UNIQUE ISSUES

[Avery]

Good day all !
I am not usually one for forums however I am at a loss, need to desperately diversify in my heating source, and no one I've spoken with seem competent. So in efforts to do my homework prior to a large, permanent purchase, I am here.
We have a 2000 sq ft home and a 1200 sq ft basement that we've made a main part of the house for home theater, exercise, play etc. The upper floors are currently heated from a hydro-air central heating system fueled by propane and the basement is not heated.
We are getting SLAUGHTERED in propane costs and desperately need to do something alternative. When looking into a wood stove option we have not gotten competent responses to our situation.
Our basement ceiling has spray foam insulation which works amazing but in this situation works against us. MY MAIN QUESTION is if we put a sized wood stove in the basement how are we going to get the heat dispersed through the entire home. I tested out the ceiling with a 65,000 btu propane heater in the basement on a cold winter day and got ZERO heat transfer through the floor. Some have spoke about leaving the basement door open, cutting even more vents in the floor (not appealing to me) or cycling the air handler fan to disperse. My hesitation is these are options and no one seems to have had the same situation and know what will work for sure and I'd rather not make such a sizable purchase and permanent installation if I am not 100% positive.

THANK YOU ALL IN ADVANCE SERIOUSLY THANK YOU, 750+ / mo for propane is horrific

 

[peakbagger]

A few questions.

Have you checked with your utility or state resources for an energy audit? The New England states are in the regional greenhouse gas initiative (short name "reggie"), the utilities get taxed for carbon use and the money is rebated to the states for energy savings projects.

Are your floors insulated from the basement or are they open joists. ( I expect its a finished basement with ceilings so its more of challenge).

I am not familiar with hydro air heating but guess its a hot water boiler with heater coils in the air ducts?

If the floor is open joists you can heat from the basement but unless the walls are insulated, much of that heat is sucked out into the ground. With closed ceilings you probably are looking at a wood boiler supplying hot water from the wood boiler to the hydro air system.

The other option is cutting holes in the floors most likely with fans in them. In theory this can work but its definitely hit or miss getting the air flow right. You also by code need to put fire dampers in every hole as if you are moving heat around well, you also can move flames around.

 

[Avery]

A few questions.

Have you checked with your utility or state resources for an energy audit? The New England states are in the regional greenhouse gas initiative (short name "reggie"), the utilities get taxed for carbon use and the money is rebated to the states for energy savings projects.

Are your floors insulated from the basement or are they open joists. ( I expect its a finished basement with ceilings so its more of challenge).

I am not familiar with hydro air heating but guess its a hot water boiler with heater coils in the air ducts?

If the floor is open joists you can heat from the basement but unless the walls are insulated, much of that heat is sucked out into the ground. With closed ceilings you probably are looking at a wood boiler supplying hot water from the wood boiler to the hydro air system.

The other option is cutting holes in the floors most likely with fans in them. In theory this can work but its definitely hit or miss getting the air flow right. You also by code need to put fire dampers in every hole as if you are moving heat around well, you also can move flames around.

THANKS!

I will check with the utility rebates.

Basement ceiling is open, you can see joists (I only painted them black)

Yes hydro air = propane boiler heats water pipes which cycle through the air handler to heat the air. I though of a wood furnace that would vent directly into existing duct work and use the air handler to cycle the air with the fan only but that would not heat the basement which we use a lot.

Hope this answers you

 

[peakbagger]

If the walls are insulated and with open joists you can heat the main floor of the house with a woodstove in the basement. It definitely is not perfect and you may still need to put in a few floor vents.

I expect other folks have their opinions so give it awhile to see what other ideas pop up.

 

[Avery]

If the walls are insulated and with open joists you can heat the main floor of the house with a woodstove in the basement. It definitely is not perfect and you may still need to put in a few floor vents.

I expect other folks have their opinions so give it awhile to see what other ideas pop up.

The basement walls are merely painted white. The issue is the joists are open as in not sheetrock but ARE insulated with spray foam, not allowing optimum heat pass if any at all..... That's the unique concern the spray foam holding the heat in the basement.

THANKS AGAIN !

 

[jotul8e2]

Creating open ventilation between the basement and main living areas is almost certainly a code violation, and not good idea even if legal. Moving warm air up through the stairway is alway problematic and really will require a cold air return somewhere somehow.

