Replacing my F602 after 3 weeks - getting ripped off?

[Ridgewood]

Hey guys - three weeks ago I had an F602 installed in my sunroom. The place I bought it from told me it would heat it without any issues. It didn't.

I called the place I bought it from and they said they would take it back with a 25% restocking fee, and apply it to my next stove, the Jotul F400. However they seem to be charging me an arm and a leg for the installation and stove removal; and I'm not sure if I'm getting ripped off or not:

 

[begreen]

That's a really pricey swap out. Is there something added like a new hearth pad? Are you sure the Castine is going to be adequate? Sunrooms can leak a lot of heat.

 

[Ridgewood]

That's a really pricey swap out. Is there something added like a new hearth pad? Are you sure the Castine is going to be adequate? Sunrooms can leak a lot of heat.

Nothing new added, and they said they can use the same flue. The F602 will heat up the room, but I have to restock it about every 2/3 hours to keep it hot in the room. In addition, because its small, I have to cut the logs in half to fit, or use wood which has been broken up into large kindling.

I've attached our blueprints, as well as photos - its 3 sides of glass. I'd hate to have this installed and still deal with issues.

 

[begreen]

That's all glass, it's not going to hold heat well. 2-3 hr reloads are not bad for this stove. That said, you can use a larger stove without consequence. Worst case scenario open the sunroom to the house. My only concern is that the Castine may not perform to great with that chimney. The Castine likes a good strong draft and at least a 16' ft flue system. The flue system doesn't look much taller than 13'. Also, did they put a brace on the chimney pipe? It needs one.

The prices they are asking are ridiculous for an easy swap out like this IMO. And you should be able to sell the 602 for at least twice what they are offering. I don't understand why they would be charging $300 to remove a stove when they are installing another, especially considering it is only a few weeks old and bought from the same store. Consider hiring a certified chimney sweep to do the change out instead and think about other stove options that may work better with a short flue system.

 

[Ridgewood]

You're right on the 13' - Its 6 on the outside and 5 on the inside. Makes me think that its not worth it - especially if the flue wasn't be tall enough.

 

[begreen]

You're right on the 13' - Its 6 on the outside and 5 on the inside. Makes me think that its not worth it - especially if the flue wasn't be tall enough.

Did they put a brace on the outdoor section of the chimney? It must have one at the 5' level.

 

[peakbagger]

IMO, there are some big expectations/misunderstandings on the OPs side of this transaction and the dealer is just padding their estimate to make a second profit on the job. Unless its in writing as for the suitability for the intended purpose, the dealer is probably not legally liable to do anything. The dealer has already made one profit and if the OP wants to give him another one he will take it and hope the OP goes away. There really is not enough details on what sort of guarantee was made on the suitability of the stove. A 602 is a radiant space heater designed to heat a space as long as its fed wood. It does sound like it can heat the space, its just that the OP is unhappy that he is not getting long enough burns. If the OP is trying to heat this space 24/7 its a fools errand.

In my opinion the proposed replacement is still not going to deal with the fundamental problem that the sunroom has incredibly high heat loss. Except that it has a ceiling, its worse than heating a garage due to all that glass. My guess without running calculations is that the heating loss out of this space will probably exceed the rest of the house. There are three types of heat loss, convective, conductive and radiant and this installation flunks on all three. its a three season sunroom at best and trying to heat it year round or use it for supplemental heat to the rest of the house is a fools errand. Looking at the photos, the sunroom appears to be an older installation possibly 1970s when energy efficiency was not an issue. I wonder if there is even insulation in the roof?. If the sliders are double pane, the R value at best is probably in the 3 to 4 range, if they are single pane at best R 1. They look to be older sliders so the infiltration rate is quite high. I dont see any thermal shades so when the outdoor temps are lower than the indoors the radiant loss and convective loss is sky high out of glass and expect the infiltration loss is also significant. Even if a stove is large enough to effectively heat the space, the amount of wood its going to need will be a lot, several cords per season and the reality is its just going to be sucking in so much air that its going to be pulling heat from the rest of the house. Its looks like a concrete slab floor probably with no edge insulation or insulation underneath so its going to be sucking heat out into the ground continuously and will take hours to warm up. Barring major renovations and substantially reducing the amount of exposed glass in the space to reduce the heating load I do not expect any wood stove is going to meet the OPs expectations. In my opinion keep the 602 and realize the space is never going to be year round space unless its torn down and a energy efficient structure is built in its place with far less glass. At best if its needed in cold weather plan on firing the stove while its needed and let the space cool down until the next time its needed.

As for the complaint that the wood will not fit the stove, that is the OP's fault unless the dealer gave him bad information on the size of the firebox relative to his wood supply. There is no standard length of firewood and unless the OP bought the wood from the stove dealer its the OPs responsibility to make sure the wood he buys or cuts fits the woodstove he has.

