smoke getting into my room
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Hi again...
I think I fixed the water leaking problem - I sealed some outdoor flue / chimney connections. As soon as it starts raining again I will see if there is still water coming into my chimney. If so, it must be the flue inlet itself. (the funny turning thing at the end of my flue)
The problem of smoke leaking into my room still is not under control: the last few days it's getting worse again. Actually it seems it was ok when I used a second hand cap and after I replaced this cap with my funny cap which moves / aligns by wind direction, it seems that the problem with smoke leaking when reloading is back again.
Oudoor temperature is around +2 degrees centigrade and windspeed is 1 Bft. Not much wind, but cold weather. So I would expect draft should be ok. After starting the fire with lots of smaller wood on the top and medium sized logs at the bottom there is a strong fire, white / yellow coloured, which tells me draft must be ok. There is a strong suction of flames that bend around the baffle plate. A strong noise of moving air can be heard, also 1 meter away from the stove when sitting in my sofa.
But As soon as the first load is burned, the top of the stove has reached around 500 Fahrenheit and there are not much flames, just hot coals. So I open the door slowly, taking some time, open it a bit more, very carefully, and I put 2 medium sized logs in the firebox as quick as possible and close the door.
Air inlets are opened at 100%. The logs ignite quickly and there is a yellow / white coloured strong flame. But just a few seconds later, the room starts to smell like smoke.
This problem seems to arise during the first reload. Most of the time, after that, the second and next reloads don't produce this smoke problem. It seems this problem was gone when I used the non-moving cap.
To me this is very frustrating and unpleasant as I have doubts about how healthy this is on the long term. I think the chimney is ok - it's around 6 meters vertical length and just a straight line, except the 90 degree t-piece and the horizontal part of 45 centimeters.
I still don't trust the baffle plate which puts a lot of air resistance on the system. Maybe it is calculated and ok according to the manufacturer - but I have my doubts about this baffle plate. When looking at some youtube videos and reading the importers comments, there is a message like: this modern stove puts high demands on your chimney system. I translate this to: this stove has a very high draft resistance compared to traditional stoves and therefore you should not use horizontal flue pipes, any 90 degree bends and only the top connection rather than the rear connection.
As I have tried everything I can come up with like pre-drying my wood, testing it on MC before using it (restricing wood to < 15% MC), checking wind and outdoor temperature, getting a hot as possible fire before the first reload, checking the chimney on draft by hearing and watching the flames and air movement, the only conclusion I can come up with is his is a very critical stove which only functions well on a chimney that has above average draft.
I will contact the seller (again), to ask what to do. I'm unsatisfied with the first reaction of the seller, just like the Duch Morsoe importer and the factory in Denmark itself: they all tell me that it's the chimney / flue and it's my own fault. They are quite sure about this. But I have big doubts if they are right. I don't say I didn't make an error myself, this could very well be the case - but I just doubt it as I looked at a lot of stoves and chimneys at friends places and no one has so much problems with smoke when reloading.
If the shop won't help, which I expect - I will hire an certified chimney sweeper and installer - to inspect my chimney - as a last resort.
But to be honest, I'm very unsatisfied with this modern stove.
I will replace the current cap:
...with this one (again), as the one below didn't show smoke leaking problems when refilling:
I think I fixed the water leaking problem - I sealed some outdoor flue / chimney connections. As soon as it starts raining again I will see if there is still water coming into my chimney. If so, it must be the flue inlet itself. (the funny turning thing at the end of my flue)
The problem of smoke leaking into my room still is not under control: the last few days it's getting worse again. Actually it seems it was ok when I used a second hand cap and after I replaced this cap with my funny cap which moves / aligns by wind direction, it seems that the problem with smoke leaking when reloading is back again.
Oudoor temperature is around +2 degrees centigrade and windspeed is 1 Bft. Not much wind, but cold weather. So I would expect draft should be ok. After starting the fire with lots of smaller wood on the top and medium sized logs at the bottom there is a strong fire, white / yellow coloured, which tells me draft must be ok. There is a strong suction of flames that bend around the baffle plate. A strong noise of moving air can be heard, also 1 meter away from the stove when sitting in my sofa.
But As soon as the first load is burned, the top of the stove has reached around 500 Fahrenheit and there are not much flames, just hot coals. So I open the door slowly, taking some time, open it a bit more, very carefully, and I put 2 medium sized logs in the firebox as quick as possible and close the door.
