Tesla Model 3 Parked in Our Garage

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The only time that I feel that power that pull me into the seat is when I drive a SRT ...

My daily driver is an SRT, and I’ve driven the Model S dual motor AWD. The SRT still blows the doors off the Tesla, but I have to admit the Model S is violently quick off the line, or at any speed below 30 mph. The S lacks similar highway passing performance, or really anything much above 30 mph, but it’s fantastic around town.

My family member who owns the Tesla once borrowed my SRT. When my wife asked him what he thought of it, he replied, “frightening.”

If comparing to a Hellcat, just forget it. There’s just no arguing with 707 HP. [emoji3]
 
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Interesting dilemma. CA probably has the most electric cars per capita in the US. It also means that some gas stations won't be pumping either.
 
California residents purchasing electric cars will have to plan for this in the future.
The weekend my e-Golf was delivered, Dorian was hammering the Bahamas just 100 miles away. Had that storm come ashore in South Florida like it hammered Abaco as a Category 5 storm, the charging grid in South Florida would actually be more bleak than California in their current blackouts. I've already done the research on whether you can charge an EV from a generator (if you have gasoline), and the answer appears to be "yes". Now, I just need to build this into my disaster plan.
 
At least electricity can be produced at home -- gasoline, not so much.
This drives our contingency plans -- solar PV with storage and an EV.
 
At least electricity can be produced at home -- gasoline, not so much.
This drives our contingency plans -- solar PV with storage and an EV.

Exactly. Anyone making excuses about EV tech potential (or even current capability) is going to find themselves on the wrong side of history. The only real obstacle at this point is cost and systemic growing pains (eg. loss of gas tax revenue and fast charging grid). I just can’t see spending $65k on a Tesla that is outperformed by equally nice (or better) gassers that can be had < $50k, today. Hopefully that will change real soon.

That said, I also fear what this means for those of us who love a roaring big-displacement engine, when the rest of the world has gone silent. Noise ordinances? Bans on driving ICE’s at certain times or locations? I can see this as a real possibility, having lived long enough to see things come to pass, that our parents would have considered equally unlikely.

In ten years, my daily driver will be an EV with a <2.5 second 0-60 time, but I’ll also have a 427 s/c that comes out to play on sunny days. Hopefully the neighbors don’t mind the noise.
 
Exactly. Anyone making excuses about EV tech potential (or even current capability) is going to find themselves on the wrong side of history. The only real obstacle at this point is cost and systemic growing pains (eg. loss of gas tax revenue and fast charging grid). I just can’t see spending $65k on a Tesla that is outperformed by equally nice (or better) gassers that can be had < $50k, today. Hopefully that will change real soon.

That said, I also fear what this means for those of us who love a roaring big-displacement engine, when the rest of the world has gone silent. Noise ordinances? Bans on driving ICE’s at certain times or locations? I can see this as a real possibility, having lived long enough to see things come to pass, that our parents would have considered equally unlikely.

In ten years, my daily driver will be an EV with a <2.5 second 0-60 time, but I’ll also have a 427 s/c that comes out to play on sunny days. Hopefully the neighbors don’t mind the noise.
Looks like Tesla lowered it’s cars price a bit. Model3 is now 35K to 56K for performance. You can even get some money back when doing your taxes. (I know it does not apply to Ashful because he doesn’t believe a government should subsidize any industry )
 
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Following this thread as well as other comment boards result in always bringing me back to answer for myself "why do I like the Tesla Model 3 so much"? I've had a muscle car, a 1972 Chevelle SS 454 with headers, albeit about 50 years ago. What I remember most about the SS was the feeling of power, ability to reach over 100mph heading down a freeway ramp, and the throaty vibration of the car as I would sit with my foot on the brake at a red light, as well as the fact that I couldn't afford to buy gas to keep it fueled. Hence, after one year I sold the car.

And since that time, l simply looked at cars for their primary function of providing efficient and reliable family transportation. Consequently, first with a couple of Chevys, a Fiat, and a Dodge Aspen, from 1986 until 2018 the Toyota Camry was the car of choice: insanely reliable and inexpensive to maintain, mileage 30-35mpg, reasonably priced and simply a great car for transportation.

