XXV Fair market value

[SoCal65]

What is a fair market price for a Harman XXV used one season?

How does the warranty transfer to the new owner? Does Harman need a new form filled out?

Thanks

 

[MountainStoveGuy]

warrenties usually arent transferable, the warrenty is between the dealer and the user, not the user and the manufacture.

 

[bacsales]

Talk to the dealerthe previous owner purchased from. If you become a customer of his they should honor the warrantee. I have warranteed units that came from my shop with no problem. EG new person purchased a house thus became the 2nd owner of the stove I sold. The key is to be nice. Dealers are paid less for warrantee work than they charge for non warrantee labor. The manufacturers force the dealerto defray this cost with the initial profit from the stove. This is why many dealers service only what they sell.

 

[biggins08]

Harmon claims that their warrantie are transferable. Check the website.

 

[pelletheat]

Harman warranty is transferable.

(broken link removed to http://www.harmanstoves.com/faqs/?Action=Q&ID=96)

 

[SoCal65]

Thanks for the information. Any info on the price. I know the stove list for about $3000.

 

[elkimmeg]

That's great news the warranty transferes, but how does Harman force a dealerto work on a stove they may have not sold?.

How does harman deal with customers where a dealer goes out of business? What if I move and take my harman with me who will service IT?

I'm the original owner be realistic talk to the selling dealer find out his willingness to render service. The warrant is only paper, if a near by dealerthat did
not sell you the stove, is under no obligation to take on your warranty repairs.

again I guessing here as well as a distributor that did not know warranties were transfereable. Service is a dealer responsibility to their seller

 

[HarryBack]

That's great news the warranty transferes, but how does Harman force a dealerto work on a stove they may have not sold?.

How does harman deal with customers where a dealer goes out of business? What if I move and take my harman with me who will service IT?

I'm the original owner be realistic talk to the selling dealer find out his willingness to render service. The warrant is only paper, if a near by dealerthat did
not sell you the stove, is under no obligation to take on your warranty repairs.

again I guessing here as well as a distributor that did not know warranties were transfereable. Service is a dealer responsibility to their seller

yes, the warrantees are transferrable, just have them fill out a new warrantee form, stating thats the case.

Harman cant force anyone to do anything. The original dealer is supposed to service the unit and honor warrantee obligations.Elk is absolutely correct in his above quote. If you take the stove, move out of the dealer's area, he/she isnt reqired to service it. nor is the dealer in the area you move to. As Ive said a million times before, warrantee work is almost always a money-losing proposition. There certainly are grey areas though. For instance, if you are really close to another dealer, they very well may service the unit, for good relations, future sales, etc, but they arent required to. Also, a little bit of honey on your part will certainly catch more bees than vinegar. Here's an example:

GOOD WAY TO APPROACH IT:
"hi, Im Bill. I recently moved here with my XXV, and Ive been having a couple of problems. Its still under warrantee, and I wonder if you folks wouldnt come out and take a look at it....?


BAD WAY TO APPROACH IT:
"hi, Im Bill. I recently moved here with the POS &^&#@!! XXV, and the dealer who sold it to me wont come service the &*&^^%&**! thing....imagine....hes only 1200 miles away?! Yeesh, stove dealers are no better than lawyers or car salesman! Thieves! Idiots! Now, mind you, this stove is still under warrantee, and I expect you to come out RIGHT NOW and fix the &^%((&!! thing, and I better not see a bill....blahblah


If you approach it the GOOD way, I think you'll have a betetr chance!

 

[Roospike]

So if you get a warranty from the stove manufacture and the dealer goes out of business or you move ya'll are saying that voids the warranty from the stove manufacture ?

 

[HarryBack]

who said that, Roo? What happens if the dealer goes out of business? If the owner cant get another dealerto service it, the "issue" gets sent to Harman's area marketing rep who either does the service themselves, or begs and pleads and basically tries to coerce a somewhat local dealer into doing the work. The local dealer offers no warrantees above and beyond the warrantee issued by THE STOVE MANUFACTURER.
Now, if you move, its a bit of the old "sticky wicket". Lets say you buy the stove in Colorado. Then you get the promotion-of-a-lifetime, and you love that XXV so much, you decide to take it with you......but you move to Australia.....do you think it reasonable that the stove manufacturer has to honor its warrantee obligations when you move somewhere where service is unavailable?