Since you already have a hydro forced air system, I would look into a wood fired boiler that could provide the hot water needed for your central system. It would be possible to install it with controls that allow your propane system to work as a backup.

 

[jetsam]

If the first floor joist airspace is sprayfoamed, you can either rip the foam out and then insulate the floors and walls (no fun), or plan to put the woodstove upstairs.

Honestly, this might be good for you. You're going to be carrying thousands of pounds of wood to this stove by hand every year. How many flights of stairs do you want to be part of that process?

(Also, the 'carrying thousands of pounds per year' bit is NOT hyperbole. One cord of dry oak might weigh 3500 pounds, and if wood is your primary heat source, you might burn 2 or 3 cords per year... so conservatively 7000#.)

 

[Avery]

If the first floor joist airspace is sprayfoamed, you can either rip the foam out and then insulate the floors and walls (no fun), or plan to put the woodstove upstairs.

Honestly, this might be good for you. You're going to be carrying thousands of pounds of wood to this stove by hand every year. How many flights of stairs do you want to be part of that process?

(Also, the 'carrying thousands of pounds per year' bit is NOT hyperbole. One cord of dry oak might weigh 3500 pounds, and if wood is your primary heat source, you might burn 2 or 3 cords per year... so conservatively 7000#.)

Appreciate all the feedback. Not sure I'm explaining this right...
Basement = 1200 sq ft, spray foam ceiling
1st floor = 1100 sq ft, just sheet rocked joists between 1 & 2 floor
2nd floor = 900 sq ft spray foam ceiling under roof (Cape)
Ideally we'd like to heat it all but the insulated basement ceiling and the fact that there's no duct work heating the basement causes the issues...

THANKS AGAIN !

 

[bholler]

Creating open ventilation between the basement and main living areas is almost certainly a code violation, and not good idea even if legal. Moving warm air up through the stairway is alway problematic and really will require a cold air return somewhere somehow.

Since you already have a hydro forced air system, I would look into a wood fired boiler that could provide the hot water needed for your central system. It would be possible to install it with controls that allow your propane system to work as a backup.

Why is it a bad idea? Yes you need to follow code but there is absolutly nothing inherentyly wrong with it.

 

[bholler]

Appreciate all the feedback. Not sure I'm explaining this right...
Basement = 1200 sq ft, spray foam ceiling
1st floor = 1100 sq ft, just sheet rocked joists between 1 & 2 floor
2nd floor = 900 sq ft spray foam ceiling under roof (Cape)
Ideally we'd like to heat it all but the insulated basement ceiling and the fact that there's no duct work heating the basement causes the issues...

THANKS AGAIN !

And your basement walls are uninsulated. You will need vents probably with fire dampers. But without insulation on the walls your results will be poor

 

[Simonkenton]

Even if the basement ceiling were not insulated, just plain wood, you would not get much heat going through that floor.
I know, because my house is a log cabin, the ceiling is giant 7x8 inch joists, real pretty, with 2 1/4 inches of wood above them.
I thought I would get a lot of heat transfer up through that floor but I don't. Get some through the stairwell.

Any way you slice it , tough to get heat from a basement up in to the house.

 

[coutufr]

I have a finished basement setup like yours. I like to keep the sound from the basement in the basement so insulation in the basement ceiling is a must. The wood stove is in a central location on the first floor and heats 1st and second floor easily, quietly and cheaply.

The basement is heated sparingly with baseboards. Running the fan of the furnace bring some of the warm air downstairs but it is not really efficient unless you run the fan 24/7.

 

[bholler]

I really dont see why so many of you are so against heating from the basement. I wouldnt do it any other way. Yes you need to allow for circulation. But it gives you nice even heat and warm floors. Honestly in our service area it is the most common stove location.

 

[begreen]

Where I lived in New England a fully insulated basement was uncommon. Properly located and fire-dampered vents, rare. And for me, if I had a choice I would insulate the sills and put the stove upstairs so that I can enjoy the fireview, direct bone warming heat, and not have to frequently go downstairs to the basement to check the state of the fire. I like the constant visual verification of a stove where all family members see it. It is one more safety step protecting from anyone spacing out leaving the air control open and getting distracted.

 

[bholler]

Where I lived in New England a fully insulated basement was uncommon. Properly located and fire-dampered vents, rare. And for me, if I had a choice I would insulate the sills and put the stove upstairs so that I can enjoy the fireview, direct bone warming heat, and not have to frequently go downstairs to the basement to check the state of the fire. I like the constant visual verification of a stove where all family members see it. It is one more safety step protecting from anyone spacing out leaving the air control open and getting distracted.

