Who to buy electricity other than National Grid??

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My wife bonged it for $1.19 at Kroger 2 days ago. I've switched up to mid grade it's cheap enough now.

The East Coast and Nerw England is pretty (my wife is from North Jersey) but it's to restrictive to live comfortably. Too many regulations and too many hoops to jump through. I guess if I live there all my life, I'd accept it as normal but I don't and can't and thats not meant to be an insult at all, just the way I see it and read about it here.....
 
Hell, we can't even make up our minds to get OIL from you!!!! You might as well send the electrons to China too!!! We're beyond help down here!

+10 on that.......
 
My wife bonged it for $1.19 at Kroger 2 days ago. I've switched up to mid grade it's cheap enough now.

The East Coast and Nerw England is pretty (my wife is from North Jersey) but it's to restrictive to live comfortably. Too many regulations and too many hoops to jump through. I guess if I live there all my life, I'd accept it as normal but I don't and can't and thats not meant to be an insult at all, just the way I see it and read about it here.....

$1.19 ??????? With their discount, right?? :)
 
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$1.19 ??????? With their discount, right?? :)

Yep. I don't play the Kroger thing, for one, my wife does the shopping so 'borrowing' the card is an exercise in futility anyway. I figure Kroger still comes out ahead or they wouldn't do it. They are in business to make money afterall.

I can drive 15 miles south into Ohio and usually pay 10 cents less than here anyway and I work down there so no biggie. I have her drive on trips and leave my buggy in the driveway....
 
Smoke and mirrors my friend! The best thing is within 15 miles of my home there is hydro plant that they are converting to gas, 2 wind farms and about 20 solar farms, one is 140MW, largest in Canada! Delivery charge, I should buy a long extension cord.
Why would they take out a renewable source of energy and replace it with a fossil fueled and non renewable source??? Sounds like the only reason is $$$. And then how can generating with a source that has a fuel cost compete with one that has no fuel cost and reliable machinery?
 
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That makes no economic sense to me either. The cost of hydro power is all in the infrastructure and machinery. After that cost is realized, the power generation is basically free excepting maintenance and pending machinery upgrades and thats the most economical way to fly, whereas, power generation from NG always has built in cost of fuel. If I could harness the stream out back of my home with a dam, penstock and turbine turning a genny, I'd do it in a minute, it's free (after the initial equipment is paid for). Problem is, it's so flat here, I'd have to dam it up a mile up stream to get enough fall to spin something large enough to light a flashlight.....:)
 
Yep. I don't play the Kroger thing, for one, my wife does the shopping so 'borrowing' the card is an exercise in futility anyway. I figure Kroger still comes out ahead or they wouldn't do it. They are in business to make money afterall.

I can drive 15 miles south into Ohio and usually pay 10 cents less than here anyway and I work down there so no biggie. I have her drive on trips and leave my buggy in the driveway....
That's what I figured. My price was WITHOUT any discount!!! :)

If I drive 30 miles from my home town to Krogers the gas is $.60 cheaper IN THE SAME STATE! Now who is ripping people off?
 
That makes no economic sense to me either. The cost of hydro power is all in the infrastructure and machinery. After that cost is realized, the power generation is basically free excepting maintenance and pending machinery upgrades and thats the most economical way to fly, whereas, power generation from NG always has built in cost of fuel. If I could harness the stream out back of my home with a dam, penstock and turbine turning a genny, I'd do it in a minute, it's free (after the initial equipment is paid for). Problem is, it's so flat here, I'd have to dam it up a mile up stream to get enough fall to spin something large enough to light a flashlight.....:)
And the government would shut you down for no good reason other than you are competition.
 
Be verrrrrrrry careful of 3rd party suppliers and their honeymoon rates. I got royally screwed by Ambit energy as my electric supplier. After a year of a locked in rate, they changed us without any notice to variable rate. Went from $.07 KWH to $.21 KWH average. If I would have stayed with local supplier (NYSEG) rate wouldn't have went over $.10 KWH.
When one of your friends or neighbors approaches you with Ambit savings, hold your wallet real tight and run!
 
