Upgrade 30-NC to Ideal Steel?

[CO burner]

Firstly, I want to thank everyone that contributes to the forums ... it is by far the best source for wood burning info I have found.

Long story short : Our 30-NC is cooking us out of the house! It is a great stove and cranks out heat for 4-6 hours, but I can't keep a clean-ish burn going without the living area getting up to 77-79 degrees and burn times are shorter than ideal. Will I be able to low/slow burn the IS and get the clean stack and burn times I want without having to leave a window open?

Long Story: With a surprise addition to the family pending, we were in a crunch to find a larger house. We ended up in a well built 2000 sq' house built in 2008. It had a 1979 VC Resolute installed and the chimney was a mess. I gave the stack and stove what I thought at the time was a thorough cleaning. The VC wasn't in great shape and I replaced cracked glass and all exterior gaskets. After a month of burning I was convinced that something wasn't right with the stove. After tearing apart the whole system, I found that the storm collar hadn't been sealed, water had run down the pipe and into the stove. The whole horizontal burn chamber was packed with a mixture of rust and creosote and the 2 45's in the pipe were so thin that I'm amazed I didn't punch through them with the brush. So now it was time for a whole new system. I was all set on an IS until I called and found out about their backlog so I found the 30-NC for $650 at the local do it yourself store (thanks to the reviews it got here) and upgraded from single wall to DVL pipe. I was pretty sure that it would be too much stove and I was right. I have split more kindling and started more fires from cold than I would care to admit. With a 3 year old and a baby born in October it is a lot to keep up with. Between making coffee, breakfast, changing diapers, warming bottles, and trying to keep up with the stove, I can barely keep up in the morning. I dream of 12+ hour burns that don't run us out of the house.

So here's where I'm at now. I have a friend who wants the Englander whenever I'm ready to give it up. I need longer burn times with lower peak temps. My wife needs a glass front and pretty flames for ambiance (likely the reason we ended up with a surprise 2nd kiddo). I would have installed an IS if it was available when I needed it, but I'm now wondering if it is going to be too much stove. I love the idea of the BK stoves, but the wife wants the pretty flames on occasion. Everyone that is going to tell me to build more, smaller, hotter fires needs to try living in my house with my 3 attention intensive but wonderful ladies (4 months, 3 years, and a sleep deprived breastfeeding wife). Is there something else out there that I'm missing? Are there that few hybrid stoves on the market? I've seen rumor of Woodstock's new hybrid, but I can't wait beyond the next burning season. Advice, help, and recommendations would be greatly appreciated.

 

[Charles1981]

Both have a smaller firebox. IS is slightly Larger then the Princess.

I think the princess would honestly be the most ideal stove for you situation. There is still a chance the IS could heat you out of the house even running on its lowest settings. Those are probably the two best stoves that could give you 12+ hours of burning without blowing you away but they are still big stoves that put out a bit of heat.

I think the best situation for you is maybe even a slightly smaller catalyst stove in the 2-2.5cu ft range except those in real life need to be re-loaded every 7-9 hours realistically.

There is also the BK ashford, sirroco, and chinook 20's line that are 1.8cu ft in size. Also probably good choices may very well get you loading twice daily only but I believe they are going to require a much more expensive chimney to run.

I think others may be able to chime in more on good suggestions though.

 

[Huntindog1]

Both are good stoves for what your looking for so it basically comes down to price and looks. Remember operating a stove at more realistic heat outputs , the stoves have similar burn times when comparing cat stoves with cats stoves or non-cat vs no-cat EPA stoves. Also rememeber burn times are based on the same firebox size as having more wood will get you more burn times.

Your on the right track to get a Cat stove for a lower output over a longer period of time.

For anyone lurking it comes down too, if your burning wood to save money, some stoves and don't forget the flue system can take 6 or 7 years to recoup your investment and start saving money.

 

[Highbeam]

There is also the BK ashford, sirroco, and chinook 20's line that are 1.8cu ft in size.

In a freak anomaly of design, the smaller 20 series stoves actually produce more heat on low than the standard 30 sized stoves. With the 20 series you get shorter burn times and more heat per hour. I can't recommend a 20 series stove unless you live in such a tiny house that the couple inches less of physical size is extremely important.

