Smell won't go away on new stove

[Gr8ftblr]

I'm installing the Quad Disco II (sounds like a pop song). We are installing a hearth that is only a few inches tall b/c of the aesthetics you mentioned about it being taller that most stoves.
More than anything, I hope your new stove brings you no grief or strange smells!

 

[mincus]

Well, finally an update.

There's some good news and a large heap of bad news.

First, the good. A few days ago, they installed our brand new stove. Since the 3100 is no longer in production, they gave us the Explorer II. It is a bit wider, and so accommodate a longer log, which we like.

But, now for the bad news: the smell IS STILL THERE. Yeah, I know. I'm honestly blown away. I have no idea anymore.

I have a theory that I'd like to get your ideas on: I am leaning towards the smell being some of the emissions getting back into the house. I am thinking there may be a draft or pipe issue. I have several reasons for thinking that:

1. I mentioned near the beginning of this whole thing that I was having some chest pains. I didn’t speak much more of it because I couldn’t completely convince myself it was related to this. However, I am 32 years old and have never had chest pains to that point. In December, I ended up going to the ER one night because of it. This was after a straight week of burning the stove. The chest pains got progressively better as I burned the stove less and less. I haven’t burned the stove for a couple of months, and they were totally gone. I burned the new stove on Friday night. The next morning and this morning I woke up with minor chest pains.
2. The morning after burning the stove, myself and my two children woke up with pretty severe allergy like symptoms. My daughter and I have allergies, but this was worse than we’ve had all spring. My wife and I sometimes get minor headaches, but only when burning the stove.
3. When the installers took apart the stove pipe in order to put the new stove on, I noticed a couple of things. I took this picture in the horizontal section just before a turn that goes into the wall. I noticed that the two pieces don’t line up at all (in the picture, on the left side of the pipe). This is a double wall pipe, so it’s the inner wall that doesn’t line up. I also noticed (but didn’t get a picture) that the outer wall of the pipe had ash looking stuff in it. Similar to (although not quite as much as) what is in the inner wall of the pipe. I’m assuming I shouldn’t see anything in the outer wall??
   

4. The smell on the new stove is the same as the old stove, a sweet sort of smell (sorry, no idea how else to describe it). It seems to originate from right around the pipe. Now, on this stove, the hottest part is the part right around where the flu exits the stove, so that could be the reason. Or it could be related to the pipe. I smelled it strongest when I put my nose right around the bottom of the pipe there.


Here’s my crazy theory: is it at all possible that some of the emissions are getting back into the house. Is it possible that it’s a small amount so it doesn’t set off our CO detectors? We have three of them in the house. Is it possible that most of the emissions are going up and out like they’re supposed to, but some is actually flowing backwards on the outer shell of the double walled pipe? I know this sounds crazy, but I just don’t see another option.

If that’s not possible, I have no idea what’s going on. Clearly I'm not crazy or making it up since the president of the company came to my house, agreed the smell wasn't normal, and went through the hassle of getting the stove replaced. I honestly don’t know what to do at this point. But frankly, I’m done. I’m almost thinking it doesn’t matter what the reason is. It’s not what I was sold on (I asked two different associates before buying the stove if there’s ever any smell from them. Both of them told me no, except for the occasional smell of wood smoke if you open the door too fast. Certainly neither of them said anything that our entire house would smell like this everytime, the entire time we burn). The benefit of a wood stove isn’t anything compared to the horrible gut feeling I have that I’m poisoning myself and my family. I just can’t get over that idea in my head. The new stove smelling the same only solidifies what I’ve believed in the back of my mind for a while.

To say I'm upset, angry, etc is probably understating it. I have wanted a stove for years, and it's just not working out. I have put countless hours and well over a thousand dollars into just getting the area prepped for the stove (not to mention the thousands I’ve paid for the stove, pipe, install, etc). I took out two old fireplaces, a 23 foot tall masonry chimney, built a new wall, all the interior work, etc etc. Heck, we bought a specific couch for the room so it wasn’t too close to the stove. The whole thing was no short and easy feat and I'm left with this.

I’m at a loss. Any thoughts or advice?

Thanks all for the help.

 

[begreen]

It could be the horizontal run is too long or not pitched correctly. The horizontal section should be pitched at least 1/4" per ft, upward toward the chimney. More is better. I'd consider getting rid of the 90º elbow and replacing it with two 45º elbows, with a short transition between them. This will mean shortening the vertical pipe coming off of the stove by 6-12" and the horiz. section correspondingly. The less horizontal pipe the better.