You guys are preaching to the qu my government
Why would they take out a renewable source of energy and replace it with a fossil fueled and non renewable source??? Sounds like the only reason is $$$. And then how can generating with a source that has a fuel cost compete with one that has no fuel cost and reliable machinery?
Sorry, the company was called Hydro one, the plant runs on oil and they are building a new one beside it that runs on NG!
 
If anyone need it, our province have a gross surplus of cheap hydro-powered electricity to pawn to the highest bidder! :)

From what I understand, not so much in the winter, though. I was speaking to a guy from Kingsley Falls and he said the surplus is lower in the winter due to a lot of people using electric resistance (baseboard) heat. We could never afford to do that here. I see you're in Shawinigan......nice town. I bought some of the equipment out of the paper mill there when I worked at a previous job.
 
You guys are preaching to the qu my government

Sorry, the company was called Hydro one, the plant runs on oil and they are building a new one beside it that runs on NG!
Mark my words, that new NG one will result in increased rates because they are not efficient.
 
From what I understand, not so much in the winter, though.
Well, you may be right! They are asking us to limit our consumption in peak hours when it's really cold!
 
There are some basic energy misconceptions in this thread

There are several ways to generate power with natural gas.

1.Convert an old steam boiler with an associated steam turbine from coal, oil or wood to natural gas. The overall efficiency of fuel to electric power with natural gas varies from lower with oil to somewhat higher than coal or wood. Overall at best 35% fuel to power efficiency. These plants take 8 to 12 hours to go from cold to full output and every time they are cycled on and off, the required maintenance goes up and reliability goes down. These used to be the base load power for the country. Unlike natural gas, when running on coal, oil or wood the owner buys the fuels in advance and stockpiles the fuel for use at a later date, they can run from day to weeks and are not dependent on limited pipeline capacity. Natural gas generates far less CO2 than fossil fuels so environmentally most regulatory bodies are strongly encouraging natural gas conversions

2. Burn natural gas in jet turbine with a generator on the shaft of the jet turbine. Send the hot exhaust gas from the turbine into the air . This configuration is called a "peaker". The efficiency is in the mid thirties up to forty percent. These plants are fast and cheap to build and don't take up much room. There are fleets of these that can be driven on site and can generate power in days. They are generally set up to burn liquid fuel (oil) in addition to natural gas. Their typical use is for short term temporary power. They can go from cold to full output in as little as five minutes. They generally are located near the load and have a large oil tank next to them so that they can start immediately in an emergency, they cant run on natural gas very often as in order to get large volumes of natural gas, the owner has to order it a day in advance. They are generally only used to balance out short term imbalances on the gird and for natural disasters. Unfortunately many of the mainstream renewables, like wind and solar are not reliable as they cannot stockpile wind or sun so the unfortunate side effect of renewables is a large fleet of new peakers.

3. The final way to burn natural gas for power only which is the vast majority of new generation in new England is with a combined cycle power plant. Natural gas is burned in one or more natural gas turbines which have generators hooked up to their shaft. The hot exhaust is then routed to a Heat Recovery Steam Generator (HRSG) and then the steam is routed to a steam turbine that can accept several pressures of steam. As the heat is being recovered, the turbines are optimized to burn at a very high combustion temperature and the overall fuel to power efficiency can be over 50%. These plants are the least cost to run and many can be run like a peaker if there is short term need for power. The efficiency goes up as the plant gets bigger so these are still very large capital intensive plants. One plant I worked on in Brampton Ontario was close to 1 billion dollars. In general they are quite flexible on output. The major downside is that these plants don't have a way of stockpiling natural gas so they are dependent on the gas line. On a day forward basis when there is more capacity in the pipelines, these combined cycle plants supply much of the power in New England but when the demand for power, heating and industrial use exceeds the pipeline capacity, something has to give. The residential heating customer pays a premium in the winter to guarantee that houses don't run out heat, so the industrial and power uses go into a bidding war for the gas capacity and the price of the gas skyrockets to the point where the combined cycle plants are no longer the cheapest option. In that case, any power plant that has a stockpile of fuel like a coal plant, biomass plant, ponded storage hydro or a peaker with big oil tank, can make a lot of money selling power at rates 10 to 20 times the normal rates and that gets factored in what everyone pays for power. The system is lot more complex than this simple explanation but this is rough approximation.