2000 SF in CO. I too own an NC30 and a BK princess cat stove. I had both burning last night and you are right that the NC30 is a pretty big stove that doesn't burn low and slow very well compared to a cat stove. Cat stoves are able to burn low and slow for those long refill intervals. The BK line is great at low and slow and is certainly able to make flames when/if you want it to.

You asked specifically about moving from nc30 to an IS and of all the current non-BK stoves out there, for full time heating of 2000 SF in CO, I would totally recommend the IS. Most people that have them love them. The low burn rate burn times appear to be a huge leap ahead of what the NC30 can do. If BK went out of business, that IS is what I would replace my BK with when it burns out.

 

[begreen]

In the Woodstock line there's also the non-hybrid Fireview for low catalytic burns and a softer, less radiant heat than the 30NC.

 

[Tenn Dave]

Firstly, I want to thank everyone that contributes to the forums ... it is by far the best source for wood burning info I have found.

Long story short : Our 30-NC is cooking us out of the house! It is a great stove and cranks out heat for 4-6 hours, but I can't keep a clean-ish burn going without the living area getting up to 77-79 degrees and burn times are shorter than ideal. Will I be able to low/slow burn the IS and get the clean stack and burn times I want without having to leave a window open?

Long Story: With a surprise addition to the family pending, we were in a crunch to find a larger house. We ended up in a well built 2000 sq' house built in 2008. It had a 1979 VC Resolute installed and the chimney was a mess. I gave the stack and stove what I thought at the time was a thorough cleaning. The VC wasn't in great shape and I replaced cracked glass and all exterior gaskets. After a month of burning I was convinced that something wasn't right with the stove. After tearing apart the whole system, I found that the storm collar hadn't been sealed, water had run down the pipe and into the stove. The whole horizontal burn chamber was packed with a mixture of rust and creosote and the 2 45's in the pipe were so thin that I'm amazed I didn't punch through them with the brush. So now it was time for a whole new system. I was all set on an IS until I called and found out about their backlog so I found the 30-NC for $650 at the local do it yourself store (thanks to the reviews it got here) and upgraded from single wall to DuraTech pipe. I was pretty sure that it would be too much stove and I was right. I have split more kindling and started more fires from cold than I would care to admit. With a 3 year old and a baby born in October it is a lot to keep up with. Between making coffee, breakfast, changing diapers, warming bottles, and trying to keep up with the stove, I can barely keep up in the morning. I dream of 12+ hour burns that don't run us out of the house.

So here's where I'm at now. I have a friend who wants the Englander whenever I'm ready to give it up. I need longer burn times with lower peak temps. My wife needs a glass front and pretty flames for ambiance (likely the reason we ended up with a surprise 2nd kiddo). I would have installed an IS if it was available when I needed it, but I'm now wondering if it is going to be too much stove. I love the idea of the BK stoves, but the wife wants the pretty flames on occasion. Everyone that is going to tell me to build more, smaller, hotter fires needs to try living in my house with my 3 attention intensive but wonderful ladies (4 months, 3 years, and a sleep deprived breastfeeding wife). Is there something else out there that I'm missing? Are there that few hybrid stoves on the market? I've seen rumor of Woodstock's new hybrid, but I can't wait beyond the next burning season. Advice, help, and recommendations would be greatly appreciated.

There is a lot of great information here on Hearth.com about the IS, but most of the beta testers and owners are on another site. Do a search on google for IS forum posts. There is tons of information out there from current owners.

 

[pdxdave]

The IS should give you better burn times than what you are reporting, I can't guarantee it won't run you out of the house though, it's a pretty big box so even if you cruise it at 350-400 it will still put alot of heat in your place which is probably pretty well insulated being it's newer construction. Also I don't know how to compare it's heat output to the NC30.

 

[JA600L]

If you really don't need a lot of heat and have quality firewood, there is a good chance the Ideal Steel could give you 20+ hour burns. There are a few people out there who do this on a daily basis. I do 12 + hour burns everyday.

The Ideal Steel has great low end control. It has no problem running all day with a black box. The glass will turn black, but a burn with the flames will clean it right up.