 

[Roospike]

who said that, Roo? What happens if the dealer goes out of business? If the owner cant get another dealerto service it, the "issue" gets sent to Harman's area marketing rep who either does the service themselves, or begs and pleads and basically tries to coerce a somewhat local dealer into doing the work. The local dealer offers no warrantees above and beyond the warrantee issued by THE STOVE MANUFACTURER.
Now, if you move, its a bit of the old "sticky wicket". Lets say you buy the stove in Colorado. Then you get the promotion-of-a-lifetime, and you love that XXV so much, you decide to take it with you......but you move to Australia.....do you think it reasonable that the stove manufacturer has to honor its warrantee obligations when you move somewhere where service is unavailable?

I guess i pulled that information from your statement here.

Harman cant force anyone to do anything. The original dealer is supposed to service the unit and honor warrantee obligations.Elk is absolutely correct in his above quote. If you take the stove, move out of the dealer's area, he/she isnt reqired to service it. nor is the dealer in the area you move to. As Ive said a million times before, warrantee work is almost always a money-losing proposition. There certainly are grey areas though. For instance, if you are really close to another dealer, they very well may service the unit, for good relations, future sales, etc, but they arent required to.

The way "I" look at it its brand X i am buying the stove from , the quality , reputation and the warranty they offer. The dealerto me is just the one that happens to sell brand X local to me.

When i bought my stove i bought brand X and not the dealer. Brand X says i get XXX kind of warranty from them ( stove company).

To me its like going out and buying a DeWalt chop saw , I'm buying DeWalt , I'm buying there product , quality and the warranty they offer.

 

[Roospike]

What happens if the dealer goes out of business?

It shouldnt be the buyers issue if the "dealer" goes out of business. A buyer shouldnt get there warranty because the dealer was a bad business man ? , couldn't pay his bills? , didnt take care of service? , decided to retire ? had a gambling problem or whatever reason the dealers goes out ?

If the owner cant get another dealerto service it, the "issue" gets sent to Harman's area marketing rep who either does the service themselves, or begs and pleads and basically tries to coerce a somewhat local dealer into doing the work. ?The local dealer offers no warrantee above and beyond the warrantee issued by THE STOVE MANUFACTURER.

Over what THE STOVE MANUFACTURER offers for warranty is not the warranty , I'll agree.

Now, if you move, its a bit of the old "sticky wicket". Lets say you buy the stove in Colorado. Then you get the promotion-of-a-lifetime, and you love that XXV so much, you decide to take it with you......but you move to Australia.....do you think it reasonable that the stove manufacturer has to honor its warrantee obligations when you move somewhere where service is unavailable?

Now moving from Colorado to Australia is a little extreme. Moving from Colorado to New York you should be able to keep your warranty with the stove manufacturer.

 

[HarryBack]

Roo.....where did I say the warrantee was voided? Hardly. What I did state, is, in fact, correct. The dealer selling the unit is in fact the one required by Harman to service it. So, you buy a warrantee. Ok, good. Do you also READ the warrantee, since of course, it is part of the purchase?

Since to you, the dealer is "is just the one that happens to sell brand X local to me.", he isnt really a very vital part of your buying process then, correct? Sadly, you are a typical warehouse-store/internet customer. If the dealer was of so little import, why would people complain here about them so? Then, when something untoward occurs, that insignificant dealer who, in your mind, is only a middleman warehouser for the stove, nothing more, actually becomes important. In my reading of your posts, Roo, you are actually much better-informed and technically adept than most of the customers I see. Trust me when I say this, you are actually quite rare....not in the fact that you are an internet/warehouse store lowball shopper, but in that you actually know and understand the principles of what you are talking about, in most cases. The majority of folks dont have your level of expertise, and that is where a dealer comes in. The manufacturer doesnt want Mr Smith tinkering around in the guts of his stove due to a myriad of reasons, the main one being that he might not have the technical expertise to do so.

Flame on.

 

[Roospike]

Roo.....where did I say the warrantee was voided? Hardly. What I did state, is, in fact, correct. The dealer selling the unit is in fact the one required by Harman to service it. So, you buy a warrantee. Ok, good. Do you also READ the warrantee, since of course, it is part of the purchase?

Since to you, the dealer is "is just the one that happens to sell brand X local to me.", he isnt really a very vital part of your buying process then, correct? Sadly, you are a typical warehouse-store/internet customer. If the dealer was of so little import, why would people complain here about them so? Then, when something untoward occurs, that insignificant dealer who, in your mind, is only a middleman warehouser for the stove, nothing more, actually becomes important. In my reading of your posts, Roo, you are actually much better-informed and technically adept than most of the customers I see. Trust me when I say this, you are actually quite rare....not in the fact that you are an internet/warehouse store lowball shopper, but in that you actually know and understand the principles of what you are talking about, in most cases. The majority of folks dont have your level of expertise, and that is where a dealer comes in. The manufacturer doesnt want Mr Smith tinkering around in the guts of his stove due to a myriad of reasons, the main one being that he might not have the technical expertise to do so.