Sorry to blow up your bubble. There have been many similar posts in the past on hearth by folks with unrealistic expectations of heating similar spaces and they either go away since they didnt get the answer they were wishing for or they start spending money to modify the space. About the only options with the existing space are go with custom insulated floor to ceiling drapes to cover all the glass or put in double cellular blinds preferably with foil radiant layers (so called light blocking blinds) with side tracks. Either one cuts the radiant and convective loss signicantly but can be opened to let in the sun. There are lower budget options used in greenhouses and metal buildings but they are not designed to be visually attractive. If the ceiling is uninsulated it could be. The slab is going to be an issue unless the floor is raised by putting down a couple of inches of foam on top of the existing one with a new flooring on top of it. One concern with the roof is frequently the roof structure is way undersized for snow load on these sunrooms. The assumption was sun or heat from the house would warm up the space and hopefully melt the snow off before the roof collapses under a heavy snow fall.

 

[Ludlow]

Just looking at your pics I would never buy such a small stove for that space. The dealer should have known better. If they were any kind of people they would take it back and give you a full credit toward a bigger stove. They probably arent and obviously wont. Shame. Maybe sell it on Craigslist.

 

[Mech e]

There are three types of heat loss, convective, conductive and radiant and this installation flunks on all three.

Glass is almost opaque to thermal radiation. The problem here is convection and conduction.

 

[Sawset]

Glass is almost opaque to thermal radiation.

You mean the sun streaming in (or stove radiation streaming out) has no effect?

 

[Mech e]

You mean the sun streaming in (or stove radiation streaming out) has no effect?

Stove radiation (IR band) streaming out does not go through glass.

 

[Bad LP]

Stove radiation (IR band) streaming out does not go through glass.

Ya but he might as well open the windows.

 

[peakbagger]

I guess its time for definitions. I hold up my bare arm a few feet away from a glass window on a cold clear night. I am far enough away that I am not affected by convective flow. The outside surface of the glass is warmer than the sky so it radiates heat out to space. Heat conducts thru the glass from inside to outside as it colder on the outside than the inside so the interior surface of the glass is now colder than the interior. My arm is warmer than the interior of the glass so it radiates heat from my arm to the interior surface of the glass. So for non technical discussion I am saying my arm is being affected by radiation as my arm feels cold as it faces the glass . Now extend that discussion to a wood stove, the glass is cold the stove is warm, the stove is going to try to heat that interior surface of that glass up, the glass is going conduct some heat to the outdoors as its colder outside and meanwhile convective floor is going to start up where warm air from the room is going to contact the cold glass and also conduct heat to the outdoors, its get denser as its cooler and then it will start flowing down the window. It hits the floor then it draws back into the room past a cold floor making for cold feet and then it eventually makes it back to the stove. For purposes of the discussion even though convection and conduction is in the process the shorthand is the stove is radiating heat to the outdoors and that means the OP needs to deal with that process whatever its called.

 

[ratsrepus]

screw the F400, get a big honker. If your stuck on Jotul the F600 will do it, but its gonna be a wood hog. I personally would go with and big steel radiant heater like the BK princess or the one that's called steel something or other

Ideal steel, just thought of it

 

[bholler]

screw the F400, get a big honker. If your stuck on Jotul the F600 will do it, but its gonna be a wood hog. I personally would go with and big steel radiant heater like the BK princess or the one that's called steel something or other

Why a princess which is not a high but stove in a space with lots of heat loss? Plus by his stove choices I assume aesthetics are a concern which means the princess and ideal steel are out

 

[Mech e]

I guess its time for definitions. I hold up my bare arm a few feet away from a glass window on a cold clear night. I am far enough away that I am not affected by convective flow. The outside surface of the glass is warmer than the sky so it radiates heat out to space. Heat conducts thru the glass from inside to outside as it colder on the outside than the inside so the interior surface of the glass is now colder than the interior. My arm is warmer than the interior of the glass so it radiates heat from my arm to the interior surface of the glass. So for non technical discussion I am saying my arm is being affected by radiation as my arm feels cold as it faces the glass . Now extend that discussion to a wood stove, the glass is cold the stove is warm, the stove is going to try to heat that interior surface of that glass up, the glass is going conduct some heat to the outdoors as its colder outside and meanwhile convective floor is going to start up where warm air from the room is going to contact the cold glass and also conduct heat to the outdoors, its get denser as its cooler and then it will start flowing down the window. It hits the floor then it draws back into the room past a cold floor making for cold feet and then it eventually makes it back to the stove. For purposes of the discussion even though convection and conduction is in the process the shorthand is the stove is radiating heat to the outdoors and that means the OP needs to deal with that process whatever its called.

Yep, we are on the same page. I was just pointing out in my post was that radiant thermal energy does not pass "through" glass. This is why the inside of your car gets so dang hot sitting in the sun. If you have an infrared thermometer, aim it at your stove and then put a piece of glass between the thermometer and the stove. The thermometer will not be able to "see" the IR energy coming off the stove.

The root problem here of course is the conductivity of glass. It is a (relatively) poor thermal insulator and on top of that not very thick. This problem, as you pointed out, exacerbates the transfer of heat to the surface of the glass.

 

[jetsam]

I would personally abandon hope of heating that space with a tiny stove. Most of what any stove produces will be heating the outdoors anyway. Both of the stoves the dealer is selling you are way too small for that job.