You really need a good flue system and properly dried wood to get the most out of this stove.

 

[pdxdave]

If you really don't need a lot of heat and have quality firewood, there is a good chance the Ideal Steel could give you 20+ hour burns. There are a few people out there who do this on a daily basis. I do 12 + hour burns everyday.

The Ideal Steel has great low end control. It has no problem running all day with a black box. The glass will turn black, but a burn with the flames will clean it right up.

You really need a good flue system and properly dried wood to get the most out of this stove.

I don't completely agree on the flue system part - I'd consider my setup to be marginal, 2 foot horizontal out of rear vent into a 15' flex liner in an exterior masonry chimney - yet the stove still performs excellent at all burn levels

 

[Barnett]

whats a black box ?

 

[1ruralmailman]

baisically the wood is sitting in a state that appears as though the fire is out.there is usually a small orange glow of coals,with little or no visible flame,the smoldering smoke is being ate by the cat,which in turn makes the heat.

 

[Barnett]

ah a damped down cat stove dwn for a long burn thanks ..

 

[JA600L]

I don't completely agree on the flue system part - I'd consider my setup to be marginal, 2 foot horizontal out of rear vent into a 15' flex liner in an exterior masonry chimney - yet the stove still performs excellent at all burn levels

That's why I said good not excellent. Your still better then venting it into a large exterior masonry chimney only.

 

[drz1050]

Yes the BKs can burn lower than the IS, but the IS still can burn much lower and longer than the 30-NC... I think you'd be happy with it, and although the BKs can have a nice fireshow if you turn the stat up, I think it'll be easier to have a low rolling fire with the IS- gotta keep wifey happy!

You said it's a new house for you.. how's your wood situation?

 

[CO burner]

If I could cruise my 30-nc at 350-400 for 12+ hours, I'd be tickled pink. It just seems to like 650 or nothing. The only difference between a small load and a fully packed firebox seems to be burn times. I've burned quite a few different stoves, some EPA tube stoves and quite a few older boat anchors, but have never experienced the instant strip down to your underwear and open all the windows type of heat that the englander produces. Has anyone owned both stoves for a true comparison. Having no experience with cat stoves, I'm not sure how the heat from a cat burn compares and it seems like most IS owners push theirs a little harder than I'd ideally be running it. We do get the occasional cold snap with lows below zero so the extra horsepower of a 3+ cf firebox would be nice, but most of the time lows are in the teens at most. The quirky industrial look of a basic model IS would fit nicely at our house. I just want to be confident it can be run cleanly for extended burns at 350 to 400 without stalling out.

BKs aren't an option locally and the folks at one local stove shop looked at me like I was from Mars when I asked if they could recommend catalytic stove. The other shop has VC cat stoves but they appear to be more maintenance intensive. After my last experience with what some folks have said was one of the good VCs, I'm leery.

There were multiple mentions of upgrading the flue system. With 15ish interior feet of new double walled DVL connected to 12 feet DuraVent chimney I'm not sure what else I could do.

The wood supply is about as good as it gets for what's available in the region. 4 cords of dead standing beetle killed spruce, some fir and 2 cords of scrub oak. What I'm burning now has been CSS since fall of 13. I don't have the luxury of all those exotic hardwood fuels I read about everyone else burning.

Thanks for the IS owners chiming in. I'll likely be making the call to order next week unless a more definitive timeline on Woodstock's 3rd hybrid suddenly appears.

 

[BrotherBart]

Are you burning that 30 loaded N/S or E/W. E/W gives me nice long clean burns in the 450-500 range easing down to 300-ish over time.

 

[CO burner]

Are you burning that 30 loaded N/S or E/W. E/W gives me nice long clean burns in the 450-500 range easing down to 300-ish over time.

Every time I try to put it it bed with a e/w load I wake up to smoked up glass. All my wood was cut for a smaller stove so what I have had the best success with is a n/s load in front with oak wedged e/w in the back. Seems to leave the cleanest glass and best coal bed.

