State of the Wood Burning Industry

[kennyp2339]

I am actually very interested in what Ihuffhines has to say, he seems like he's trying to put his best foot forward and has recognized that the industry is ever changing. If there is anyone here that has an issue with US stove it would be me and I'm going in this open minded. I hope this rep keeps contributing.

 

[webby3650]

I agree completely. I was pointing out that some stove companies seemed to do everything they could to keep selling the old stove designs long after they should have replaced them.

I agree! There's several non-cat stoves out there that seem to have almost no control. To meet 2020 regs, we will see non-cats that have no low burn as we know it, only high to medium.. Cat stoves will eliminate high burn as we know it, they will only have a medium to low.. Usability is what will suffer and the cost will increase. Sad but true! No thought will be given to the consumer unfortunately. Only a few manufacturers will step out ahead of the rest and offer a user friendly stove.

 

[bholler]

I agree! There's several non-cat stoves out there that seem to have almost no control. To meet 2020 regs, we will see non-cats that have no low burn as we know it, only high to medium.. Cat stoves will eliminate high burn as we know it, they will only have a medium to low.. Usability is what will suffer and the cost will increase. Sad but true! No thought will be given to the consumer unfortunately. Only a few manufacturers will step out ahead of the rest and offer a user friendly stove.

Most will figure it out. There will be misteps i am sure but i have no doubt they will come through

 

[WoodyIsGoody]

I agree! There's several non-cat stoves out there that seem to have almost no control. To meet 2020 regs, we will see non-cats that have no low burn as we know it, only high to medium.. Cat stoves will eliminate high burn as we know it, they will only have a medium to low.. Usability is what will suffer and the cost will increase. Sad but true! No thought will be given to the consumer unfortunately. Only a few manufacturers will step out ahead of the rest and offer a user friendly stove.

I thought current Blaze King models (with some of the widest ranges of heat outputs on the market today) already meet 2020 regs? If that's true (and I haven't verified that), then it would show that 2020 regs are only overly burdensome to manufacturers who do not excel at their craft. And I've always thought it was a good thing for poor performers to get weeded out rather than have a bunch of substandard products flooding the market to ensnare unwary consumers.

I am actually shocked at the slow pace of innovation in the industry overall. With cheap, low power microprocessors and thermoelectric generators to power them without batteries or wall outlets having been available for years, I would have expected to see wood-burning enter the 21st century with the introduction of microprocessor controlled forced induction using digital monitoring/controls. Microprocessors have already been successfully deployed in $400-$600 chainsaws but not in woodstoves costing $3000-$4000??? The woodstove industry in lagging when it comes to true innovation.

My new Stihl 261 C-M is amazing to start and operate. Each time I start it I do it exactly the same way, regardless of whether it's stone cold, recently warm or up to full operating temperature. The microprocessor adjusts for differences in air density caused by temperature or altitude as well as the quality of your fuel. And I did not expect the power and cutting speed to exceed my venerable old 026 but it does, and by a good margin. Particularly noticeable is the increase in torque when the saw is fully loaded in the cut. It's also the cleanest burning saw I've ever had the pleasure of using. Nothing can take ones breath away like a lung-full of carbon monoxide. Fuel tank lasts longer too. The best thing is it does all these things without additional maintenance and there is no battery. It is expected that saws will last much longer too since a primary cause of saw failure is piston scoring caused by over-heating (typically from a too lean running condition).

Why is the chainsaw industry so much more dynamic than the woodstove industry? EPA regs drove the changes in chainsaws, perhaps the EPA woodstove regulations are not stringent enough!

 

[Lcback]

I thought current Blaze King models (with some of the widest ranges of heat outputs on the market today) already meet 2020 regs? If that's true (and I haven't verified that), then it would show that 2020 regs are only overly burdensome to manufacturers who do not excel at their craft. And I've always thought it was a good thing for poor performers to get weeded out rather than have a bunch of substandard products flooding the market to ensnare unwary consumers.

I am actually shocked at the slow pace of innovation in the industry overall. With cheap, low power microprocessors and thermoelectric generators to power them without batteries or wall outlets having been available for years, I would have expected to see wood-burning enter the 21st century with the introduction of microprocessor controlled forced induction using digital monitoring/controls. Microprocessors have already been successfully deployed in $400-$600 chainsaws but not in woodstoves costing $3000-$4000??? The woodstove industry in lagging when it comes to true innovation.

