You also have to realize that in 1974 a fisher grandma bear cost about $300. That is equivelant to about $1600 today. And that fishers were not exactly expensive stoves. Now you can buy some good stoves that work much better that a fisher for less than that $1600. Yes you can spend allot more but you dont have to. As far as hooking it up that cost is still about the same for a good setup when inflation is accounted for.
State of the Wood Burning Industry
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Good point, in a lot of cases, after adjusting for inflation, you're probably getting more for less now. Worth remembering that 1974 was pretty much the height of the energy crisis with high fuel prices and an uncertain supply so people pretty motivated to have an alternate heat source.
We bought our Resolute in 1980 for around $450. That was a big deal for us. Cost more than our car.
I think one thing not mentioned is the requirements for truly seasoned wood now.
Most people burning wood around here are used to ordering a truck load in the summer, or cutting splitting in the spring and burning in the winter. We know that uses more wood, but the old burners would do it a lot better. Now people see new stoves performing terrible with their current wood habits and the idea of having almost 3 years of wood somewhere on hand is pretty intimidating. That has to factor into sales some.
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Most people burning wood around here are used to ordering a truck load in the summer, or cutting splitting in the spring and burning in the winter. We know that uses more wood, but the old burners would do it a lot better. Now people see new stoves performing terrible with their current wood habits and the idea of having almost 3 years of wood somewhere on hand is pretty intimidating. That has to factor into sales some.
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Though I don’t have a wood stove I use my fireplace Friday nights to Sunday night I still insist on well seasoned wood. I’ve been lucky that I’ve been able to scrounge enough wood during spring that is well past being green, anything I scrounge green is set aside for next year. My neighbor buys his wood in the fall and stores much of it behind his garage where it gets little sun. My chimney puts out a heat plume while his puts out smoke. Though it does smell nice. My father burns wood that has been sitting around two years or more in his Jodul.
Lloyd the redneck
Feeling the Heat
I would love to buy a new insert and stove for the shop. And a small stove for my "master suite" (the upstairs of my house ) but I can't afford it. I burn wood to save money. Sure it takes some labor but I have time to do that. Just buying and installing a insert myself is in the 4500$+ range. At my usage of fuel oil that's roughly 8 years. With no effort other than calling the neighbor to refill my tank. I picked up a 84 insert and a 80's daka stove for the shop. Spent a whopping 250$ with fuel to go get them. Scrounged a splitter from my cousin who built one just for fun and Dosent use it. All in all I have about 300$ into heating 2 buildings. And the wife hates my big ugly insert and is still mad I took out the fireplace glass. But 4500$ is just too much. I can't get my roi back reasonably , in my eyes anyways.
There is value in burning less wood, having something nice to look at year round, and having a happy wife.
Lloyd the redneck
Feeling the Heat
that is true. Skimming by and dumping free cash into investments that return in months is what I'd rather do. And her having to look at some black iron instead of a fire tough luck when she gets to drive a late model suburban every day.
Fancy late model vehicles are not my thing. However, heating my house with a very clean burning, high efficiency, pretty stove is important to me. I enjoy it and don't mind dropping the coin on it.
The money saved in gas by a smaller vehicle might pay for the insert.
lhuffhines
Member
It has been a tough two years. 2014 was a great year for most MFG due to cold weather and higher than normal oil prices. then 2015 hit with a late and mild winter, decent oil pricing and lots of new EPA regs. 2016 was a carbon copy thus many dealers and big boxes had massive amounts of carryover. I see that today. However, I do also see a good upward trend as the economy has been rebounding. We need a Cold winter or there will be some starving stove sales men and women out here. I heard rumors of folks getting pre-buy oil for under $2.00/ gallon! ouch.
As for the EPA, it is definitely a pay to play game. engineering costs to develop a new model, get it tested, tweak it, test again, tweak some more and then get final approval all add up. Wood and pellet stove were not as much of a challenge this go around as the furnaces were. Many warm air furnaces on the market used old designs. the new ones that are starting to hit have massive amounts of testing and development in them.
I could go on about other factors to the slide. things such as a consumer buying / researching change, etc. are also hurting the traditional hearth stores.
As for the EPA, it is definitely a pay to play game. engineering costs to develop a new model, get it tested, tweak it, test again, tweak some more and then get final approval all add up. Wood and pellet stove were not as much of a challenge this go around as the furnaces were. Many warm air furnaces on the market used old designs. the new ones that are starting to hit have massive amounts of testing and development in them.
I could go on about other factors to the slide. things such as a consumer buying / researching change, etc. are also hurting the traditional hearth stores.
I know so many people that want a stove or insert, but once they realize how much work it is to get dry wood, they are out of it.
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kennyp2339
Minister of Fire
Same with making inferior (I mean cheaper) products over sea's and importing them in for resale, pay to play gets you a UL label to.
lhuffhines
Member
I wont deny that we manufacture a large portion of our products overseas. Cost to produce is a major factor here. We do not use UL to certify our products. we use Intertek. They Certify them to the same standard for safety as UL does.
WoodyIsGoody
Minister of Fire
Having a stock of well seasoned wood is the same amount of work as green wood, it just takes an extra couple years. And from that perspective, seasoned wood could be considered less work because you are cutting, splitting and stacking the wood you would otherwise have to when your body had aged two more years!