Flame on.

Well , Where do i start ........................

How about , I agree.

I'm looking at this from my point of view so i would fit the catagory. If i had a bad part of my stove i would expect the replacement part to my door and i would fix it myself. The wood stove is of a whole different catagory of a Pallet stove so with a pellet stove i would expect the manufacture or dealerto trouble shoot the problem if it was something i couldnt figure out myself and then send me the part and if all else failed then would require assistance from the dealer ..........any dealer , any repair tech , just as long as i could get it fixed.

To me its kinda like a Dell computer and how they work with there warranty , I buy a computer from Dell , if i have a problem i get assistance , if its a bad part its gets fix by somebody and that somebody could be any local tech , unless it was a part , item or issue i could fix myslef.

I DO have a different outlook on dealers then I'm sure a lot of people have but if i do have a good dealerthats just an extra bouns and i have no problem telling everyone i know about the quality service. I also have no problem going the other way if the dealer is not so up to par.

My problem? , my issue? , why i am the way i am? ..............way too many times getting screwed , over charged and under serviced. I guess i just dont expect service so i pay the dealer , get my item and hold my warranty in hand if need be and hold the product company accountable if i need help and if that helps come from the dealer in my town , the next town , over the road or through the mail and i do it myself ....just as long as i get what i was offered with the product.

HarryBack , I already know your one hell of a dealer , person , salesman and would be an honor to buy from you but its just not something i expect anymore in this day and age.

 

[HarryBack]

youre not alone, Roo, in your opinions about sales and service. Sadly, many people have been screwed,and it totally amazes me that ther screwers always seem to do so well....totally befuddles me, in fact. As for being overcharged and underserviced, thats so subjective its quite hard to address. To some folks, overcharged is any price other than the absolute lowest price available. Others put a value on service or repute. To someone who doesnt mind figuring things out and getting his hands dirty, like yourself, service wouldnt be as important as possibly the longterm viability of the brand (able to get parts in the future). In actuality, pellet stoves really arent that complicated. Anyone who has a small amount of technical know-how can figure out the issue with a few tests, really, and some common sense. Once the issue is figured out, its fairly easy to get the part needed. Unfortunately, these qualities seem to be becoming very uncommon anymore. Ive often wondered how the woodburning stove guys convince a homeowner in a situation where the problem is draft rather than the stove, how its not the stove thats defective, but some amalgamation of their home and chimney. Its what the untrusting person would expect them to say.

The stove biz is certainly an interesting one, and everchanging. There is a place for the outlet-type stoves, like the Englander models sold by the big boxes. The companies making these stoves do a good job of supporting them, as evidenced here. Unfortuantely, their weak point is no ground-pounders who actually go to the homes and service them. There is also a place for the stoves produced and sold thru retail stove shops. Their weak point usually seems to be the dealer and their willingness or lack thereof in serviceing the units and keeping the customers happy. And the key is, it really isnt hard to keep the average customer happy. Listen to them, offer helpful suggestions, spend some time with them. Most people will notice this and appreciate it. That surely isnt to say that you as a dealer wont get irate customers, but they make you appreciate the good ones all the more!

 

[HarryBack]

What is a fair market price for a Harman XXV used one season?

How does the warranty transfer to the new owner? Does Harman need a new form filled out?

Thanks

Harman has a Warrantee transferral form.

 

[elkimmeg]

Harry. we have to pardon Roo he bought a home crapo chop saw call Dewalt not a bad saw but certaintly not a Makita or Bosch

Dewalt a was one of the best names in woodworking power tool at one time. The quality of old Dewalt radial saws was famous, but Black and Decker bought the name and bastardized it, to sell their products at Home Crapo

 

[begreen]

Actually they still make some good tools. Their bigger compound miter saws are really nice.

 

[HarryBack]

Harry. we have to pardon Roo he bought a home crapo chop saw call Dewalt not a bad saw but certaintly not a Makita or Bosch

Dewalt a was one of the best names in woodworking power tool at one time. The quality of old Dewalt radial saws was famous, but Black and Decker bought the name and bastardized it, to sell their products at Home Crapo

Actually, I own one of those old Dewalt radial arm saws.....the motor runs on 220 3 phase! This thing has never stalled! Unbelievable power!