 

[jetsam]

Here's an idea- warm up the flue with a small load, then burn like 20 sticks of incense at once in the stove. See if you can smell it in the house. Get a ladder and sniff the flue pipe all along its length.

If you don't find your smell after that, it may not be coming from the stove or flue pipe.

Maybe your plumbing air intake is picking up some stove exhaust, or it's getting recirculated into your attic and through the walls. (Is there a white PVC pipe penetrating the roof by the flue?)

 

[Sully1515]

Mincus,
My heart goes out to you with the effort you put into having your wood stove. You worked very hard to get things going. I'm hoping that the next round, everything will be taken care of. Please keep us updated on your progress.

 

[Catfish Hunter]

Any updates? This sounds like quite the battle. Has most of your double wall pipe lost its new looking sheen? I'd be especially interested in the adjustable lengths.


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[Heftiger]

I’d also be interested in an update.

Reading through the entire thread it seems like maybe a draft issue. It’s possible the poor draft was causing smoke to leak out some areas in the stove. A new stove, maybe “tighter”?, and you’re smelling the smoke leak from somewhere else.

With good draft, even if there were some “leaky spots” you shouldn’t have any spillage. There was a time where my inside pipe didn’t get set right on the stove after a cleaning. I didn’t notice for a couple weeks until I got a roaring fire and could see light coming through. But I never got a smell.


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[jetsam]

Back on stove #1, I was guessing either a flue leak in a hidden spot or that the house was pulling in outside air near the flue exit, maybe even through a large hole like a gable vent, or maybe even something wacky like a disconnected plumbing air intake. (Gable vent troubleshooting: Is your smell stronger in the attic?)

If it was me, I'd first run a camera all the way through the flue, and then add a 5' section of 6" hvac duct to the top of the flue and burn it with the taller stack on a cool day.

I am betting you'd either see the problem or it would be suddenly gone, unless 1) The top of the flue was below the ridgeline, or 2) The house is in a valley, or 3) it was being burned on a warm day.

 

[Sodbuster]

Do you know of anyone with a "sniffer" it should be able to detect any leaks. You've gotten some good advice, please let us know what you find. It seems to me if it were the chimney exhaust was coming back into the house, it should smell like wood smoke.

 

[mincus]

Hi all,

I'm really sorry about the lack of updates. I've been meaning to write one for a couple months and never got around to it. I thoroughly appreciate all of your advice and time.

Back in July, they came back out to take a look. They added an outside air kit, a two foot section of vertical pipe outside, and changed the inside pipe to what you see here:


After they replaced the stove, and it was still making the smell, I had a strong suspicion it was a draft issue. The owner of the store told me these three things was all he could think to do and if it doesn't work, he'll take the entire thing out and give me my money back. I REALLY don't want to go that route since I've wanted a wood stove for many many years and I have put tons of money (besides the cost of the stove) and time into the project to just put the stove in (took out two fireplaces, a 23 foot chimney, built a new wall, pedestal, etc).

Of course I couldn't fire it up in the middle of summer. Tonight was a reasonably cool night so I started a fire. The smell came back stronger and faster than it did before. My initial thought was that it was burning off dust from the summer, but as the fire continues to go and my house (literally) reaks of the smell throughout both stories, I just don't think that's it. My kids and wife are currently huddled in the master bedroom with the door closed and I have all the other windows open with a fan to pull the smell out. It's not making much of a difference. I got a headache fairly soon after starting the fire and my son can't stop coughing. I honestly feel like I'm poisoning my family just to keep this stove. I know that might seem like a bit of an exagerration, but when my entire house smells as bad and strong as it does within less than an hour of starting up the stove, I just don't know what else to think.

I went outside to where the outside air kit brings in air. There is almost zero air being pulled in there. I could maaaaybe feel a tiny bit. I put a tissue up to the hole and the draft wasn't even strong enough to hold up the tissue. I'm not sure if this is normal or not.

I'm incredibly frustrated and quickly realizing I won't have a wood stove much longer. And I'll be left with two holes in the wall, an oddly placed pedestal, and lots of wasted money.

I am interested in your take on the following video. I shined a flashlight along the surface of the stove and saw what appears to be smoke coming off of the top. I have no idea if this relates to the smell or not since previously it always seemed like the smell was coming from where the pipe meets the back of the stove. Is this normal for the first burn of the year? This was after the fire was already roaring for a bit under a couple hours.