But then things changed, a little with the Bolt but especially with the Tesla. The idea of an electric car, the thought of reaching into the future of auto transportation while I still could, and my personal experience with solar PV and its ability to fuel a car, overwhelmed me. The only electric car that I wanted was an all electric, that is a BEV, no hybrid or PHEV, and with sufficient range to meet the great majority of my driving needs, summer and winter. The only car that met that criteria was the Chevy Bolt which I bought in February 2018. What was painful about this is that I would have purchased a Toyota, had Toyota an electric car to sell me. Also painful is that based on my long history with Toyota, I doubt I will a buy a Toyota ever again.

Then my wife researched the Tesla Model 3, read endless article, watched numerous video, and our car world begin to change in a major way. We placed our order in January 2019 and picked up our Model 3 at the end of March 2019. On a muscle car level, not all, more like a Piranha waiting in the weeds to silently devour the opposition. Features, more and better than anything else available. Technology, out of this world. And comfort with endless smoothness in every respect. The Tesla is a car which simply "IS." No need for pretense or glitz -- just do what you do and do it superbly.

Back to the question "why do I like the Tesla Model 3 so much"? Not much more to say. Just this: I was thinking earlier on this cold Sunday morning in northern MN, outside temp 30F, cold NW wind, overcast sky with snow flurries, what would be fun to do today? The answer came quickly, slip into the Tesla and go for a ride. And that's what I'm going to do. Excitement, fun, just from driving a Tesla.
 
Exactly. Anyone making excuses about EV tech potential (or even current capability) is going to find themselves on the wrong side of history. The only real obstacle at this point is cost and systemic growing pains (eg. loss of gas tax revenue and fast charging grid). I just can’t see spending $65k on a Tesla that is outperformed by equally nice (or better) gassers that can be had < $50k, today. Hopefully that will change real soon.

That said, I also fear what this means for those of us who love a roaring big-displacement engine, when the rest of the world has gone silent. Noise ordinances? Bans on driving ICE’s at certain times or locations? I can see this as a real possibility, having lived long enough to see things come to pass, that our parents would have considered equally unlikely.

In ten years, my daily driver will be an EV with a <2.5 second 0-60 time, but I’ll also have a 427 s/c that comes out to play on sunny days. Hopefully the neighbors don’t mind the noise.
Likewise, I've had my share of fast and loud cars and motorcycles and love that sound.
The newer geekier version of me though really loves the incredible acceleration and efficiency that an EV offers and I now find that the whine of EV electronics and motors get's me stirred up.

Flip side though: a guy farther out of town than us has open pipes on a diesel truck and seems to relish making as much noise as he can on his way to work at 7:00 am everyday. The sound is not pleasant. I really hate that guy.
 
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In ten years, my daily driver will be an EV with a <2.5 second 0-60 time, but I’ll also have a 427 s/c that comes out to play on sunny days. Hopefully the neighbors don’t mind the noise.
You don't need to wait 10 years from now. Just get a Tesla roadster and you have way better time 0-60 than 2.5 second. ;)
 
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Looks like Tesla lowered it’s cars price a bit. Model3 is now 35K to 56K for performance. You can even get some money back when doing your taxes. (I know it does not apply to Ashful because he doesn’t believe a government should subsidize any industry )

That’s great news. The appropriately optioned sport was about $65k this time a year ago. And I appreciate the call out, but you are taking my sentiment to an extreme level, I don’t think I ever said (or meant to say) I am 100% against all temporary subsidies, to get new tech off the ground and society pointed in a beneficial new direction. But I am not in favor of permanent subsidies, which create a false economy, technical solutions must ultimately stand on their own.
 
You don't need to wait 10 years from now. Just get a Tesla roadster and you have way better time 0-60 than 2.5 second. ;)
Yeah, that is one impressive spec. But you got $200,000 - $250,000 to plunk down on something that ugly? Be my guest. Too sterile for me. My car budget is about one-third that amount, anyway.

81c9bea744f64f4bf41521b8f64fe875.jpg
 
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Yeah, that is one impressive spec. But you got $200,000 - $250,000 to plunk down on something that ugly? Be my guest. Too sterile for me. My car budget is about one-third that amount, anyway.

