Why didn't you buy a cat stove?

[SolarAndWood]

For me I want to be able to turn the stove down for a slow/low burn in the fall and spring time.

It is also cool to be able to turn the stove down mid-winter when either no one is home or everyone is asleep. Then, be able to turn it back up after 8 - 10 hours. It is a good reason to have the convection deck/blowers on the BK. You can heat the space up very quickly after burning low while the heat wasn't needed.

 

[Battenkiller]

Because I couldn't find one used on Craigslist for $300 including: a cord of 3 year-old hardwood, fireplace tools, firewood rack, flue thermo, coal hod, and a Neverbreak shovel. But if I had been able to, I would have chosen a nice cat stove instead of my VC Vigilant. ;-)

Both the longer burn times that BBAR craves and the heat control that Solar mentions are high on the list of desirable features for me. I'd love a BKK, just have to get the price of the dang things under two grand and I'll put the VC in storage as a backup. Ain't happenin' anytime soon, though.

 

[Todd]

Why do they offer non cat stoves and why do they seem to be the most popular choice?
Why would a cat stove allow you to use less wood when the stated efficiencies are similar?

I think non cats are more popular because when cats first came out they weren't designed very well and just didn't last. Dealers were getting lots of complaints and service calls so the cat started to fade away. Lately the cat stove designs have improved and are making a come back. If you look at the efficiencies a properly operated cat stove is probably at least 10% more efficient on average burn rates but they are probably even more efficient than a non cat at low slow burns. Non cats shine at the higher BTU rates when you need a lot of heat fast.

 

[BrowningBAR]

Because I couldn't find one used on Craigslist for $300 including: a cord of 3 year-old hardwood, fireplace tools, firewood rack, flue thermo, coal hod, and a Neverbreak shovel. But if I had been able to, I would have chosen a nice cat stove instead of my VC Vigilant. ;-)

Both the longer burn times that BBAR craves and the heat control that Solar mentions are high on the list of desirable features for me. I'd love a BKK, just have to get the price of the dang things under two grand and I'll put the VC in storage as a backup. Ain't happenin' anytime soon, though.

If you search CraigsList long enough, you'll find a BK that is under 2k.

 

[mhrischuk]

I was under the impression that you had to get the cat very hot before it begins to do it's thing. How does turning the stove way down keep the cat hot?

 

[certified106]

Why do they offer non cat stoves and why do they seem to be the most popular choice?
Why would a cat stove allow you to use less wood when the stated efficiencies are similar?

When I saw the title I thought this thread would be kind of interesting as I was looking for a thread similar to this one when I was considering the switch. However after reading the majority of the responses I had to chuckle since the majority of the people that started posting were posting about why they bought there CAT stove and how it is superior to the non cat.

Just as a precursor I burned wood in a Cat stove for over 15 years before I made the switch to my PE T6 and I found my cat stove to burn well and perform ok and was generally happy with it. After I switched to the PE T6 I have noticed differences such as the same amount of wood burns for about the same time but the middle of my burn cycle has a little bit higher peak temperature wise in the living room. I made the switch as I wanted something different I wanted to see an awesome flame show, I wanted my wife to be able to operate it a little bit more easily as I am sometimes gone for days at a time, I wanted higher peak output, and I wanted it to fit the decor of the living room since it is the focal point. Will I always have a non cat stove....I don't know only time will tell but what I can say is so far I have been happy with it and not noticed the HUGE difference that everyone talks about.

As part of my my job I perform combustion analysis and efficiency tests for a living on a variety of things and when I was considering switching to a non cat I set up a few calculations and based on what I found and the efficiencies for my stove and they new stove I was considering I should use some where between an 1/8 and a 1/4 more cords this year with my PE versus my Dutchwest stove. The point I really want to make is this is all hypothetical will I really be able to tell if I use a 1/4 of a cord more? I highly doubt it considering my usage varies some years by a cord or more depending on the weather conditions and who is filling the stove.