4. There is fourth option that industry uses that is the most efficient. Its called Combined Heat and Power. Industrial users like papermills need both power and steam to run their processes. In most large operations, the owner has a high pressure boiler and then generates some power by running the high pressure steam through a backpressure steam turbine which acts in place of a pressure reducing valve and then the process uses the resulting low pressure steam. The efficiency calculation is now bit more complex as there is one fuel input divided by the combination of the electric power produced and the thermal value of the steam. The efficiency can vary significantly but is almost always better than buying power and just generating steam. This process has been improved substantially by replacing the boiler with a gas turbine. It can be even more efficient than even a combined cycle as the fuel is used three ways, the turbine generates power, the resultant high pressure steam is run through a back pressure steam turbine and then the low pressure steam is used in the industrial process. The overall fuel efficiency of the plant can routinely be over 60%. In some densely populated areas in Europe (and a couple of US cities), there are district heating systems and regulations in place where even fairly low temperature hot water can be used for building heat and the overall efficiency can be even higher.

By the way, the overall efficiency of any thermal system is governed by the Carnot Cycle http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carnot_cycle. The difference between the highest temp in the system and the lowest temp sets the maximum efficiency. Gas turbines produce the highest combustion temperatures so any cycle with a gas turbine has the potential for the highest efficiency if there is a use for the heat left over.

The other power generation on the rise in the news is hydro. There are two types of hydro electric (note Canadians confuse things as they refer to any power plant be it hydroelectric, natural gas, wood or coal as "hydro"). The large hydros tend to be ponded storage where there is a big lake upstream of the dam. The operator stores water until power is needed and they then start draining the storage. That's great for power production but not great for the animals and ecosystem in the upstream lake. These plants flood a lot of land and are extremely costly to build so unless the government subsidizes the construction it is costly and in the US there are very few large hydros being built. The last major project in New England was the Dickey Lincoln project canceled 30 years ago. There are also run of the river hydros where there is no storage, these produce power when the water flows but are somewhat predictable. They are a small but important part of the regions power but due to environmental issues many are being removed. Folks hear about Hydro Quebec with its offer to sell New England all the power we want. Even though the ratepayers in Quebec pay very low rates, the power sold to the US will not be so low. The Quebec ratepayers are paying for existing hydro plants that were built with heavy direct and indirect subsidies. The new hydro offered to the US is from new plants that would be built without as many subsidies and the Quebec ratepayers expect some of the profits will be used to reduce their rates. It is convenient for New England as it is "Not In my Backyard" but this level of power transmission over very long distances has significant potential for grid interruptions so New England ratepayers will need to pay for a lot of backup generation in case the transmission system from Northern Quebec fails . This is not theoretical, a yahoo with a rifle knocked out the main line from Quebec two years ago for a couple of days and southern Quebec has experienced several major outages when the transmission system from Northern Quebec failed. This type of transmission is also significantly impacted by solar flares and hard to secure. The other current issue is that quebec has a rule in effect that if there is power shortage, they cut off exports. This has already happened when there was a severe cold stretch in Quebec, the utilities basically cut off power sales to New England. Therefore when we need to power most it may not be there.

I have left nuclear out as its probably not going to happen in New England anytime soon, the plants that are still running will continue until some point they are shut down but barring a major reduction in cost to build new plant and a major shift in the publics opinion I don't see any new ones going in.

The power grid is the most complex machine on the planet and to get a handle on it even its basics is something that most folks have no hope of understanding. Politicians, activists and wall street all know that and realize that by proper PR they can shift public opinion in any direction.
 
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There are some basic energy misconceptions in this thread

There are several ways to generate power with natural gas.