81c9bea744f64f4bf41521b8f64fe875.jpg
We all have different likes and dislikes plus what it is affordable. Very important point the last one. Anyway there is many other car options that include comfort, luxury, technology, AWD etc and power. Many, with muscle cars, by the time they finish with all the updates/upgrades, they are well over in cost than a initial price of any all around cars and all what they have is just that a muscle car. Everything comes down what you like more than what you can afford sometimes.
 
n ten years, my daily driver will be an EV with a <2.5 second 0-60 time, but I’ll also have a 427 s/c that comes out to play on sunny days. Hopefully the neighbors don’t mind the noise.
Hyper performance in a car is hardly an important qualifier. It has little use in daily driving and can be a liability. Most folks want to get safely and reliably from point a to b. They are not looking to break their necks going for groceries, picking up the kids, or commuting to and from work on 40-50 mph roads. Many folks appreciate a quiet neighborhood too.
 
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I'm not sure how effective resistance heat will be at those damning temps. That's when you want a woodstove in the car. :cool: I'd rather have an efficient heat pump for most heating with a simple resistance heat backup. That would be ideal for our climate.
All these problems could be solved a lot easier than we think. Plus, a gasification system is considered carbon neutral. :)
RTR2XJR8.jpg
 
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Yeah carbon-neutral because he get your electricity from a coal-fired electric plant probably. I had a hybrid that got 43 miles a gallon I was happy with it. When I looked at an all-electric car and computer to how much I would save on gas I found out it would actually cost me the same or more per mile for gas. Like anything it's all marketing scam.
 
carbon-neutral because he get your electricity from a coal-fired electric plant probably.
Except many of us don't - we have a way cleaner grid in NY than most other states with <1% coal generation and overnight (off peak) close to 80% nuclear, hydro and wind. That's not counting those of us with solar PV panels that provide enough electricity for 100% of our driving needs.

When I looked at an all-electric car and computer to how much I would save on gas I found out it would actually cost me the same or more per mile for gas.
Then you did the math wrong. I used to drive a Chevy Sonic and reliably got 45 miles per gallon with gas priced at ~$2.70/gal (6 cents/mile). Electricity in NY state at 12 cents/kWh (NYSEG - 10 cents/kWh off-peak) at my average efficiency of 4.5 miles/kWh with my Chevy Bolt costs me 2 cents/mile or less. So I drove a super efficient gas car and my electric car is 1/3 the per mile cost. That is not counting the savings in maintenance, which many articles have estimated to be ~$1500/year savings over a gas car. So your hybrid is good at 43 miles/gallon, but a pure EV is cheaper to run. Sure, an EV costs more to purchase, but my savings per year will zero out the difference after about 5 years of driving (35,000 miles per year).

Like anything it's all marketing scam.
Except its not - see above.
 
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Then you did the math wrong. I used to drive a Chevy Sonic and reliably got 45 miles per gallon with gas priced at ~$2.70/gal (6 cents/mile). Electricity in NY state at 12 cents/kWh (NYSEG - 10 cents/kWh off-peak) at my average efficiency of 4.5 miles/kWh with my Chevy Bolt costs me 2 cents/mile or less.
Your electric is much cheaper than most, I suspect. Certainly cheaper than it is here, and I saw one recent post as high as $.32/kWh. Your conclusion likely still holds for the majority of us, but likely not for everyone, or by nearly the same amount.

Are you sure you're using your all-in price, as in how many dollars you actually paid for how many kWh you actually used, and not just the generation fee? Usually taxes and delivery at roughly double the generation rate.
 
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Except many of us don't - we have a way cleaner grid in NY than most other states with <1% coal generation and overnight (off peak) close to 80% nuclear, hydro and wind. That's not counting those of us with solar PV panels that provide enough electricity for 100% of our driving needs.