It seems like a lot of times there turns out to be a pissing match between CAT and non CAT stoves when if we equated the different stove efficiencies to trucks and MPG it would sound something like this.....My F350 is better than your GMC 3500 because it gets 1.35 mpg better fuel efficiency (never mind that one guy warms his truck up in the morning and the other guy doesn't, they both put different brands of fuel in their tanks, have different tire sizes, different weights, different driving conditions.......etc. It can be an almost impossible comparison to make accurately as the different conditions have huge effects! Many times just switching drivers on a truck or car can net completely different fuel mileage just the same as switching users on a stove can net completely different burn times and efficiencies. Alright enough blabbing on my part carry on with the discussions of whose stove is better LOL ...... :lol:

 

[soupy1957]

Backwoods Savage: You said, "......I also got lots of exercise going up on the roof and cleaning the chimney 3-4 times every burning season."

I'm really rather curious about that. I've read a few threads in here that talk about the appropriate number of times to clean a chimney system, and I'm very surprised that you did it that often! Is that true today? If so, Why?

-Soupy1957

 

[HeatsTwice]

After a horrible experience with the VC Encore cat (needed replacing every year at $180 each), I swore them off bitterly.

The 10% efficiency improvement a cat might get me is not worth the hassle no matter how small. I have acres of space to store wood, have a 3 year supply today with still more time before next burn season, and can afford any stove I want.

Here is a list of pros and cons I put together in my head. Please correct me if I am wrong, or you can add to them. I do not mean to slight anyone elses inputs. These are my own.

Pros:

1) Longer burns
2) Uses less wood by 10 percent.
3) More environmentally friendly.

Cons:

1) More monitoring of the stove temps. Non cats are "fire and forget".
2) Sooner or later a cat needs replacing. This is an added expense to the unit which only offsets the 10% wood savings.
2.5) Failure of it usually comes at an inopportune time which will leave your house without heat while the stove cools down and you do the work.
3) Adds to the overall cost of the stove.
4) Requires that more attention be paid to what is and what is not burned. I.e. any magazine paper with chromium in it will react with the cat material and possibly void warranty and or reduce performance.
5) More "moving parts" in the stove are required. As the number increases linearly the number of things which can go wrong with the total system increases exponentially.
6) Cleaning the stove becomes more complex as the cat gets in the way.

 

[SolarAndWood]

How does turning the stove way down keep the cat hot?

As long as the cat lights off before you turn it down, the gasses flowing through the cat keep it lit at low burn. I fully load my 4.3 cu ft stove every time regardless of how cold it is. If I need little heat, you will see what looks like a dead fire but the cat glowing. If you want to throw some heat, you get a light show. Rate of burn dictates length of burn. I find burning 24/7 makes the process much easier. When you reload on a hot coal bed, the cat easily lights off in a matter of minutes after the reload.

 

[SolarAndWood]

Here is a list of pros and cons I put together in my head. Please correct me if I am wrong, or you can add to them.

I think your list is spot on given the stove you were burning. I know this as I had the same stove and the same experience. My experience has been just the opposite with the BK. It is much easier to operate than our non-cat stove to the point that I don't like going to camp when it gets cold.

 

[raybonz]

First time around the dealer showed us a CAT on the shelf and told us "you don't want this, it's an extra cost/maintenance." I think they also tossed in how CAT stoves would be outlawed soon since Re-burn technology worked better. Now I look at the CAT future replacement as the cost of doing business and well worth it for the wood I could save along with hopefully more steady burn output.

I found this site before buying and still went with a non CAT which I think was the right decision for my first stove. Now that I have 3 years worth of wood and "know" what I'm doing a CAT stove should fit better. When this all started I wasn't planning on ALWAYS burning 24/7 it was to supplement my propane bill but quickly changed when I started seeing the savings. I also think the non CAT fire is better to look at, that is one thing I'll miss. My goal now is to heat this place 24/7 with the least amount of work possible so I hope the CAT stove helps improve this. Viewing a nice fire is now secondary, if I want flames I'll turn up the T-stat for a little while.