1.Convert and old steam boiler with an associated steam turbine from coal, oil or wood to natural gas. The overall efficiency of fuel to electric power varies from lower with oil to somewhat higher than coal or wood. Overall at best 35% fuel to power efficiency. These plants take 8 to 12 hours to go from cold to full output and every time they are cycled on and off, the required maintenance goes up and reliability goes down. These used to be the base load power for the country. Unlike natural gas, when running on coal, oil or wood the owner buys the fuels in advance and stockpiles the fuel for use at a later date, they can run from day to weeks and are not dependent on limited pipeline capacity. Natural gas generates far less CO2 than fossil fuels so environmentally most regulatory bodies are strongly encouraging natural gas conversions

2. Burn natural gas in jet turbine with a generator on the shaft of the jet turbine. Send the hot exhaust gas from the turbine. This configuration is called a "peaker". The efficiency is in the mid thirties up to forty percent. These plants are fast and cheap to build and don't take up much room. There are fleets of these that can be driven on site and can generate power in days. They are generally set up to burn liquid fuel (oil) in addition to natural gas. Their typical use is for short term temporary power. They can go from cold to full output in as little as five minutes. They generally are located near the load and have a large oil tank next to them so that they can start immediately in an emergency, they cant run on natural gas very often as in order to get large volumes of natural gas, the owner has to order it a day in advance. They are generally only used to balance out short term imbalances on the gird and for natural disasters. Unfortunately many of the mainstream renewables, like wind and solar are not reliable as they can stockpile wind or sun so the unfortunate side effect of renewables is a large fleet of new peakers.

3. The final way to burn natural gas for power only which is the vast majority of new generation in new England is with a combined cycle power plant. Natural gas is burned in one or more natural gas turbines which have generators hooked up to their shaft. The hot exhaust is then routed to a Heat Recovery Steam Generator (HRSG) and then the steam is routed to a steam turbine that can accept several pressures of steam. As the heat is being recovered, the turbines are optimized to burn at a very high combustion temperature and the overall fuel to power efficiency can be over 50%. These plants are the least cost to run and many can be run as like a peaker if there is short term need for power. The efficiency goes up as the plant gets bigger so thse are still very large capital intensive plants. One plant I worked on in Brampton Ontario was close to 1 billion dollars. In general they are quite flexible on output. The major downside is that these plants don't have a way of stockpiling natural gas so they are dependent on the gas line. On a day forward basis when there is more capacity in the pipelines, these combined cycle plants supply much of the power in New England but when the demand for power heating and industrial use exceeds the pipeline capacity, something has to give. The residential heating customer pay a premium in the winter to guarantee that houses don't run out heat, so the industrial and power uses go into a bidding war for the gas capacity and the price of the gas skyrockets to the point where the combined cycle plants are no longer the cheapest option. In that case, any power plant that has a stockpile of fuel like a coal plant, biomass plant, ponded storage hydro or a peaker with big oil tank, can make a lot of money selling power at rates 10 to 20 times the normal rates and that gets factored in what everyone pays for power. The system is lot more complex than this simple explanation but this is rough approximation.

4. There is fourth option that industry uses that is the most efficient. Its called Combined Heat and Power. Industrial users like papermills need both power and steam to run their processes. In most large operations, the owner has a high pressure boiler and then generates some power by running the high pressure steam through a backpressure steam turbine which acts in place of a pressure reducing valve and then the process uses the resulting low pressure steam. The efficiency calculation is now bit more complex as there is one fuel input divided by the combination of the electric power produced and the thermal value of the steam. The efficiency can vary significantly but is almost always better than buying power and just generating steam. This process has been improved substantially by replacing the boiler with a gas turbine. It can be even more efficient than even a combined cycle as the fuel is used three ways, the turbine generates power, the resultant high pressure steam is run through a back pressure steam turbine and then the low pressure steam is used in the industrial process. The overall fuel efficiency of plant can routinely be over 60%. In some densely populated areas in Europe (and a couple of US cities), there are district heating systems and regulations in place where even fairly low temperature hot water can be used for building heat and the overall efficiency can be even higher.

By the way, the overall efficiency of any thermal system is governed by the Carnot Cycle http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carnot_cycle. The difference between the highest temp in the system and the lowest temp sets the maximum efficiency. Gas turbines produce the highest combustion temperatures so any cycle with a gas turbine has the potential for the highest efficiency.