Want me to show you how to get rid of that useless clutter?
kennyp2339
Minister of Fire
That answers all my questions of why my stove fell apart after 2 years of use, thank you for being honest.
lhuffhines
Member
Kenny, I would like to discuss more. can you send me a PM so that we dont derail this thread? what stove, where did you get it and what went wrong with it?
kennyp2339
Minister of Fire
Yes, I will be more than happy to, I actually still have the stove in my garage, so let me take pictures first when I get home, also there's another member that had the same issues around the same time I had mine. Thank you for being attentive.
WoodyIsGoody
Minister of Fire
Yes, the warm winter greatly impacts sales. EPA regs? Overall they increase sales of replacement stoves because they drive innovation to create stoves that provide more heat for less wood and do it without blanketing communities with clouds of unhealthy shame. They make heating with wood responsible and respectful. Sales are driven when people realize there is something better out there, that their old smoke-dragon is inefficient, out- dated and unhealthy.
Before EPA regs, people had less reason to upgrade.
Yes, the US economy has been steadily increasing for 8 years. But the first qtr. of 2017 saw the weakest growth since 2014. Stove sales are much more closely tied to energy prices than the strength of the economy. IMO, the four biggest factors causing slow stove sales are (in order of importance); 1) Warmer weather. 2) Cheap gas/oil 3) homes that require less heat to stay comfortable 4) Consumer laziness. It's much easier to turn the dial that cut, split, stack wood and carry it into the house and build a fire. The only two factors that might reverse this trend is more expensive gas/oil/electricity and cooler weather.
I'm so glad someone is looking out for consumers (in terms of keeping the air healthy and keeping efficiency high). Because the average consumer is not at all equipped to magically know which stove design might be better. Without the EPA, manufactures have very little incentive to constantly improve cleanliness and efficiency. And I believe any product worth putting into full scale production is worth testing to insure it will perform well.
lhuffhines
Member
good Points WoodyisGoody.
The EPA regulations IMO were not understood by the consumers. yes we did see many want to replace their stove, however alot had sticker shock when they went to buy a new one vs just replace theirs because it was not "clean burning". EPA did not force consumers to get new product, just forced manufacturers to meet the new standards for new items sold. As a company, we made significant investments on developing new technology and refining what we had to meet these standards. there will be some out there who cannot make these capital investments. They will go under. Just like the did in the 80's when there were well over 500 Manufacturers. After phase 1, that number went to 100. Today there are just a handful or two Manufacturers. The regs will force those who didnt invest or participate out of the business. those that were positioned for the future will gobble them up.
"The only two factors that might reverse this trend is more expensive gas/oil/electricity and cooler weather." ABSOLUTELY
!
The 2020 standards will be a very telling time for the industry. For stoves, it will be hard fake a test with hidden software (Fiat, Volkswagen).
The EPA regulations IMO were not understood by the consumers. yes we did see many want to replace their stove, however alot had sticker shock when they went to buy a new one vs just replace theirs because it was not "clean burning". EPA did not force consumers to get new product, just forced manufacturers to meet the new standards for new items sold. As a company, we made significant investments on developing new technology and refining what we had to meet these standards. there will be some out there who cannot make these capital investments. They will go under. Just like the did in the 80's when there were well over 500 Manufacturers. After phase 1, that number went to 100. Today there are just a handful or two Manufacturers. The regs will force those who didnt invest or participate out of the business. those that were positioned for the future will gobble them up.
"The only two factors that might reverse this trend is more expensive gas/oil/electricity and cooler weather." ABSOLUTELY
! The 2020 standards will be a very telling time for the industry. For stoves, it will be hard fake a test with hidden software (Fiat, Volkswagen).
Like companies that sold old exempt designs for years? Or ones that just meat the regulations because they only burnt at a set level with no adjustment. But then had a stove top damper sold with the stove to control it but negate the clean burn.
Do you agree that stoves today perform much better than the stoves before the first round of regs came into place?
lhuffhines
Member
I meant that companies that have invested in making cleaner burning products will eat those that may be scrambling to do so.
As for performance, do you mean Heat output or the cleanliness of the burn? Heat output, Nope. much of what is done today to a stove to meet the regs without a CAT design a stove to keep the heat in. Higher internal temps allow for a re-burn of the exhaust gasses cleaning them up before they hit the flue. Cleanliness wise, yes. stoves today are cleaner than they were in round 1 and before. there is no doubt about that.
I mean efficiency as in getting more heat out of each piece of wood. All while putting much less flammable material into the chimney there fore reducing risk of chimney fires. No they may not have the peak heat output of the old ones but they give you more heat with less wood over a longer period of time.
WoodyIsGoody
Minister of Fire
There is usually a way to circumvent any regulation but that doesn't mean that the regulation (overall) is not having the desired effect.
There is no doubt that modern EPA stoves on average put out more heat/cord than early EPA stoves. That's a primary reason why I picked up a new Chinook 30 this morning to replace my early EPA stove. Also no doubt they release much less pollutants that cause sickness and premature death.
As to pure BTU's, there is no doubt that, if you're willing to constantly load them with additional wood, the older stoves put out more total btu's. But less efficiently. The newer stoves are more suitable for modern houses which tend to be built or upgraded with more insulation, more efficient windows/doors, etc. If you live in a drafty farmhouse you want and need more btu's even if it requires 6-10 cords/season. If you live in an energy efficient structure, that is a problem keeping the structure in the comfort zone. Newer stoves excel at this.
I agree completely. I was pointing out that some stove companies seemed to do everything they could to keep selling the old stove designs long after they should have replaced them.
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