As for the extra lever, my Endeavor has a bypass that I have to close so I'm not picking up anything extra control wise. With the BK having a T-Stat it will be a lot easier to teach others how to run the stove. Let it burn to xxx amount then put the knob on 1, 2, 3 etc instead of "look at the handle and push it in to the 2nd spring when looking over the ash lip".

I haven't burned the BK yet so I don't know if the grass is any greener but I don't think it'll be any worse.

I say toss a load in there now and you should be down to coals come October!



Ray

 

[BrowningBAR]

Backwoods Savage: You said, "......I also got lots of exercise going up on the roof and cleaning the chimney 3-4 times every burning season."

I'm really rather curious about that. I've read a few threads in here that talk about the appropriate number of times to clean a chimney system, and I'm very surprised that you did it that often! Is that true today? If so, Why?

-Soupy1957

I think for everyone it's a little different. I don't see a difference between creosote build up on the cat vs non-cat stoves that I have. Both had minimal build up at the end of the winter. The Vigilant has more, but I get a lot less creosote than a lot of other people that have/had a Vigilant.

 

[mhrischuk]

After a horrible experience with the VC Encore cat (needed replacing every year at $180 each), I swore them off bitterly.

The 10% efficiency improvement a cat might get me is not worth the hassle no matter how small. I have acres of space to store wood, have a 3 year supply today with still more time before next burn season, and can afford any stove I want.

Here is a list of pros and cons I put together in my head. Please correct me if I am wrong, or you can add to them. I do not mean to slight anyone elses inputs. These are my own.

Pros:

1) Longer burns
2) Uses less wood by 10 percent.
3) More environmentally friendly.

Cons:

1) More monitoring of the stove temps. Non cats are "fire and forget".
2) Sooner or later a cat needs replacing. This is an added expense to the unit which only offsets the 10% wood savings.
2.5) Failure of it usually comes at an inopportune time which will leave your house without heat while the stove cools down and you do the work.
3) Adds to the overall cost of the stove.
4) Requires that more attention be paid to what is and what is not burned. I.e. any magazine paper with chromium in it will react with the cat material and possibly void warranty and or reduce performance.
5) More "moving parts" in the stove are required. As the number increases linearly the number of things which can go wrong with the total system increases exponentially.
6) Cleaning the stove becomes more complex as the cat gets in the way.

Since I have no wood stove installed my opinions need to take that into account. I have the experience of Hussein Obama if you know what I mean. That list is accurate to what swayed me away from cats. The other thing that happened in my quest for knowledge here and visits to the stove shops was starting out with this very high regard of VC only to discover most are cat with lots of moving parts and they have dropped down on the list in many peoples signatures here.

I'm curious how my non cat Equinox will perform in my situation.

 

[rdust]

If you notice the guys that had issues with cat stoves are speaking about stoves that are 15+ years old. That's like comparing a car made in the mid 70's to a car made today.

Both technologies work, it's a matter of deciding what works for you. I'll find out the other side this fall, my Endeavor will be in the wings waiting though if the BK honeymoon doesn't work out. :lol:

 

[rdust]

Backwoods Savage: You said, "......I also got lots of exercise going up on the roof and cleaning the chimney 3-4 times every burning season."

I'm really rather curious about that. I've read a few threads in here that talk about the appropriate number of times to clean a chimney system, and I'm very surprised that you did it that often! Is that true today? If so, Why?

-Soupy1957

He's speaking of when he burned the old Ashley wood stove.(pre epa unit) The old stoves produced more creosote so the required more cleanings.

 

[Todd]

Here is a list of pros and cons I put together in my head. Please correct me if I am wrong, or you can add to them.