 

[elkimmeg]

Actually they still make some good tools. Their bigger compound miter saws are really nice.

I think I used them all Hatachi, Dewalt, Bosch, Ridgid, Milwalkee, Even the Ryobi, but the one I own is a Makita LS1212

All decent saws not bad but there was something I liked about the Makita. I have owned it a while and never had to re calibrate it.

Mine gets quite a bit of use. My second shoice would have been the Milwalkee Actually Bosch but there was quite some $$ difference

Skill saws the Milwalkeee has a rearl fine tooth blade I use for exterior finish and trim. My day to day saws foir framing and Makitas
they take a licking and keep delivering.

Sawzalls I own 3 a Dewalt. Milwalkee. and a Makita. I like the Milwilkee best. Cordless I had Hatachi finally burned them out now a Dewalt.
and was given an 18 volt Ryobi versa pac. For the money not bad. If I were replacing them and had the money I really like the Millwalkee.

Most of my tools were bought at the local Chase building supply or the former woodwooker's wearehouse. I admit from time to time I do buy at Home Cheapo.

Usually for convience after hours of my main lumber yard closed. And sundays If I start a project and need supplies.

The best reason I avoid Home Cheapo they contract installations, shopping there is supporting your competition And one does not stay in business supporting the competition

Believe me they are not the best in relations treating there contractors.

 

[Gooserider]

I will say that quite aside from not being interested in a pellet stove, based on what I see here I would NEVER consider a Harman product just because of that insistence that everything go through a dealer... I understand about Harry's view point on the importance of service, and I understand that warrantee work isn't as profitable, but I don't think it's as valid as Roo's point on the purchase being of a Brand X, not a dealer.

I can't think of a SINGLE other product that seems to have such a negative attitude about customer support... If I buy a car from dealer X, I'm not married to dealer X, I am perfectly free to take it to dealer Y (of the same brand of course) for service. I might not get quite as good a treatment as someone that bought their car from dealer Y, he isn't going to refuse to service me.... If I have a problem with my car dealer not wanting to cover something he should, I can call the manufacturer and get support from higher up (at least in theory)

If I buy a power tool, I will usually be able to take it back to any branch of the same store I bought it from (even Home Despot) and get it taken care of if it fails out of the box. Otherwise, there is usually some place I have to get it to for service, but they won't care where I got it from as long as I can show proof of purchase.

See the earlier mention of Dell PC, or any of the other brands that offer that level of service warrantee

My father used to be a manufacturers rep for a few boat companies. Part of his dealer agreement was that a dealer would support ANY customer that came in needing parts or warranty work, and that failure would cost the dealerthe franchise. AFAIK he never had to use that clause.

A few years back we had a new water heater installed just before our plumber was going on vacation. It turned out to be defective - I called Rheem, and had a service tech from another company there the next day, no charge to me... We may have gotten the w/h from the plumber, but the warrantee came from the company that made it, and they took care of it....

It only seems to be the stove business that can get away with we will only honor the manufacturers warrantee on the stuff we sold, with Harman being the worst offender. Unfortuneately some of the other threads have been starting to sound like VC isn't doing much better in some cases.

Gooserider

 

[HarryBack]

you pointed out my issue, well, Goose......when you TAKE your car to dealer Y, etc...thing is, most folks dont bring in their stoves for repair....a tech has to travel to the home and diagnose and fix it. Since there is no profit in warrantee work, or its a money-losing proposition, why would I want to service units near and far and lose money?

Maybe a few ways to fix this. One might be make it possible to make money with warrantee work. This could be done simply by paying more for warrantee work. Then folks might want to do the work, if they can make money.

All of your examples, Goose, are basically "bring it to the dealer" examples. I wonder if those same folks would be so agreeable to doing the work if they had to pay a tech for travel, have a vehicle to do so, pay insurance and fuel, and not make money? There really arent many folks who would un-install the stove, load the 250-400 lb monster in their BMW, and leave it for service work, is there?

 

[Gooserider]

you pointed out my issue, well, Goose......when you TAKE your car to dealer Y, etc...thing is, most folks dont bring in their stoves for repair....a tech has to travel to the home and diagnose and fix it. Since there is no profit in warrantee work, or its a money-losing proposition, why would I want to service units near and far and lose money?

Maybe a few ways to fix this. One might be make it possible to make money with warrantee work. This could be done simply by paying more for warrantee work. Then folks might want to do the work, if they can make money.