The other power generation on the rise in the news is hydro. There are two types of hydro electric (note Canadians confuse things as they refer to any power plant be it hydroelectric, natural gas, wood or coal as "hydro"). The large hydros tend to be ponded storage where there is a big lake upstream of the dam. The operator stores water until power is needed and they then start draining the storage. That's great for power production but not great for the animals and ecosystem in the upstream lake. These plants flood a lot of land and are extremely costly to build so unless the government subsidizes the construction it is costly and in the US there are very few large hydros being built. The last major project in New England was the Dickey Lincoln project canceled 30 years ago. There are also run of the river hydros where there is no storage, these produce power when the water flows but are somewhat predictable. They are a small but important part of the regions power but due to environmental issues many are being removed. Folks hear about Hydro Quebec with its offer to sell New England all the power we want. Even though the ratepayers in Quebec pay very low rates, the power sold to the US will not be so low. The Quebec ratepayers are paying for existing hydro plants that were built with heavy direct and indirect subsidies. The new hydro offered to the US is from new plants that would be built without as many subsidies and the Quebec ratepayers expect some of the profits will be used to reduce their rates. It is convenient for New England as it is "Not In my Backyard" but this level of power transmission over very long distances has significant potential for grid interruptions so New England ratepayers will need to pay for a lot of backup generation in case the transmission system from Northern Quebec fails . This is not theoretical, a yahoo with a rifle knocked out the main line from Quebec two years ago for a couple of days and southern Quebec has experienced several major outages when the transmission system from Northern Quebec failed. This type of transmission is also significantly impacted by solar flares and hard to secure. The other current issue is that quebec has a rule in effect that if there is power shortage, they cut off exports. This has already happened when there was a severe cold stretch in Quebec, the utilities basically cut off power sales to New England. Therefore when we need to power most it may not be there.

I have left nuclear out as its probably not going to happen in New England anytime soon, the plants that are still running will continue until some point they are shut down but barring a major reduction in cost to build new plant and a major shift in the publics opinion I don't see any new ones going in.

The power grid is the most complex machine on the planet and to get a handle on it even its basics is something that most folks have no hope of understanding. Politicians, activists and wall street all know that and realize that by proper PR they can shift public opinion in any direction.

That is the best and easiest to understand explanation of power generation options I've ever seen! Very well written! The only sad part is about nuclear STILL not being accepted as a viable option by the brain-dead, indoctrinated public. :(
Thanks a lot for taking the time to present it.
 
Glad it helped, I edited out a few grammar issues.
 
There are some basic energy misconceptions in this thread

There are several ways to generate power with natural gas.

1.Convert an old steam boiler with an associated steam turbine from coal, oil or wood to natural gas. The overall efficiency of fuel to electric power with natural gas varies from lower with oil to somewhat higher than coal or wood. Overall at best 35% fuel to power efficiency. These plants take 8 to 12 hours to go from cold to full output and every time they are cycled on and off, the required maintenance goes up and reliability goes down. These used to be the base load power for the country. Unlike natural gas, when running on coal, oil or wood the owner buys the fuels in advance and stockpiles the fuel for use at a later date, they can run from day to weeks and are not dependent on limited pipeline capacity. Natural gas generates far less CO2 than fossil fuels so environmentally most regulatory bodies are strongly encouraging natural gas conversions

2. Burn natural gas in jet turbine with a generator on the shaft of the jet turbine. Send the hot exhaust gas from the turbine into the air . This configuration is called a "peaker". The efficiency is in the mid thirties up to forty percent. These plants are fast and cheap to build and don't take up much room. There are fleets of these that can be driven on site and can generate power in days. They are generally set up to burn liquid fuel (oil) in addition to natural gas. Their typical use is for short term temporary power. They can go from cold to full output in as little as five minutes. They generally are located near the load and have a large oil tank next to them so that they can start immediately in an emergency, they cant run on natural gas very often as in order to get large volumes of natural gas, the owner has to order it a day in advance. They are generally only used to balance out short term imbalances on the gird and for natural disasters. Unfortunately many of the mainstream renewables, like wind and solar are not reliable as they cannot stockpile wind or sun so the unfortunate side effect of renewables is a large fleet of new peakers.