 

[Isaiah53]

I suspect much of your low burn time is due to the nature of your wood supply. I am burning a lot of the same Colorado soft woods and they burn fast. The Douglas Fir may do a little better but that beetle kill pine burns very fast. I run my BK Ashford 30 on the lowest setting all of the time to keep my 1000 ft2 lower floor at about 71-73 F. I could probably get 15-18 hours, but I find it easier to just reload it with 2-3 splits when I go to bed and again in the morning and keep it in the active zone at all times. Just load the wood and close the by-pass damper. There is no way I could get the 24-30 hour burns that others report with hardwoods. I will admit I probably have a lot of draft with about 28 feet of interior chimney. I am sure the IS will be an improvement over the NC-30, but I would not expect to get the 12 hour burn times others are reporting with your wood supply. I would guess 7-9 hours would be a more reasonable expectation.

It is too bad you cannot get a local source for the BK, because I think you would find it a very easy stove to operate, provided you have enough draft, and it definitely would not heat you out of your house.

 

[JA600L]

I'm not sure how the Ideal Steel will do with soft woods like that. My softwood experience is limited to silver maple. I was surprised how well it burnt that.

I think a cat stove is exactly what you need. With all those faster burning softwoods, you need a stove that can release the BTUS slower. My experience with my Quadra Fire was similar. It had too much of a peaked burn.

 

[pdxdave]

I'm not sure how the Ideal Steel will do with soft woods like that. My softwood experience is limited to silver maple. I was surprised how well it burnt that.

I think a cat stove is exactly what you need. With all those faster burning softwoods, you need a stove that can release the BTUS slower. My experience with my Quadra Fire was similar. It had too much of a peaked burn.

All I burn is softwood - doug fir, alder, cottonwood, pine. A well packed box puts out good heat for 12 hours, and easy relight 16-18. In this milder weather I just load it maybe 3/4 once in the evening and house is still warm in the morning, then decide if I want to add a partial load in the morning.
To clarify, I mean coming down to about 250-300 at 12 hours.

 

[JA600L]

I suspect much of your low burn time is due to the nature of your wood supply. I am burning a lot of the same Colorado soft woods and they burn fast. The Douglas Fir may do a little better but that beetle kill pine burns very fast. I run my BK Ashford 30 on the lowest setting all of the time to keep my 1000 ft2 lower floor at about 71-73 F. I could probably get 15-18 hours, but I find it easier to just reload it with 2-3 splits when I go to bed and again in the morning and keep it in the active zone at all times. Just load the wood and close the by-pass damper. There is no way I could get the 24-30 hour burns that others report with hardwoods. I will admit I probably have a lot of draft with about 28 feet of interior chimney. I am sure the IS will be an improvement over the NC-30, but I would not expect to get the 12 hour burn times others are reporting with your wood supply. I would guess 7-9 hours would be a more reasonable expectation.

It is too bad you cannot get a local source for the BK, because I think you would find it a very easy stove to operate, provided you have enough draft, and it definitely would not heat you out of your house.

I'm just curious why you think Blaze King will go 15-18 hours and the Ideal only 7-9? The Ideal Steel can burn just as low and slow as Blaze King. The only difference is Blaze King has a primary thermostat and Woodstock uses automatic catalyst air.

 

[BrotherBart]

What is "automatic catalyst air"?

 

[JA600L]

http://blog.woodstove.com/2013/09/under-hood-4-catalyst-air-we-apply-old.html

On the early production models this control would flutter and give an alarm clock noise on initial fire up as it opened. Woodstock addressed the problem right away and upgraded the part.

I decided to leave the original one in my stove as I have not heard the noise since October when the stove was cold last. I have the new part on the shelf if I ever decide to replace it. I'm sure anybody who has bought the Ideal Steel in the last 4 months or so has the upgraded part.

 

[Highbeam]

All I burn is softwood - doug fir, alder, cottonwood, pine. A well packed box puts out good heat for 12 hours, and easy relight 16-18. In this milder weather I just load it maybe 3/4 once in the evening and house is still warm in the morning, then decide if I want to add a partial load in the morning.
To clarify, I mean coming down to about 250-300 at 12 hours.

I burn the same low btu woods and have no problem getting 24 hour burns before the cat goes inactive.

 

[pdxdave]

I burn the same low btu woods and have no problem getting 24 hour burns before the cat goes inactive.

Cool story.