Anyone have any thoughts? Again, sorry about the delay.

 

[Marshy]

Looks like when fresh paint cures on the stove.

My advice before you throw in the towel is tell the wife to take the kids shopping and stoke that stove full of wood and burn it on high for two or three loads. Just full tilt burning. Open the house up and get fans going. The stove and chimney pipe need to cure. It stinks and smokes when it curing.

 

[mincus]

Yeah, that's my plan. The problem is the stove was cured last spring/summer. They burned it a ton at really high temps at the shop before they installed. So, at this point, the only thing coming off the top should maybe be a bit of dust. The other thing is that the smell is the same as it was last year when they initially installed it. So, I do think the burning off dust may have contributed to the initial smell tonight (it smelled far sooner in the burn that in normally did), but now the ongoing smell is still there and the same as in previous years.

 

[Marshy]

Maybe they told you they cured the paint at the shop but who knows if they really did or not. Also, maybe this fire was a tad hotter..? I'm not familiar with your type of stove to say there's possibly a leak but I can't see any harm in having a really hot couple of fires to see if it burns off some residue or cures some more paint.

I've never heard any dealer pre curing a stove for someone... New to me.

 

[mincus]

Maybe they told you they cured the paint at the shop but who knows if they really did or not. Also, maybe this fire was a tad hotter..? I'm not familiar with your type of stove to say there's possibly a leak but I can't see any harm in having a really hot couple of fires to see if it burns off some residue or cures some more paint.

I've never heard any dealer pre curing a stove for someone... New to me.

I'm positive they pre-cured it. He said they normally never do that, but did on mine since this was the second stove they were putting in. He has every bit as much incentive to get this stove working for me as I do. He said he burned it really really hot over the course of several days.

On another note, the fire has been going for several hours now, and now I can clearly smell the "old" smell (from last year) coming off the top of the stove. I know this smell, and am nearly 100% sure it's not curing paint or burning off dust. I will likely try it again before contacting them, but I just don't see anything changing. So frustrating...

 

[Heftiger]

I agree that that’s what I saw when I cured my stove. Took a few good fires before it went away.


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[mincus]

I agree that that’s what I saw when I cured my stove. Took a few good fires before it went away.


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Ok, thanks for the info. I agree that's probably what was happening, but unfortunately I don't think it's related to the ongoing issue.

 

[beatlefan]

The top of your stove is smoking. At least part of the smell has to be coming from that.

 

[blacksmithden]

That smoke shouldn't be there. Its as simple as that. Perhaps a better statement would be, that smoke IS going to cause a stink. I just put a new Englander 30NC in my place. I did the initial burn in out in the yard (the stove was a 3 year old floor display model) and there was literally more visible smoke coming off the top of the stove than there was out of the stove pipe. I ran it pretty hot for about 6 hours iirc. I then installed it in the house. The first fire, I got that wonderful hot metal smell of it curing. The second fire was a little less. By the 4th or 5th fire, it was gone completely. I can't tell you why heating and cooling multiple times was required, but that's the way it was. One long burn didn't do it. The second time I ran it, it ran all weekend. Even after that, I still got the smell...less, but still there...on the third burn. Now, there's no smell at all.

Logic would dictate that the heat from an initial fire would burn it all off, and that would be the end of of. If not that, then a really long burn of a few days. That's just not the case. It needed to go through several heating and cooling cycles before the stink was gone completely. Something is causing that smoke, and I strongly suspect that it's still the paint cooking off. If I were you, I'd let it cool completely, and burn it again a few more times. Sorry about the grief you and the family are going through with this whole thing. Send them out on a day trip, and run it hard, and then air the house out...and then do it a few more times. Like I said before...now, there is zero smell coming off my 30NC

 

[Marshy]

The double wall pipe will smoke and cure just like the stove paint when it gets hot enough too. I cured my BK King in about two fires just running it full open. Then one day I left the bypass open a little too long and the double wall got smoking too. Basically what I realized was when I left the bypass open accidentally there were still parts of the stove that didn't get hot enough to cure until I made the bonehead mistake of leaving the bypass open. It's cured by temperature, the hotter you get it the more paint cures. Let'er rip.