3. The final way to burn natural gas for power only which is the vast majority of new generation in new England is with a combined cycle power plant. Natural gas is burned in one or more natural gas turbines which have generators hooked up to their shaft. The hot exhaust is then routed to a Heat Recovery Steam Generator (HRSG) and then the steam is routed to a steam turbine that can accept several pressures of steam. As the heat is being recovered, the turbines are optimized to burn at a very high combustion temperature and the overall fuel to power efficiency can be over 50%. These plants are the least cost to run and many can be run like a peaker if there is short term need for power. The efficiency goes up as the plant gets bigger so these are still very large capital intensive plants. One plant I worked on in Brampton Ontario was close to 1 billion dollars. In general they are quite flexible on output. The major downside is that these plants don't have a way of stockpiling natural gas so they are dependent on the gas line. On a day forward basis when there is more capacity in the pipelines, these combined cycle plants supply much of the power in New England but when the demand for power, heating and industrial use exceeds the pipeline capacity, something has to give. The residential heating customer pays a premium in the winter to guarantee that houses don't run out heat, so the industrial and power uses go into a bidding war for the gas capacity and the price of the gas skyrockets to the point where the combined cycle plants are no longer the cheapest option. In that case, any power plant that has a stockpile of fuel like a coal plant, biomass plant, ponded storage hydro or a peaker with big oil tank, can make a lot of money selling power at rates 10 to 20 times the normal rates and that gets factored in what everyone pays for power. The system is lot more complex than this simple explanation but this is rough approximation.

4. There is fourth option that industry uses that is the most efficient. Its called Combined Heat and Power. Industrial users like papermills need both power and steam to run their processes. In most large operations, the owner has a high pressure boiler and then generates some power by running the high pressure steam through a backpressure steam turbine which acts in place of a pressure reducing valve and then the process uses the resulting low pressure steam. The efficiency calculation is now bit more complex as there is one fuel input divided by the combination of the electric power produced and the thermal value of the steam. The efficiency can vary significantly but is almost always better than buying power and just generating steam. This process has been improved substantially by replacing the boiler with a gas turbine. It can be even more efficient than even a combined cycle as the fuel is used three ways, the turbine generates power, the resultant high pressure steam is run through a back pressure steam turbine and then the low pressure steam is used in the industrial process. The overall fuel efficiency of the plant can routinely be over 60%. In some densely populated areas in Europe (and a couple of US cities), there are district heating systems and regulations in place where even fairly low temperature hot water can be used for building heat and the overall efficiency can be even higher.

By the way, the overall efficiency of any thermal system is governed by the Carnot Cycle http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carnot_cycle. The difference between the highest temp in the system and the lowest temp sets the maximum efficiency. Gas turbines produce the highest combustion temperatures so any cycle with a gas turbine has the potential for the highest efficiency if there is a use for the heat left over.

The other power generation on the rise in the news is hydro. There are two types of hydro electric (note Canadians confuse things as they refer to any power plant be it hydroelectric, natural gas, wood or coal as "hydro"). The large hydros tend to be ponded storage where there is a big lake upstream of the dam. The operator stores water until power is needed and they then start draining the storage. That's great for power production but not great for the animals and ecosystem in the upstream lake. These plants flood a lot of land and are extremely costly to build so unless the government subsidizes the construction it is costly and in the US there are very few large hydros being built. The last major project in New England was the Dickey Lincoln project canceled 30 years ago. There are also run of the river hydros where there is no storage, these produce power when the water flows but are somewhat predictable. They are a small but important part of the regions power but due to environmental issues many are being removed. Folks hear about Hydro Quebec with its offer to sell New England all the power we want. Even though the ratepayers in Quebec pay very low rates, the power sold to the US will not be so low. The Quebec ratepayers are paying for existing hydro plants that were built with heavy direct and indirect subsidies. The new hydro offered to the US is from new plants that would be built without as many subsidies and the Quebec ratepayers expect some of the profits will be used to reduce their rates. It is convenient for New England as it is "Not In my Backyard" but this level of power transmission over very long distances has significant potential for grid interruptions so New England ratepayers will need to pay for a lot of backup generation in case the transmission system from Northern Quebec fails . This is not theoretical, a yahoo with a rifle knocked out the main line from Quebec two years ago for a couple of days and southern Quebec has experienced several major outages when the transmission system from Northern Quebec failed. This type of transmission is also significantly impacted by solar flares and hard to secure. The other current issue is that quebec has a rule in effect that if there is power shortage, they cut off exports. This has already happened when there was a severe cold stretch in Quebec, the utilities basically cut off power sales to New England. Therefore when we need to power most it may not be there.