My new Stihl 261 C-M is amazing to start and operate. Each time I start it I do it exactly the same way, regardless of whether it's stone cold, recently warm or up to full operating temperature. The microprocessor adjusts for differences in air density caused by temperature or altitude as well as the quality of your fuel. And I did not expect the power and cutting speed to exceed my venerable old 026 but it does, and by a good margin. Particularly noticeable is the increase in torque when the saw is fully loaded in the cut. It's also the cleanest burning saw I've ever had the pleasure of using. Nothing can take ones breath away like a lung-full of carbon monoxide. Fuel tank lasts longer too. The best thing is it does all these things without additional maintenance and there is no battery. It is expected that saws will last much longer too since a primary cause of saw failure is piston scoring caused by over-heating (typically from a too lean running condition).

Why is the chainsaw industry so much more dynamic than the woodstove industry? EPA regs drove the changes in chainsaws, perhaps the EPA woodstove regulations are not stringent enough!

There has to be a battery of some sort for the micro-processor to be doing anything before it's started. It may be a tiny watch cell on the board, but it will die eventually. And when it does you will have to replace that board.

That being said stoves should be able to have a backup power without adding so much cost. But it would need a power source for normal operation if you want any fans or process control.

Furnaces are what bug me. The only way to get that stuff is to pay through the nose, or do it yourself. And they are already required to be plugged in.

But remember everyone here is an enthusiast, someone who really pays attention to their stove. We are the minority, I'd bet all the wood burning enthusiasts make up less then 5% of the wood burning population. Lots of those people don't like change.

My dad's Buck Stove is 30 years old, And has worked just fine all this time. To him there is no reason to spend thousands on a new one when he is happy with what he has. I bet that mentality makes up 90% of the wood burning population. A stove maker can't survive selling to the 5% unless they charge through the nose.

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[jetsam]

There's no reason a stove couldn't run an onboard computer forever. A small controller board might just need a couple watts to run. A tiny thermoelectric module could keep a cheap lithium (or even lead acid) battery charged, and the board could run off of the battery.

A thermoelectric module big enough to run onboard fans is a different question- that is certainly possible but would add significantly to the price of the unit. You wouldn't need a battery for that though (only need the fans when the stove is hot).

 

[Squirrely]

Well that was why earlier I agreed with the articles point about box store stoves. I feel the articles point about the impact of them on dealer sold units is legit. Englander's and even the single burn rate units mentioned (Vogelzang?) meet the current standards and can be had at reasonable cost. Saving that $1-2K allows for a quicker pay back which justifies an otherwise unjustifiable purchase for many.

But they are no frills which it seems is what the market currently favors. The comment by HHT about the relative failure of their thermostatically controlled unit speaks to this. I don't know how well the design was executed but with a poor reception and R&D money going towards meeting regs, HHT and others manufacturers are less likely to risk development of other innovative designs at the moment. Once oil etc. prices rise things may change but it takes time to bring a product to market and I'm guessing the manufacturers can't turn on a dime.

Thanks for posting the article. It's a fascinating look into the industry. I noted the reference to record stove sales in 2008. In my opinion one minor contributing factor not mentioned is preppers. Whenever the credit/debt driven economy goes through its inevitable cratering cycle, it causes some people to reasses how they're living, so they look outside the box for off grid ways to become more self reliant and less dependent... and wood stoves are right at the top of the list.

I totally agree with your "no frills" comment. My wife and I are homesteaders, and the main factor driving our stove choice was which one is the most simple and robust, easiest to operate, has the least "new features", and doesn't have any finicky expensive to replace parts.

As to low priced stoves referenced in the article... I'm looking at the footer ad on this page from Ace hardware stores. They're advertizing two wood stoves at $299 and $199 with free store pickup. That's got to drag down the average sales price.

 

[webby3650]

Everyone already complains of the expense! And when there's a parts failure they get blown up on the internet! Computerized woodstoves? No thanks...
Pellet stoves are what you're describing, they've been plagued with issues over the years. Same goes with IPI gas systems, standing pilot worked great, IPI has struggled and many manufacturers are abandoning it when possible. I prefer simple, clean burning designs.

 

[Squirrely]

I totally agree with this comment. Stoves are getting too expensive. Not to mention replacement parts.....wow. Some manufacturers have incentives and sales all year long now. But with shipping and install.... it simply too much money for a lot of people.

The unavoidable cost of government is automatically built into every stove sold.

 

[Squirrely]

Everyone already complains of the expense! And when there's a parts failure they get blown up on the internet! Computerized woodstives? No thanks...

I totally agree, webby... "smart" is dumb.

We bought a Blue Star commerical cook stove specifically because of it's simplicity. It has no computer and works when the electricity goes out. Everything on the cook surface is seasoned cast iron and the rest is all stainless steel. It's built like a truck.

 

[Squirrely]

We bought our Resolute in 1980 for around $450. That was a big deal for us. Cost more than our car.