Then you did the math wrong. I used to drive a Chevy Sonic and reliably got 45 miles per gallon with gas priced at ~$2.70/gal (6 cents/mile). Electricity in NY state at 12 cents/kWh (NYSEG - 10 cents/kWh off-peak) at my average efficiency of 4.5 miles/kWh with my Chevy Bolt costs me 2 cents/mile or less. So I drove a super efficient gas car and my electric car is 1/3 the per mile cost. That is not counting the savings in maintenance, which many articles have estimated to be ~$1500/year savings over a gas car. So your hybrid is good at 43 miles/gallon, but a pure EV is cheaper to run. Sure, an EV costs more to purchase, but my savings per year will zero out the difference after about 5 years of driving (35,000 miles per year).


Except its not - see above.

Electricy is crazy expensive in Maine since nobody lives here. It's above $0.30/KWhr in some places.

Edit: I think he might even get his power from Bangor Hydro, which definitely isn't coal.

Double edit: I just went back and looked at some bills and the rate fluxuates significantly. For two people with 40 gal electric water heater our monthly bill is usually $125-150. In the winter it goes up since my wife is part fish and lives in the tub. Last winter I figured that it even costs me $0.55/hr to run my electric glass top range.
 
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Are you sure you're using your all-in price, as in how many dollars you actually paid for how many kWh you actually used, and not just the generation fee?
Yes, that's the all-in price here in NYSEG service territory in Central NY for generation, distribution and taxes, and I am buying a 100% solar and wind generated electricity. That does not include the fixed-rate fee (which should not be included in the per kWh price of electricity for purposes of the comparison stated earlier). It varies a little around that based on time of year, but that is basically the rate.

At a downstate NY condo, I pay 10 cents/kWh all-in for off-peak electricity - also NYSEG territory. That is even less costly. I do 100% of my charging there off-peak.

If you paid Con Ed's rates in NY City (arguably some of the highest in the country)
https://www.coned.com/en/save-money/energy-saving-programs/time-of-use
I could see paying 32 cents/kWh for generation and distribution (again, not including fixed monthly fee). But that is only during the peak summer months and only if you are on a peak/off-peak rate structure ("time of use") which then provides a substantial discount for off-peak (nighttime) use - half the daytime rate (all-in). So again, the rate is a lot less than what is commonly described, especially if you are charging during off-peak times.

My point is that if you want to believe that EVs are more expensive to fuel, then you can believe that. But you are just wrong. When someone who drives a car that gets 45 mpg replaces it with an EV, pays what I would consider to be an "average" price for electricity in the US, and spends 1/3 the previous amount on fuel, then EVs are not more expensive to fuel. Given that the average driver in the US drives a car that gets considerably less than 45 mpg, the average driver would save a lot more than 3x on fuel costs.

If your electricity price is 20 cents/kWh, then you save less, but you still save compared to gas. And if you drive a car with 30 mpg efficiency, you would save 3x on fuel with an EV compared to your 30 mpg gas car.

I will accept the argument that EVs cost more to purchase initially and that not everyone can afford them - fine with that. If you can pay it once up front, you will save additional money every year and the cost will net zero over the life of the car (at least in the case of my Chevy Bolt, but not for a $60k Tesla).
 
We agree on the conclusion, @DBoon, the EV is almost always going to be cheaper to fuel. We just don’t agree on the exact numbers, I can give specific examples where your 3x minimum estimate is a gross overstatement.

On a somewhat related tangent, I was recently looking at Volvo V60 wagons. Their R-design sport edition or luxury edition both ran $46k, but the plug in hybrid skips up 46% to $63k. That’s a lot better than the MSRP = $68k they had them at just a few weeks ago, but still... +46% for hybrid! You’re going to have to drive an awful lot of miles to earn back that $17,000 differential in the costs.

Likewise, you can buy many cars that will outperform a Model 3 dual motor on most performance characteristics, with a nicer interior to boot, for $15,000 less than the Tesla. Even at your optimistic differential costs, higher-end EV’s have not yet reached the point of financial justification, based on their fuel savings costs alone. That may also be true for more budget-conscious EV’s as well, I wouldn’t know.
 
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I can give specific examples where your 3x minimum estimate is a gross overstatement.
Hi Ashful, I gave my specific examples - please provide your specific examples. I'm willing to debate facts, and all I ask is that you offer your own for debate. I never called my 1/3 fuel cost a minimum, I just gave my real example and my belief that is was typical of what could be had.