I have left nuclear out as its probably not going to happen in New England anytime soon, the plants that are still running will continue until some point they are shut down but barring a major reduction in cost to build new plant and a major shift in the publics opinion I don't see any new ones going in.

The power grid is the most complex machine on the planet and to get a handle on it even its basics is something that most folks have no hope of understanding. Politicians, activists and wall street all know that and realize that by proper PR they can shift public opinion in any direction.

Peakbagger,

Thanks for making the concise write-up. Well written and understandable to just about anyone. Care to present that in Concord at the State House? Our company operates several types of on-site generation. Power generation and distribution is a complex issue. It would be nice if we could get some of the politics out of it. In the end, the rate payer is left holding the bag. Even with a CHP plant, a lot of large power users still need to buy power as they don't have a big enough heat sink for the "waste" heat. In the 90's there were a few companies out there pedaling CHP plants with hydroponic tomato grows attached to them.
 
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There are some basic energy misconceptions in this thread

There are several ways to generate power with natural gas.....
Hey Peak,
That was the best "non-partisan" explanation of electric power production I've read. Excellent.

I'm familiar with mostly my local region, and it's as you describe. The big power plants on Long Island built in the Port Jefferson and Oceanside/Island Park area had their 12 story boilers converted from coal to heavy oil (#6) mid last century, then converted to dual fuel (Oil/NG) in the 80's. Basically pushed by air pollution standards, and each time at a significant cost to the ratepayers. We were 50 years ahead of the green curve, and it gave us some of the highest electric rates in the country. Now their low efficiency have reduced their run times to a point where plans are to shut both sites down. They talk about re-powering, but that is just spin because the plans are to demo and rebuild a big combined cycle on the same property. With one quarter the workforce and 50% of the tax revenue. Stock holders love it, school district (50% drop in taxes collections) not so much.
 
Peakbagger, that's the best overview I've seen on New England's grid woes in a long span of puzzling - thanks much.

As to the Northeast Energy Direct pipeline, I think what's really happened there is that Kinder Morgan looked at all the great greenspace along the MA/VT/NH border and sees an easy construction path with minimized private citizen disruption. What they didn't see on the maps is how this greenspace came to be - long term strategies of accumulation and protection of wildlife corridors and aquifers from committed private groups and public initiatives.

While there are plenty of citizens who don't think we need more gas infrastructure, I can certainly see how we might. The catch with what's being proposed is one of scale, they're trying for a 36" high pressure pipeline - clearly that's with an eye to export. I think also the average green-thinker doesn't appreciate that we don't export what we used to, and this would be a help to our balance of trade. To my eye it just seems like we shouldn't be putting this scale of pipeline, with serious compressor stations, through our water supply or few remaining wildlife refuges and corridors when there are PLENTY of existing rights of way - highways, transmission line paths, and obsoleted railway. I will admit I'm not thrilled to see more big investments to support fossil fuels when we're homing in on what impacts that is having.

Maybe such a pipeline could eventually re-purpose to transport biomass LOL.

Cheers,
- Jeff
 
With respect to Kinder Morgans pipeline, they want to go big. The price to upsize from a 12" inch to a 36" isn't a lot, there needs to be right of way located and a trench blasted so if they need to be use a few more sticks of dynamite and make it a bit deeper and wider that's easy money. The key thing with them is that they want a guarantee that someone else will pay the bills if the line is not used. Most customers do not want to sign these long term contracts so Kinder Morgan and others are trying to get the states to do it. There is precedence with electric power, ISO New England will deem a power line as critical to the region and force the rate payers to pay for the upgrade even if they don't benefit from it directly. The gas companies are trying the same approach. The governors of the region were close to this and then the former governor of Mass dropped out as he knew that the pipelines logically would run through Mass. I expect the politicians are waiting for another winter of high power and gas prices to make things more desperate so the voters demand they do something.