All of your examples, Goose, are basically "bring it to the dealer" examples. I wonder if those same folks would be so agreeable to doing the work if they had to pay a tech for travel, have a vehicle to do so, pay insurance and fuel, and not make money? There really arent many folks who would un-install the stove, load the 250-400 lb monster in their BMW, and leave it for service work, is there?

I agree that my examples were mostly "haul it to the shop" instances (except for the water heater!), but we've had the mostly the same sort of thing with warrantee problems on our gas furnace and our gas cookstove. It depends on what the warrantee promises to cover.

If the warrantee says "parts & labor" without putting any limits on it, then it is NOT MY PROBLEM if you are loosing money - that is up to the negotiation you do with your supplier, and doesn't involve me. If as is more typical, even on "drag it in" warrantees, transportation costs aren't covered, or are only partly covered, then I would expect you to charge me your STANDARD rates for travel, and have no reason to complain (unless I discovered that there was a big difference between what a non-regular customer and a regular customer was getting charged for the same service call)

In the case of both our gas stove, and our furnace, we have had warrantee work where the parts were covered, but we were charged for the service call - both times we had no complaint about this, although in the case of the furnace, I would have liked to have seen if I could have gotten the part myself and done my own repair to save the technician charge.

If I lived outside your stated service area, (which I would assume is part of your franchise agreement) then I wouldn't have a huge gripe if you refused to travel the extra distance or wanted to charge extra for it, especially if you made it clear that it was only the distance that was the issue.

I would also expect that if I DID drag the stove into your shop, (or a reasonable subset of it's parts depending on the problem) that you would take care of it as specified by the terms of the warrantee.

The key point here is that I don't buy this "we only service what we sell" attitude, coupled with a manufacturer that doesn't want to have any contact with it's customers.

Gooserider

 

[Roospike]

Dell warranty sends a tech out to your home .

I had warranty work done on a range hood , a fridge , a welder , computer , washer , dryer , air compressor , ect and all these items the service came to the unit and didnt have to be delivered to a shop or store.
I had a car break under warranty and the dealer sent a flat bed truck out to pic up the car , do service work and even delivered it back to the house , all i had to do was answer the door twice on pick up and delivery .

 

[HarryBack]

I agree that my examples were mostly "haul it to the shop" instances (except for the water heater!), but we've had the mostly the same sort of thing with warrantee problems on our gas furnace and our gas cookstove. It depends on what the warrantee promises to cover.

If the warrantee says "parts & labor" without putting any limits on it, then it is NOT MY PROBLEM if you are loosing money - that is up to the negotiation you do with your supplier, and doesn't involve me. If as is more typical, even on "drag it in" warrantees, transportation costs aren't covered, or are only partly covered, then I would expect you to charge me your STANDARD rates for travel, and have no reason to complain (unless I discovered that there was a big difference between what a non-regular customer and a regular customer was getting charged for the same service call)

In the case of both our gas stove, and our furnace, we have had warrantee work where the parts were covered, but we were charged for the service call - both times we had no complaint about this, although in the case of the furnace, I would have liked to have seen if I could have gotten the part myself and done my own repair to save the technician charge.

If I lived outside your stated service area, (which I would assume is part of your franchise agreement) then I wouldn't have a huge gripe if you refused to travel the extra distance or wanted to charge extra for it, especially if you made it clear that it was only the distance that was the issue.

I would also expect that if I DID drag the stove into your shop, (or a reasonable subset of it's parts depending on the problem) that you would take care of it as specified by the terms of the warrantee.

The key point here is that I don't buy this "we only service what we sell" attitude, coupled with a manufacturer that doesn't want to have any contact with it's customers.

Gooserider

Which is pretty much what we do, Goose. On more occaisions than I'd like to admit, we've had to service competing dealers' units. In these cases, we do tell the owner that while the warrantee will cover parts and labor, we simply cant afford to eat the travel time, especially when it can be as much as an hour each way. In most cases, folks do seem to understand this, but every once and awhile, you get there, diagnose the issue, fix it, and get refusal to pay. Not much you can do there, just wait for it to break, and tell them that until youre paid for the LAST call, this one wont get fixed.

In actuality, the warrantee, delivered with every stove, does a fair job of spelling out whats covered and what isnt....unfortunately, most folks just dont take the time to read it.

We try to do business within a reasonable distance...that distance being the area we are willing to service, and be able to do so adequately. Ive shipped parts before as well, but Harman really frowns upon dealers selling units and not servicing them.