Air inlets are opened at 100%. The logs ignite quickly and there is a yellow / white coloured strong flame. But just a few seconds later, the room starts to smell like smoke.
This problem seems to arise during the first reload. Most of the time, after that, the second and next reloads don't produce this smoke problem. It seems this problem was gone when I used the non-moving cap.
To me this is very frustrating and unpleasant as I have doubts about how healthy this is on the long term. I think the chimney is ok - it's around 6 meters vertical length and just a straight line, except the 90 degree t-piece and the horizontal part of 45 centimeters.
I still don't trust the baffle plate which puts a lot of air resistance on the system. Maybe it is calculated and ok according to the manufacturer - but I have my doubts about this baffle plate. When looking at some youtube videos and reading the importers comments, there is a message like: this modern stove puts high demands on your chimney system. I translate this to: this stove has a very high draft resistance compared to traditional stoves and therefore you should not use horizontal flue pipes, any 90 degree bends and only the top connection rather than the rear connection.
As I have tried everything I can come up with like pre-drying my wood, testing it on MC before using it (restricing wood to < 15% MC), checking wind and outdoor temperature, getting a hot as possible fire before the first reload, checking the chimney on draft by hearing and watching the flames and air movement, the only conclusion I can come up with is his is a very critical stove which only functions well on a chimney that has above average draft.
I will contact the seller (again), to ask what to do. I'm unsatisfied with the first reaction of the seller, just like the Duch Morsoe importer and the factory in Denmark itself: they all tell me that it's the chimney / flue and it's my own fault. They are quite sure about this. But I have big doubts if they are right. I don't say I didn't make an error myself, this could very well be the case - but I just doubt it as I looked at a lot of stoves and chimneys at friends places and no one has so much problems with smoke when reloading.
If the shop won't help, which I expect - I will hire an certified chimney sweeper and installer - to inspect my chimney - as a last resort.
But to be honest, I'm very unsatisfied with this modern stove.
I will replace the current cap:
...with this one (again), as the one below didn't show smoke leaking problems when refilling:
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If you take off the cap and burn without any cap does the smoke problem go away? That should tell you if it is a cap problem or not. My friends got the wind cap and I don’t think it really made a difference to their problem which was back puffing during high winds from a certain direction.
And my Jotul f 400 will more often than not leak some exhaust into the room when I open the door no matter how carefully I do it. Also when the logs are placed in it can redirect some smoke and push it out. Seems like the air wash system that pushes air down the door glass gets pushed out somewhat.
Thanks for reassuring... I think I enjoy wood burning too much to quit, it's just the frustration of not getting grip on it. Thanks for all the help and support so far. I'll keep you updated and continue trail and error and contacting the shop.
Hi again, I got some new insights, but the smoke issue is still not gone...
Just by accident I discovered that the first cap that I used produces much lower draft than the other, second hand cap.
I had problems with rain dripping into my flue t-piece end cap. So I sealed and inspected all connections on the chimney flue. Because I also had smoke leaking into my room problems, I bought a 1 meter extension pipe, aluminium, together with a cap. This is a cap which doesn't move like this one:
My newly bought cap which I installed from the beginning is this one:
When I installed the extension pipe I installed the non-moving cap, just to check if this cap would not leak rain into the flue. I discovered that both seem to let rain in the flue. After drawing this conclusion I replaced the old second hand aluminium cap with the stainless steel moving cap (bottom image). But then it suddenly was much more difficult to start and keep running a fire! The windspeed was low also (1-2 Bft), but I remembered when using the non moving aluminium cap that I was still able to start a fire with these windspeeds without much trouble. I used the moving cap for one week, wind speeds stayed low at 1-2 Bft, but sometimes I even didn't manage to start a fire at all! Flames were dark coloured, that is orange, rather than light coloured, that is white / yellow.
I think the colour of the flames is an indication of draft strength: the brighter / more yellow / white a flame is, the better is draft and darker flames / orange indicate bad draft / air flow.
So yesterday I climbed the roof again (did it many times now...) and replaced the moving cap with the non moving cap again. Before doing this I lighted a fire and I was unable to start it. After replacing the cap I lighted the fire again and it just started without any problems. I checked windspeed before and after and before it was 2 Bft, after it was also 2 Bft but soon increased to 3 Bft.