I think your list is spot on given the stove you were burning. I know this as I had the same stove and the same experience. My experience has been just the opposite with the BK. It is much easier to operate than our non-cat stove to the point that I don't like going to camp when it gets cold.

This is a perfect example of how cat stoves got a bad name. IMO VC over engineered their cat stoves and ended up having many problems. Then they tried tweaking the same stove into a non cat neverburn and did further damage to their rep. A simple designed Blaze King or Woodstock have rave reviews, VC is giving them all a bad name.

This cat vs non cat debate is still one of the best debates we have here on the forum but it will be over in a few years since a few companies have realized the benefits of both technologies and are incorporating them into one stove.

 

[begreen]

I don't think this thread is supposed to be a cat/no cat debate. Though these threads often degrade to that level. No need to be defensive. The question was why didn't you buy a cat stove? For many folks it just wasn't an option. Some had previous bad experiences too. Some had no dealers near by selling cat stoves.

FYI, Buck has been quietly selling cat stoves for years too.

 

[HeatsTwice]

Here is a list of pros and cons I put together in my head. Please correct me if I am wrong, or you can add to them.

I think your list is spot on given the stove you were burning. I know this as I had the same stove and the same experience. My experience has been just the opposite with the BK. It is much easier to operate than our non-cat stove to the point that I don't like going to camp when it gets cold.

True, it was an older Encore and I have a soft spot in my heart for your BK. If the only way I can get a 4.2 cu foot stove is to go with a cat then I would consider it. Given that I've been burning a Napoleon 1900 for the past 4 years (relatively) trouble free and it still has a lot of life in it, by the time I need a new stove perhaps the cat technology will be even better than it is today.

Now, back to stacking the wood of 2013.

 

[rdust]

I don't think this thread is supposed to be a cat/no cat debate. Though these threads often degrade to that level. No need to be defensive. The question was why didn't you buy a cat stove? For many folks it just wasn't an option. Some had previous bad experiences too. Some had no dealers near by selling cat stoves.

FYI, Buck has been quietly selling cat stoves for years too.

You know anytime it's brought up it'll turn in the good ole debate. Just like Chevy vs Ford.

Plus this time of year is slow so it keeps us busy. :lol:

 

[mhrischuk]

Next they're gonna add urea injection It's the latest thing they are doing for emissions on diesel trucks.

 

[rdust]

Next they're gonna add urea injection It's the latest thing they are doing for emissions on diesel trucks.

Don't get me started, I work in the Diesel field! :lol: First EGR then DPF now SCR.<sigh>

 

[certified106]

I don't think this thread is supposed to be a cat/no cat debate. Though these threads often degrade to that level. No need to be defensive. The question was why didn't you buy a cat stove? For many folks it just wasn't an option. Some had previous bad experiences too. Some had no dealers near by selling cat stoves.

FYI, Buck has been quietly selling cat stoves for years too.

Haha I thought the same thing to when I clicked on this thread. Now I'm just eating popcorn having a cold one and enjoying the laughs. LOL

 

[BrotherBart]

I didn't buy a cat stove because I didn't want a cat stove.

And even if I had, my penchant for big honkin steel stoves would have meant a Buck Stove and an eight inch liner would not have worked in my chimney.

 

[rdust]

I didn't buy a cat stove because I didn't want a cat stove.

And even if I had, my penchant for big honkin steel stoves would have meant a Buck Stove and an eight inch liner would not have worked in my chimney.

BB sweat and to the point! :lol:

 

[MarkinNC]

I don't think I looked at Cat stoves at the local dealerships (I did not look at the Buck stove dealer) and I have been meaning to see if there are any Cat stoves next time I stop by. When they came out and they had a bad reputation as I recall. Today, I would consider one especially something like a BK with long burn times.

I am very happy with my stove and will be interested in what RDust has to say after switching. Super heavy duty and reliability was what I was looking for.