We bought our Efel in 1984 for $500 and sold it this year for $500 inflated dollars. Come to think of it, that's not much of a return on investment.

 

[Squirrely]

I wont deny that we manufacture a large portion of our products overseas. Cost to produce is a major factor here. We do not use UL to certify our products. we use Intertek. They Certify them to the same standard for safety as UL does.

No one could ever fault you for manufacturing out of country. You're driven out by the cost of the government that people here created to govern their lives because they failed to govern themselves.

 

[WoodyIsGoody]

There has to be a battery of some sort for the micro-processor to be doing anything before it's started. It may be a tiny watch cell on the board, but it will die eventually. And when it does you will have to replace that board.

Well, there's no battery in my Stihl MS 261 C-M. But if it made sense in a microprocessor controlled woodstove, it would add very minimal cost.

That being said stoves should be able to have a backup power without adding so much cost. But it would need a power source for normal operation if you want any fans or process control.

For a cold start in a microprocessor controlled woodstove, I envision a tiny and efficient rare earth magnet powered mini-fan feeding a small starting chamber that is cast in insulating ceramic and shaped to maximize the swirling effect and situated to direct the initial heat at the bottom of the load of big wood. The battery required would be minimal, perhaps one AA Li (that could be recharged when the stove reached temperature using the thermo-electric generator). After the initial start, there would be enough natural draft for the microprocessor to direct the flow of the natural draft intake air through one of 10 ports cast into the firebox floor (depending upon where the microprocessor determined the air could be best utilized). A roaring fire would be created in under 5 minutes via intelligent air flow management.

But remember everyone here is an enthusiast, someone who really pays attention to their stove. We are the minority, I'd bet all the wood burning enthusiasts make up less then 5% of the wood burning population. Lots of those people don't like change.

I think you are under-estimating market share of a smart stove when limiting the potential market to wood heating enthusiasts. I'll go back to Stihl saws as an example. People who buy Stihl saws pay a premium. It is generally not because they are chainsaw enthusiasts but because they want the best saw available. I think a smart stove would have similar market share once it was recognized as superior.

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Want me to show you how to get rid of that useless clutter?

 

[bholler]

No one could ever fault you for manufacturing out of country. You're driven out by the cost of the government that people here created to govern their lives because they failed to govern themselves.

The problem with that reasoning is that many other manuacturers make their stoves here. Yes most of them are a higher price point but englanders arent. They hit the same price point and generally have better quality control as well. Products can still be manufactured here the whole govt making it to expensive thing is a crock.

 

[WoodyIsGoody]

Everyone already complains of the expense! And when there's a parts failure they get blown up on the internet! Computerized woodstoves? No thanks...

Well, may I remind you that tech luddites once said the same thing about automobile electronic fuel injection (yeah, like that's gonna be reliable, ha!), anti-lock brakes (are you crazy, let a computer come between my brake foot and the brake?), and airbags (no thanks, I'm a good driver, don't need no stinking airbags).

Now, modern computerized cars are the most reliable cars on the road and anti-lock brakes and airbags have saved millions of lives and if you see a car broken down on the road it's probably a dinosaur, not a computer controlled marvel.

Pellet stoves are what you're describing, they've been plagued with issues over the years.

This speaks to the lack of real innovation in the industry. If Stihl's microprocessor controlled chainsaws were designed by the same people who did pellet stoves they would be sucky chainsaws. But the brilliant people who did it made a vastly better product. There will always be those people who honestly believe technology is bad, unreliable or even evil and that will be true long after there are microprocessor controlled woodstoves that put a 2020 model to shame. The rest of us will be singing their praises. Such is human nature.

 

[WoodyIsGoody]

Products can still be manufactured here the whole govt making it to expensive thing is a crock.

This is true. All stoves sold in the US must meet the same standards for the market they are sold in.

What is also true is that American workers make higher wages than many (but not all) countries that import stoves. The fact that these imported stoves from lower wage countries are allowed to compete head to head with stoves made here speaks more to a lack of governmental regulation, not excessive regulation.

Get your facts straight!

 

[Squirrely]

Products can still be manufactured here the whole govt making it to expensive thing is a crock. .

Not too expensive... more expensive.
Every consumer pays for the cost of government they created. Businesses don't pay that cost. They simply pass it onto the end user by higher purchase prices.

It's perfectly natural for businesses to seek to perserve profits by avoiding a government which feeds off of every transaction. There's price parity between domestic stoves because they're all paying the same cost of government. Although foreign manufacturing has increased freight costs if they weren't enough to offset the economic benefits they'd be manufacturing here.