On a somewhat related tangent, I was recently looking at Volvo V60 wagons. Their R-design sport edition or luxury edition both ran $46k, but the plug in hybrid skips up 46% to $63k. That’s a lot better than the MSRP = $68k they had them at just a few weeks ago, but still... +46% for hybrid! You’re going to have to drive an awful lot of miles to earn back that $17,000 differential in the costs.
I made no statements about the relative financial merits of hybrid vs. non-hybrid vehicles, so I'll just assume that this just belongs in another thread. But in that thread, my view of hybrids is that they are the most soul-sucking driving experience available, offering none of the fun of a stick-shift gas car or the brutally raw low-speed torque or efficiency of an EV. The Prius, for example, has to be one of the most dispiriting drives available. I wonder why anyone would tolerate this experience.

Likewise, you can buy many cars that will outperform a Model 3 dual motor on most performance characteristics, with a nicer interior to boot, for $15,000 less than the Tesla.
I hadn't realized that I was defending a Tesla's performance characteristics, list price, or its interior merits relative to other cars in its class. I thought I was just challenging the math of a previous poster who said that EVs didn't cost less to run and were all just a marketing scam.

Even at your optimistic differential costs
I posted my math - why not post yours? Mine is based on my real-life experiences, not a hypothetical worst-case scenario.
A 12 cent/kWh electricity rate is pretty average for the US (see https://www.electricchoice.com/electricity-prices-by-state/).
A 45 mpg achieved efficiency for an gasoline car is pretty far above the average - about 20 mpg above the average (see https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...my-rises-to-record-24-7-mpg-epa-idUSKBN1F02BX).
So it is hard to see how my real-life experience is an optimistic differential in terms of fuel costs. In my scenario, I pay 1/3 to fuel an EV to travel a mile versus a gas car.

Sure, we can equivocate about maintenance costs. I do know that I won't be paying $60 for a synthetic oil change every 5000 miles (that is $420/year at my rate of 35,000 miles per year), I won't be paying for brake pads, calipers, etc. probably ever. I'll never need a new muffler system ($300-400) or catalytic converter ($800-1000) or spark plugs. The list goes on. I'll need a new set of $600 tires every 50,000 miles or so, I'll need to rotate the tires every 8,000 miles or so - all things that a gas car needs as well. It's not hard to imagine a $1000 reduction in basic maintenance per year for an EV compared to a gas car, based on 35,000 miles of driving per year and based on a 5-6 year vehicle life (I've routinely put 200,000+ miles on my gas cars).

So, $1,400 a year in fuel costs plus $1,000 in maintenance costs per year = $14,400 in savings over a six year period. If I bought my Chevy Bolt with the same level of trim as my Sonic, I would have paid about $38k all-in (before incentives). Four years ago, I paid about $20k for my Sonic (on sale). I'm driving a nicer car with better performance and at near zero additional cost over the lifetime of the car. OK, I'm calling $3,600 "near zero", but it is not a massive amount of extra money considering the performance difference between the two cars.

higher-end EV’s have not yet reached the point of financial justification, based on their fuel savings costs alone
The debate in the original post was not about a higher-end EV having a lower total ownership cost based on fuel costs alone. Higher-end anything (cars, appliances, whatever) are as much about the vanity and brand-consciousness of those purchasing the higher-end thing and likely not about any real tangible or intangible benefit they provide. There are several lower-cost pure EVs on the market, and more are coming.

The debate was about whether an EV cost more per mile to fuel than an efficient electric car (the poster described a hybrid that got a respectable 43 mpg). It is clear - an EV never costs more to fuel compared to a gas car, probably typically costs 1/3 as much, and could cost even less than a 1/3 depending on what gas car you drove before. In the most extreme example I can think of (NY City northern suburbs) - 25 cents/kWh electricity (for generation and delivery, not including fixed monthly fees) with 4 miles/kWh (6.25 cents/mile) for an EV and a Prius driven gingerly (50 mpg) and $3.00 gas (6 cents/mile), the two are a wash. But if you charged overnight on an off-peak rate, your EV cost/mile would drop to 3 cents/mile.

So show me your real examples. I'm willing to listen to facts, but not to hypotheticals or incorrect math.
 
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Volvo has been discussing their new electric SUVs today.
 
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