Some people have reported a big improvement in their stoves after adding thermal curtains to the sunroom windows.

If I was you, I'd either start insulating, buy a monster stove, or accept that the stove's job in that context is to warm up the person sitting next to it but not to heat the room.

A monster stove may cook the person sitting by it and still fail to heat that room, so consider that option with caution.

 

[Ridgewood]

Wow guys - this was great amount of information. So in the end decided to go with the F400. As bholler mentioned, aesthetics is an important consideration, and the 400 fits the room best.

We have a ceiling fan in the room, so running it backwards on low should help; but I'm accepting that I'm not going to heat the room as if it was in the house with insulated walls. That being said - it will warm up better (even slightly) than the 602, and now I can use the standard log size that my 550 does. This in itself will be a huge convenience as I was currently cutting the standard size in half using a miter saw.

As far as the price - after negotiating with the dealer, I got $600 knocked off - which in the end was realistically the best I could do, especially as there are no other Jotul dealers around.

Thanks again for the great info - and so glad I found this community!

 

[mellow]

Did you get smoke spillage on the 602 when you opened the door? Also did they install a brace on the top section?

 

[moresnow]

Wow guys - this was great amount of information. So in the end decided to go with the F400. As bholler mentioned, aesthetics is an important consideration, and the 400 fits the room best.

We have a ceiling fan in the room, so running it backwards on low should help; but I'm accepting that I'm not going to heat the room as if it was in the house with insulated walls. That being said - it will warm up better (even slightly) than the 602, and now I can use the standard log size that my 550 does. This in itself will be a huge convenience as I was currently cutting the standard size in half using a miter saw.

As far as the price - after negotiating with the dealer, I got $600 knocked off - which in the end was realistically the best I could do, especially as there are no other Jotul dealers around.

Thanks again for the great info - and so glad I found this community!

Performance update request when you are up and running. Curious. Thanks

 

[begreen]

Performance update request when you are up and running. Curious. Thanks

Yes, I am concerned that the F400 will not burn optimally without adding more chimney.

 

[Ashful]

The dynamics of heating that space are much like my house, in that when the stove goes out the room gets cold almost immediately. I’m not sure you need a ton of firepower to warm that space, but you do need consistent long burn times, as the room temperature will drop quickly once the stove goes out. You seem to be proving that, your F602 can heat the space, but you’re having to load it every 2-3 hours.

I’m heating a space where the interior walls stay 53F all day every day, nearly year-round. If a stove is going, we’re okay. But there’s no hope of the space staying warm even 60 minutes after stove output drops below a certain threshold, our room temperature heads quickly toward 53F.

Also, like me, a radiant stove is a poor choice for your space. Radiant stoves work by heating the high-mass objects within line-of-sight view of the stove. Most of the radiation you’re generating from your stove is simply passing thru the glass to your back yard, there’s no high-mass interior objects for that stove to heat. I have the same problem, any radiation my stove provides gets soaked up by our exterior stone walls, and radiated out to the neighborhood.

I found the key for me was a large convective stove that can provide long burn times, capable of low output levels, and self-adjust the air inlet to maintain more constant output over the burn cycle.

 

[jetsam]

The dynamics of heating that space are much like my house, in that when the stove goes out the room gets cold almost immediately. I’m not sure you need a ton of firepower to warm that space, but you do need consistent long burn times, as the room temperature will drop quickly once the stove goes out. You seem to be proving that, your F602 can heat the space, but you’re having to load it every 2-3 hours.

I’m heating a space where the interior walls stay 53F all day every day, nearly year-round. If a stove is going, we’re okay. But there’s no hope of the space staying warm even 60 minutes after stove output drops below a certain threshold, our room temperature heads quickly toward 53F.

Also, like me, a radiant stove is a poor choice for your space. Radiant stoves work by heating the high-mass objects within line-of-sight view of the stove. Most of the radiation you’re generating from your stove is simply passing thru the glass to your back yard, there’s no high-mass interior objects for that stove to heat. I have the same problem, any radiation my stove provides gets soaked up by our exterior stone walls, and radiated out to the neighborhood.

I found the key for me was a large convective stove that can provide long burn times, capable of low output levels, and self-adjust the air inlet to maintain more constant output over the burn cycle.

Today's Ashful Update, in which we learn that heating a sunroom is actually surprisingly similar to heating a haunted castle.

 

[begreen]

A 2-3 hr reload cycle is typical with the F602 when it is being pushed for heat. That will go up to 4-5hrs with the F400. The big difference with the Castine is that in addition to more heat and larger split length, it will provide a more fireplace like experience with a much larger fire view. It even has a screen accessory if a more fireplace like experience is desired, which I suspect is what the OP wants. There is a very good chance however that the stove will need another 3' of flue added (and braced) for the stove to achieve good secondary combustion.

 

[Ridgewood]

First impressions - LOVE not having to keep refilling it with small logs. Having the ability to load it up with actual sized (16”) logs was fantastic! It heated the room fast and hot - and lasted about 4 hours on low vent with 3 medium sized logs in it and an outside temperature of about 43 and rainy. I’ll have a detailed analysis later tonight when I measure the time, weather and usage.