Much of the demand for gas in New England is not "firm", the power plants takes their chances that gas is available to run the plant, if not they run at low rate to keep warm and wait until gas is available. There used to be competition so gas may be high and another fuel like coal would be more economical, that day is gone so when gas prices spike, electric prices spike. The electric utilities need to guarantee a rate for a set period of time so they buy firm power contracts which guarantee power at a set rate for months at time, they pay more up front but are covered on the cold day in January when prices spike. The independent power companies, usually have shorter term contracts so they can offer a low rate now to set the hook and then bump it up when winter comes.

My town has the PNGTS pipeline that went in 20 years ago, its not much of an eyesore as it runs along existing right of ways but in some places they went cross country and there is a big cut swath through the woods. The snowmachine folks love it but environmentally there are some impacts to the surrounding woods.

By the way there is a liquid fuel made from biomass that could be pumped, the economics aren't there and probably will never be but its a nice alternative to large commercial pellet or biomass boilers used for heating as its less expensive than heating oil.
 
Ok - I just signed up with Verde Energy (Norwalk, Ct) @ .1299 versus what I was paying w/ National Grid which will save me .3 per kwh and i will receive a $75.00 rebate as well. Term was 4 month w/ no cancellation fee.
 
The Northern Pass project is highly debated, but it's hard to argue the point that we don't need more energy supply in the northeast. Conservation is great, but you can't grow the economy with undersized grid and gas supply infrastucture. I'm not a big fan of the People's Republic of Massachusetts but they are head and shoulders above NH in consumer energy conservation programs.

Yeah, the Northeast needs more energy sources, but Northern Pass project does not dump any of the enrgy into NH - just supplies more southern states (and maybe even NY? I may be misremembering that one). Then with the Yankee plant being shut down, VT is going to be hurting. Add to that that coal firing plants (regardless of how clean they scrub emissions) are being denied permits - or permits to update to cleaner burning, so are being shut down by the EPA; we are screwed.
 
Been reading along and I come to one conclusion. I'm glad I live west of the Delaware Water Gap, way west.....Between the cost of utilities, the lack of choice in biofuels, gasoline prices and prevailing anti-gun sentiment east of the Gap, I'll stay out here in cob kicking country. I might visit ocassionally, but thats about it. Live, no way. I can't afford it and I'm not giving up my guns either.

At least NH is pretty gun-rights friendly (not many places that are not only shall issue, but costs $10 for 4 year permit) and VT is very gun friendly. ME is so-so, MA really sucketh and let's not even talk about NY or RI!
 
That makes no economic sense to me either. The cost of hydro power is all in the infrastructure and machinery. After that cost is realized, the power generation is basically free excepting maintenance and pending machinery upgrades and thats the most economical way to fly, whereas, power generation from NG always has built in cost of fuel. If I could harness the stream out back of my home with a dam, penstock and turbine turning a genny, I'd do it in a minute, it's free (after the initial equipment is paid for). Problem is, it's so flat here, I'd have to dam it up a mile up stream to get enough fall to spin something large enough to light a flashlight.....:)

I'm guessing it is an "environmental" thing.
 
That makes no economic sense to me either. The cost of hydro power is all in the infrastructure and machinery. After that cost is realized, the power generation is basically free excepting maintenance and pending machinery upgrades and thats the most economical way to fly, whereas, power generation from NG always has built in cost of fuel. If I could harness the stream out back of my home with a dam, penstock and turbine turning a genny, I'd do it in a minute, it's free (after the initial equipment is paid for). Problem is, it's so flat here, I'd have to dam it up a mile up stream to get enough fall to spin something large enough to light a flashlight.....:)
My brother and I rebuilt an abandoned hydro that was owned by a utility, but they shut it down and abandoned it in 1964. We licensed it and rebuilt the place and have run it now for 32 years. Free fuel!! It can make as much as 2350 horsepower under the right conditions. Averages about 6,000,000 kWh per year and the power is sold to a major utility for ONLY <$0.03/kWh!!
 
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