Well our basement like that of the op is finished space. And i have an auber upstairs to monitor the stove. I also have a fully insulated walkout basement. Yes it needs to be done right but when done right it works well. And you have a warm basement which is kind of important if it is living space

 

[jetsam]

I really dont see why so many of you are so against heating from the basement. I wouldnt do it any other way. Yes you need to allow for circulation. But it gives you nice even heat and warm floors. Honestly in our service area it is the most common stove location.

I'd be against it if my floor joists were packed full of spray foam and my basement floors and walls were uninsulated.

 

[bholler]

I'd be against it if my floor joists were packed full of spray foam and my basement floors and walls were uninsulated.

Well yes but if it was me and i had an unheated basement i wanted to use as living space i would adress those issues and put a stove down there. I insulated the basement in my last house and improved the insulation in the basement of my new one.

 

[begreen]

Well yes but if it was me and i had an unheated basement i wanted to use as living space i would adress those issues and put a stove down there. I insulated the basement in my last house and improved the insulation in the basement of my new one.

Many old basements may not be suitable for a living space for a number of reasons. Low ceiling height made worse by plumbing and duct runs, dampness, leaks or occasional flooding, rough stone walls, dirt floor, negative pressure are some common basement issues.

 

[Dustin]

Easy solution.

Put a large wood stove in your main upstairs living space.

Then, put a smaller wood stove OR a pellet stove in your basement, use only when you’re using the space.

You won’t heat your entire house with one stove, based on your layout.

 

[bholler]

Many old basements may not be suitable for a living space for a number of reasons. Low ceiling height made worse by plumbing and duct runs, dampness, leaks or occasional flooding, rough stone walls, dirt floor, negative pressure are some common basement issues.

Yes some basements have those issues and others dont. I am not saying it maskes sense for everyone to heat from tge basement. Just that it can work very well and it is pretty common in some areas.

 

[bholler]

Easy solution.

Put a large wood stove in your main upstairs living space.

Then, put a smaller wood stove OR a pellet stove in your basement, use only when you’re using the space.

You won’t heat your entire house with one stove, based on your layout.

Why not? Otger tgan the spray foamed floor i dont see an issue.

 

[illini81]

+1 for stove on main level. I have a 2400 sqft house with a 1200 sqft finished, insulated basement. I went back and forth on whether to put the stove in the basement or upstairs. We ended up putting it on the main level. On its own it can heat our 1st and 2nd floor for most of the winter. If we put it in the basement, we would have been asking it to heat 3600 sqft instead of 2400 sqft - probably wouldn't have been successful.

I skimmed through the thread, so I might have missed it - are you open to putting a stove on the 1st floor? If so, my vote would be for putting a stove on the 1st floor in the immediate future, heating the basement by some interim means (electric baseboard or something), and then adding a wood stove to the basement later on.

If you have never heated with wood before, I think you will gain a lot from having the stove in your main living area. It's very helpful to be able to visually see what the stove is doing throughout the stages of the burn.

 

[Knots]

My stove is in the basement and I just leave the door open at the top and the heat drifts up. I can tape a piece of single-ply TP to the top of the doorway and watch the air movement.

 

[Avery]

Easy solution.

Put a large wood stove in your main upstairs living space.

Then, put a smaller wood stove OR a pellet stove in your basement, use only when you’re using the space.

You won’t heat your entire house with one stove, based on your layout.

Can I stack them over each other (basement /1st floor) and use one stainless steel chimney?

 

[Dustin]

Can I stack them over each other (basement /1st floor) and use one stainless steel chimney?

Unfortunately no, one chimney per appliance.

The biggest question here is, where do you spend MOST of your time.

I wrestled with your exact same scenario. My home layout isn’t set up to heat primarily with wood unless I did two stoves. I did that at my old house, and didn’t really want to do it again.

So, here, I put a wood stove in the hardest, coldest place I have in my house, my finished (insulated) basement. It doesn’t do a damn thing to help heat the upstairs, maybe warms the floor a little? But it’s there because I can make my finished basement as warm as I want, on demand, when I’m down there watching a movie..etc.


When I’m not down there, the stove is cold.

For the rest of the house, I heat using a forced air heat pump set to 68.

So, my point is you don’t have to do both appliances as wood, there are other options