 

[bholler]

Not too expensive... more expensive.
Every consumer pays for the cost of government they created. Businesses don't pay that cost. They simply pass it onto the end user by higher purchase prices.

It's perfectly natural for businesses to seek to perserve profits by avoiding a government which feeds off of every transaction. There's price parity between domestic stoves because they're all paying the same cost of government. Although foreign manufacturing has increased freight costs if they weren't enough to offset the economic benefits they'd be manufacturing here.

Again most are manufactured here and most of those that are not are canadian. So why is us stove company one of the only ones that imports like they do? The same reason they still sell unsafe low quality crap as well. They care about nothing but their profit margin.

 

[WoodyIsGoody]

You're driven out by the cost of the government that people here created to govern their lives because they failed to govern themselves.

Whatever that's supposed to mean. Because no country has ever managed to govern itself without an actual government. It has something to do with human nature.

The countries having governments with the most regulations and taxes are widely regarded as the most desirable countries to live in.

Examples (in no particular order); USA, Sweden, Germany, France, Canada, Italy, England, New Zealand, Australia etc.

The countries with the least regulation and smallest governments are not widely regarded as desirable places to live.

Examples (in no particular order); Jakarta, Serbia, Ukraine, Venezuela, Laos, Sierra Leon, Mozambique, Zimbabwe, Somalia, etc.

These countries may not have the kind of environmental regulation, workplace safety and working conditions regulations, automobile pollution and safety regulation, financial and banking regulation, building codes and regulation, etc. that we have in the US, but they are also worse places to live. So there is a strong correlation between rules, regulations and standards vs. desirability and the happiness of residents, not an inverse relationship as you imply. Economically, the same correlation with rules and regulations holds true.

 

[webby3650]

Well, may I remind you that tech luddites once said the same thing about automobile electronic fuel injection (yeah, like that's gonna be reliable, ha!), anti-lock brakes (are you crazy, let a computer come between my brake foot and the brake?), and airbags (no thanks, I'm a good driver, don't need no stinking airbags).

Now, modern computerized cars are the most reliable cars on the road and anti-lock brakes and airbags have saved millions of lives and if you see a car broken down on the road it's probably a dinosaur, not a computer controlled marvel.



This speaks to the lack of real innovation in the industry. If Stihl's microprocessor controlled chainsaws were designed by the same people who did pellet stoves they would be sucky chainsaws. But the brilliant people who did it made a vastly better product. There will always be those people who honestly believe technology is bad, unreliable or even evil and that will be true long after there are microprocessor controlled woodstoves that put a 2020 model to shame. The rest of us will be singing their praises. Such is human nature.

I'm all for technological advances. But I just don't see a reason to complicate a woodstove in such a way.

 

[bholler]

I'm all for technological advances. But I just don't see a reason to complicate a woodstove in such a way.

You do realize that people said exactly the same thing about cat stoves right? And most of the early ones were pretty bad. I don't think all stoves on the market should be smart stoves by any means but why not develop them and see where it goes?

 

[WoodyIsGoody]

I'm all for technological advances. But I just don't see a reason to complicate a woodstove in such a way.

That's exactly what car enthusiasts said about cars back in the 1970's! Have you ever driven a 1960's or '70's car? Even the muscle cars of the day were gutless. They only seemed fast when comparing them to non-muscle cars which were even more gutless. But, boy, could they burn the gas! They stunk too. When you smell the stinky exhaust of a classic car on the road, just remember, that's not because it's worn out, that's how every car used to smell. Collectively, they were largely responsible for the stupendous smog that developed over population centers on windless days.

If wood burning is to increase it's market share of the home heating market, we absolutely need to harness technology to make it even cleaner and easier to use. There will always be old, dilapidated and poor performing smoke dragons here and there, just as you still see (and smell) stinky old gutless cars on the road. But the vast majority will be newer units that have harnessed advanced technology, testing and microprocessers to create a vastly superior product. This is not only good, it's inevitable.

 

[webby3650]

You do realize that people said exactly the same thing about cat stoves right? And most of the early ones were pretty bad. I don't think all stoves on the market should be smart stoves by any means but why not develop them and see where it goes?

I was referring to a computer driven stove, not a catalyst.

 

[Lcback]

I'm all for technological advances. But I just don't see a reason to complicate a woodstove in such a way.

I agree. Man most of those improvements would be a manufacturing nightmare not to mention the quality control.

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[bholler]

I was referring to a computer driven stove, not a catalyst.

Yes i know that but when they first started putting cats in stoves people said exatly the same thing about them that you are saying about smart stoves. There are still plenty of people that feel that way about cat stoves. Or even tube stoves