way less variable than leaves and bark - you can almost always get a species ID.

I'm not saying that I don't believe that you have a hybrid in your yard, I'm just saying that I never assume hybrid going in to an ID.

also, my parents have both southern red oak and willow oak on their property and the acorns are very similar. Well, since we are at it, here are some pictures

first one is southern red oak leaves with buds
second one is southern red oak acorn
third one is willow oak buds
fourth one is willow oak acorn

ok, now I'm going home and starting Christmas break - happy holidays all !

 

[Wood Duck]

I think based on the bark those two trees look like Northern Red Oak. I think the rounds at the base of the Northern Red Oak are Black Locust.

 

[modo]

Ah the fun of Oak tree ID. Nobody mentioned this little tidbit:

Many red oaks will HYBRIDIZE! lol

I have a hybrid southern red x willow oak in my front yard. Has the somewhat familiar southern red oak leaf pattern but more rounded, tighter pattern on the bark, smallish acorns, and numerous branches like a willow oak. LOL

O.k. since we're on this, are willow oak and shingle oak the same species, just called different in different regions?

 

[jlove1974]

In a word: No. It's a different species of Quercus, also referred to as Laurel Oak

 

[krex1010]

Willow oak and shingle are two different species , quercus imbricaria (shingle oak) and quercus phellos (willow oak).

 

[tfdchief]

I think based on the bark those two trees look like Northern Red Oak. I think the rounds at the base of the Northern Red Oak are Black Locust.

Wood Duck, Thanks. Actually those rounds are what got me going in the first place. They are from 2 giant Red Oaks. They do look a little like black locust in the picture, deceiving color and extremely furrowed bark, but trust me, if you could see them in person you would know the wood, first is oak - the distinctive grain, and second the smell...yuk, and I had leaves and acorns because it blew down in a storm. I knew it was a red or black like the ones in my back yard....thus the thread. I studied the taxonomy of trees in college and just didn't remember the difference between the two. It is all coming back now and as others here, I am now sure mine are Northern Red Oak. Its just that seldom have I seen a black oak around here, even though their range is virtually the same. Thanks again, Steve

 

[tfdchief]

Great discussion of information here. All of this info is of course on the Internet only a google away or if as in my case, just go to my book shelf and look it up in any number of my old college tree ID books. Point is, I think it really helps to have a discussion about all the information....its helps to sort it out. Thanks to all of you...hope you enjoyed it as much as I have. I will be looking fore black oaks... :coolsmile:

 

[Cedrusdeodara]

We have a nursery and raise both Q. velutina (Black oak) and Q. rubra (Northern Red oak) from seed. To me, an easy distinction between the two species can be seen in their acorns. Northern Red oak have large, somewhat "boxy" looking acorns with a small cap that only covers 1/4 of the seed or less. The color of Northern red acorns is also a well defined dark brown/red at the top and bottom with a grey area in the middle. The caps on Norther Red are relatively small compared to the size of the acorn and they are easy to remove. Q. velutina (Black Oak) has smaller acorns, they are more rounded and not as "boxy" as the northern reds. The cap on Black Oak covers more of the acorn, often as far as half way, and the caps can be somewhat difficult to remove. Black Oak acorns often have black striations/lines midway along the seed too.