 

[mincus]

I don't think it's still just burning off.... They burned several cycles at the shop, really hot, and for long periods of time, throughout an entire week. As soon as they put it in, the smell was back. If there was going to be any smell left of curing, it should not be anywhere near this strong. The first stove I had, I burned for many hundreds of hours (easily 400+). The smell never went away and never got any better. This one is shaping up to do the same thing. The smell last night (and still there somewhat tonight) is the same as the smell from July and the same from the smell from the last stove (sort of a "sweet" smell for lack of a better way to describe it). The only thing I could possibly think is that it's a draft issue.

The only two things I could possibly imagine not being ideal is:
1. There is a horizontal section of about three feet where the pipe goes out of the wall. It then goes straight up from there.
2. The top of the stove pipe is well above the roof line, BUT it's not above the second story (which is right about 10 feet away). I was told before install that this wouldn't be an issue (I asked specifically about this since I had done a lot of research, specifically about the 10/2 rule). See pics:


Is it normal for an outside air kit to suck almost no air into it? Like I mentioned last night, I could barely feel any air being pulled in and the draft wasn't even strong enough to hold up a tissue when the stove was burning like mad.

 

[blades]

pretty sure you need that exhaust above 2nd story, combined with the trees in a relative close proximity which mess with air currents and is that an attic vent i see right at the peak of the second story- that is not helping. 10/2 is only a rule of thumb, not set in stone. i am guessing that the white plastic pipe jutting up is a plumbing vent and not the air intake. Air intake (oak) needs to be such that it is lower than the stove firebox bottom preferably on the least windy side of the home. I always stick a horizontal section from pieces on the end that looks like an "S" or at minimum like a sink trap, pretty much negates any wind from creating a low pressure point that way and possibly reversing the air flow. Off gassing of paint and various other impurities in metal can take quite a few fires- generally longer on cast iron stoves than plate steel units, heck anytime you hit a new high you might experience a twinge of that scent again even several season down the road. Diagnostics - as was mentioned, a cam down the flue( when not active of course) might tell a tale as well. Dealler might have fired that stove, but the amount of off gassing in short vid is more than I have ever experienced but I have only had plate steel stoves. Cast Iron is somewhat porous in comparison to rolled plate steel surface wise so there would be a thicker deposit of paint on it.

 

[kennyp2339]

Stick you head in the attic, see if it smells up there while burning, that vent could be allowing smoke to come in.

 

[Sodbuster]

Stick you head in the attic, see if it smells up there while burning, that vent could be allowing smoke to come in.

+1 on this advice, that gable vent looks like a perfect smoke intake. It could be mixing with something in the attic causing the sweet smell. Odd thought, I've never confused wood smoke with anything else. Does your house have negative pressure? Just wondering if the smoke is getting drawn down the vent stack and escaping somewhere. Any chance you have a dry trap someplace? Kind of grasping at straws here, but it's all I can think of.

 

[blacksmithden]

The answer to your question about the fresh air intake is, it depends. The stove might be pulling in air from the room through it's joints/seams that aren't welded. I'm not familiar with your stove, so I just can't say. If there's a large positive pressure in your house, from say, a furnace fan running all the time that's pulling a lot of air in through an outside vent....you see where Im going with this. The stove might be getting all the air it needs without pulling much in through the fresh air intake. When my stove gets ripping along and full throttle, I can hear the air being pulled through the fresh air pipe I installed.

I'm still stuck on that smoke that you've got coming off the top. No matter what your air intake is doing, if the top of the stove is smoking, it's going to stink and all the fresh air piping, stove piping, good intentions and anything else you do, isn't going to help. You've got to find out what is causing / where that smoke is coming from. You figure that out, and I'm willing to bet most of your problems go away. You can't have smoke coming off the stove, and not have it smell. It's as simple as that. If it's coming right off the top of the stove, and there's no other source, then it's still curing it's paint. Run it, cool it, repeat. It can't cook off the paint forever. Here's a video of mine curing the paint out in the yard before I brought it inside. Looks kind of the same, right ? The only difference I can see is that I didn't need a flashlight to see it because I was outside in the sunlight. The next couple of burns inside, I couldn't see it, but I sure could smell it.

 

[mitchell721]

The smoke coming off the stove looks like mine did when it was curing. Took about 4 or 5 fires. And you have to increase in temp each time. Each fire when you hit a new high the smell comes back. Obviously you can't be for sure if they did that or not so I would say try it who knows. Out of curiosity what is your hearth/pedestal made out of? Just wondering if maybe a mastic or something was used that's throwing the smell out as it heats up