So I'm quite sure the moving cap actually reduces draft, while it was advised by the seller because he sold me it should improve draft. It was acutally three times as expensive as the more commonly seen non moving cap...
So yesterday I had no smoke leaking into my room problems at all! But today with windspeed 2-3 Bft, the fire started easily, bright strong flames, but while the fire was burning I still smell smoke in my room. Not very strong and very unpleasant, but still unwanted and enough to crack a window and do some venting.
So I'm still not 100% satisfied. I can hear a constant (strong) draft, at least, this is how interpret draft right now by watching and listening. I made a video and put it on youtube so you could have a look and maybe you can tell me how good the fire seems to burn in your opinion and maybe you can tell something on draft from this video?
(wood MC was around 12-15%, stove top temperature was >= 500F)
Just by accident I discovered that the first cap that I used produces much lower draft than the other, second hand cap.
I had problems with rain dripping into my flue t-piece end cap. So I sealed and inspected all connections on the chimney flue. Because I also had smoke leaking into my room problems, I bought a 1 meter extension pipe, aluminium, together with a cap. This is a cap which doesn't move like this one:
My newly bought cap which I installed from the beginning is this one:
When I installed the extension pipe I installed the non-moving cap, just to check if this cap would not leak rain into the flue. I discovered that both seem to let rain in the flue. After drawing this conclusion I replaced the old second hand aluminium cap with the stainless steel moving cap (bottom image). But then it suddenly was much more difficult to start and keep running a fire! The windspeed was low also (1-2 Bft), but I remembered when using the non moving aluminium cap that I was still able to start a fire with these windspeeds without much trouble. I used the moving cap for one week, wind speeds stayed low at 1-2 Bft, but sometimes I even didn't manage to start a fire at all! Flames were dark coloured, that is orange, rather than light coloured, that is white / yellow.
I think the colour of the flames is an indication of draft strength: the brighter / more yellow / white a flame is, the better is draft and darker flames / orange indicate bad draft / air flow.
So yesterday I climbed the roof again (did it many times now...) and replaced the moving cap with the non moving cap again. Before doing this I lighted a fire and I was unable to start it. After replacing the cap I lighted the fire again and it just started without any problems. I checked windspeed before and after and before it was 2 Bft, after it was also 2 Bft but soon increased to 3 Bft.
So I'm quite sure the moving cap actually reduces draft, while it was advised by the seller because he sold me it should improve draft. It was acutally three times as expensive as the more commonly seen non moving cap...
So yesterday I had no smoke leaking into my room problems at all! But today with windspeed 2-3 Bft, the fire started easily, bright strong flames, but while the fire was burning I still smell smoke in my room. Not very strong and very unpleasant, but still unwanted and enough to crack a window and do some venting.
So I'm still not 100% satisfied. I can hear a constant (strong) draft, at least, this is how interpret draft right now by watching and listening. I made a video and put it on youtube so you could have a look and maybe you can tell me how good the fire seems to burn in your opinion and maybe you can tell something on draft from this video?
(wood MC was around 12-15%, stove top temperature was >= 500F)
Thats a ripping fire. Surely very early in the burn and you reduce air considerably for a regular lengthy burn? Draft does not look like an issue when the fire is getting as much air as shown in your video. Do you get the smell when the air control is properly set? Or just when wide open as shown? Good luck!
Are u sure the smoke is coming from the inside of your house? Go outside and watch where the smoke goes after it leaves the chimney. Does it smell like wood smoke or could your stove or pipe still be curing and giving off a more burning paint smell? And also could there be dust or small bits of creasote, or even spiderwebs that have dropped onto the stove or the horizontal outlet pipe that could be giving you that smell?
With that draft you showed and the stove door closed, even a hole in the pipe would pull air onto it and not let any out.
With that draft you showed and the stove door closed, even a hole in the pipe would pull air onto it and not let any out.
Hi again!
I think draft is ok now - it has been very windy, 5-8 Bft, last weeks here. Draft was ok, but it seems that windspeed doesn't alter draft very much - for instance, when it's 7 Bft, it's not like draft increases linear, it's maybe a bit better than 3 Bft, but not twice or more it seems to me.
But the sucking sound from the chimney gets much more pronounced when windspeed increases. I think the baffle plate dampens the high draft.
As long as I follow the next rules, I only occasionally have minor smoke getting in my livingroom problems:
* use Swiss method to start fire: medium sized logs at bottom, smaller size in middle and very small (0,5 cm) at the top together with some paper. I use alcohol on the paper to boost the heating up process which works well. It takes time to do all the preparations (splitting in 3 different sizes), but it pays off
* pre-dry wood indoors for a few days: this lowers moisture content from 16% before indoor drying to 10-12% after indoor drying.
* reload on coals: there should no flames be visible
* at first reload, skip large logs. First put 2 small pieces at the botton, put 2 or 3 medium sized logs on top of it. The smaller pieces help to quickly raise temperature as temperature drops quickly when waiting for reloading on coals. They boost the process of burning the medium sized logs. I learned this from a local fellow wood burner. Before this I just put medium sized logs in the firebox without the smaller pieces and this sometimes created slow burning, smoking medium sized logs.
* it's better to burn hot with bright flames and shorter burning times rather than reduce air intake too much and have longer burning times: the latter produces more outdoor smoke and lower stove temperatures and makes it more difficult to start the fire after a reload
So after all it's getting better, and I get the impression that the problems are mainly due to the rather specific way I have to operate this modern stove. Maybe the flue has not a very high draft, but personally I think draft is good as most of the times I hear the wind blowing and I hear strong air flow in the stove. But the baffle seems to keep draft in the stove quite constant.
So afterall I'm happy with the stove, although it's a bit complicated to operate in my opinion. But I really enjoy the whole process of preparing the wood (splitting it by hand), letting it dry, periodically measuring / monitoring it's MC, inspecting the chimney while burning and discovering after 15 mins of starting the stove the blueish smoke completely disappears and only moving layers of air (radiation) is visible, starting the fire, keeping it constantly hot, etc.
I will keep visiting this place, thanks a lot for all your support, and I will try to help others here with similar problems, although I'm still a bit of a newbie.
I think draft is ok now - it has been very windy, 5-8 Bft, last weeks here. Draft was ok, but it seems that windspeed doesn't alter draft very much - for instance, when it's 7 Bft, it's not like draft increases linear, it's maybe a bit better than 3 Bft, but not twice or more it seems to me.
But the sucking sound from the chimney gets much more pronounced when windspeed increases. I think the baffle plate dampens the high draft.
As long as I follow the next rules, I only occasionally have minor smoke getting in my livingroom problems:
* use Swiss method to start fire: medium sized logs at bottom, smaller size in middle and very small (0,5 cm) at the top together with some paper. I use alcohol on the paper to boost the heating up process which works well. It takes time to do all the preparations (splitting in 3 different sizes), but it pays off
* pre-dry wood indoors for a few days: this lowers moisture content from 16% before indoor drying to 10-12% after indoor drying.
* reload on coals: there should no flames be visible
* at first reload, skip large logs. First put 2 small pieces at the botton, put 2 or 3 medium sized logs on top of it. The smaller pieces help to quickly raise temperature as temperature drops quickly when waiting for reloading on coals. They boost the process of burning the medium sized logs. I learned this from a local fellow wood burner. Before this I just put medium sized logs in the firebox without the smaller pieces and this sometimes created slow burning, smoking medium sized logs.
* it's better to burn hot with bright flames and shorter burning times rather than reduce air intake too much and have longer burning times: the latter produces more outdoor smoke and lower stove temperatures and makes it more difficult to start the fire after a reload
So after all it's getting better, and I get the impression that the problems are mainly due to the rather specific way I have to operate this modern stove. Maybe the flue has not a very high draft, but personally I think draft is good as most of the times I hear the wind blowing and I hear strong air flow in the stove. But the baffle seems to keep draft in the stove quite constant.
So afterall I'm happy with the stove, although it's a bit complicated to operate in my opinion. But I really enjoy the whole process of preparing the wood (splitting it by hand), letting it dry, periodically measuring / monitoring it's MC, inspecting the chimney while burning and discovering after 15 mins of starting the stove the blueish smoke completely disappears and only moving layers of air (radiation) is visible, starting the fire, keeping it constantly hot, etc.
I will keep visiting this place, thanks a lot for all your support, and I will try to help others here with similar problems, although I'm still a bit of a newbie.
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