Zero Clearance long burn times?

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avro

New Member
Aug 1, 2021
8
Ontario
Insurance wont allow a free standing stove. I would like to install a zero clearance wood insert but can not find anything that comes close to blaze king Princess insert. Blaze King currently has no zero clearance models. Installing masonry would cost close to 10k so out of budget. So with my research I found two models with up to 12 hour burn time, the Fireplace Extraordinaire Apex 42 and Lopi Hybrid Fyre large flush wood model. Can these actually get 12 hours out of them? any first hand experience? any other model out there to consider?
 

begreen

Mooderator
Staff member
Nov 18, 2005
90,606
South Puget Sound, WA
A zero-clearance fireplace is not an insert, in spite of industry marketing sometimes calling it that. This is important because of the two units you mention, only the Apex 42 is a ZC fireplace. The Hybrid Fyre large is an insert that goes into (inserts) an existing masonry fireplace.

Look at the Astria Montecito Estate. It qualifies for the 26% tax credit on the entire installation and has a good long burntime. This is also sold as the Superior WCT6940.
 

avro

New Member
Aug 1, 2021
8
Ontario
Thanks Begreen, Actually the install has to be a zero clearance, so in this case the only one I found was the Apex, the Astria looks like an insert?
 

begreen

Mooderator
Staff member
Nov 18, 2005
90,606
South Puget Sound, WA
The Montecito Estate is a ZC fireplace and the only one to qualify for the Federal tax credit that I know of. This is a catalytic fireplace.
 

avro

New Member
Aug 1, 2021
8
Ontario
The Montecito Estate is a ZC fireplace and the only one to qualify for the Federal tax credit that I know of. This is a catalytic fireplace.

Thanks a good option to look into, what would the realistic burn time on low look like for the Montecito Estate ?
 
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begreen

Mooderator
Staff member
Nov 18, 2005
90,606
South Puget Sound, WA
A 12 hr burntime on low is a realistic expectation with this huge firebox.
 

avro

New Member
Aug 1, 2021
8
Ontario
A 12 hr burntime on low is a realistic expectation with this huge firebox.

12 hours looks real good, do you have this one personally? since this model is a double door are there any issues with the doors sagging not sealing and dirty glass like the Napoleon models?
 

begreen

Mooderator
Staff member
Nov 18, 2005
90,606
South Puget Sound, WA
No, I don't have one. The EPA testing got an 8hr burntime with a 20# load of doug fir. This fireplace's 4 cu ft capacity can hold well over double that amount. If burning good hardwood, 12 hrs on low should not be an issue. However, this is relative to heat demand. One should note that the burntime for ALL stoves and fireplaces is dependent on a lot of variables like quality of wood, draft, catalyst condition, user operation, etc. The most common variable is the heat loss of the house. If it is 0ºF outside and the stove/fireplace is being pushed hard for heat, then it is going to consume fuel faster. Even a cat stove that gets 20hr burntime on low can have an 8 hr burntime when pushed for more heat.

This model fireplace has been out for a while. It was sold under the Lennox brand before IHP took it over and marketed it under the Astria brand.
 

BKVP

Minister of Fire
How about RSF? They make some amazing factory-built wood fireplaces.
 

avro

New Member
Aug 1, 2021
8
Ontario
I just made a discovery on the Blaze King manual it states it can be installed in a ZC factory built open fireplace. I might be leaning for this option since burn times are far greater. The question is how large of a ZC open fireplace is needed to install the flue and fresh air intake. Would 4 inches be enough all around to reach in and fasten the connections?
 

bholler

Chimney sweep
Staff member
Jan 14, 2014
26,136
central pa
I just made a discovery on the Blaze King manual it states it can be installed in a ZC factory built open fireplace. I might be leaning for this option since burn times are far greater. The question is how large of a ZC open fireplace is needed to install the flue and fresh air intake. Would 4 inches be enough all around to reach in and fasten the connections?
You are going to spend way more money going that way and honestly there are quite a few downsides to that approach in addition to cost
 

BKVP

Minister of Fire
And as I type this, UL and ULC are updating wording that will prohibit any wood or pellet insert to be installed into a factory built fireplace. Our manuals are being updated to reflect this change.
 

begreen

Mooderator
Staff member
Nov 18, 2005
90,606
South Puget Sound, WA
And as I type this, UL and ULC are updating wording that will prohibit any wood or pellet insert to be installed into a factory built fireplace. Our manuals are being updated to reflect this change.
That deserves a repeat, in a separate posting. It will have a big effect on some insert sales.
 

bholler

Chimney sweep
Staff member
Jan 14, 2014
26,136
central pa
And as I type this, UL and ULC are updating wording that will prohibit any wood or pellet insert to be installed into a factory built fireplace. Our manuals are being updated to reflect this change.
Finally
 

Highbeam

Minister of Fire
Dec 28, 2006
19,323
Mt. Rainier Foothills, WA
How about shopping for a new insurance company so that you can get the wood burner that you want?
 

avro

New Member
Aug 1, 2021
8
Ontario
That deserves a repeat, in a separate posting. It will have a big effect on some insert sales.

I can confirm that, I just spoke to Blaze King and that wording is to be removed in future manuals since ULS-S610 can not be respected between the insert and open fireplace. So in this case is the Montecito Estate the way to go for a ZC with longest burn times?
 

begreen

Mooderator
Staff member
Nov 18, 2005
90,606
South Puget Sound, WA
I can confirm that, I just spoke to Blaze King and that wording is to be removed in future manuals since ULS-S610 can not be respected between the insert and open fireplace. So in this case is the Montecito Estate the way to go for a ZC with longest burn times?
How important is the 26% tax credit on the whole installation? If not, there are other good ZC companies, but the Montecito Estate with its huge firebox, catalytic operation is a strong contender. I agree with Chris that RSF would also be worth a look at.
 

stoveliker

Minister of Fire
Nov 17, 2019
1,953
Long Island NY
I can confirm that, I just spoke to Blaze King and that wording is to be removed in future manuals since ULS-S610 can not be respected between the insert and open fireplace. So in this case is the Montecito Estate the way to go for a ZC with longest burn times?

lol. BKVP is the Blaze King Vice President. Good that his company confirmed his remarks ;lol
 
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avro

New Member
Aug 1, 2021
8
Ontario
How important is the 26% tax credit on the whole installation? If not, there are other good ZC companies, but the Montecito Estate with its huge firebox, catalytic operation is a strong contender. I agree with Chris that RSF would also be worth a look at.

The credit doesn't apply where I am in Canada. Ill look into the RSF as well. Thanks for the support
 

begreen

Mooderator
Staff member
Nov 18, 2005
90,606
South Puget Sound, WA
The credit doesn't apply where I am in Canada. Ill look into the RSF as well. Thanks for the support
OK, that makes a difference, though the Montecito Estate is made by BIS in Quebec. RSF is also Canadian made and they have a wide selection of fireplaces including some cat models. Look at their fireplaces with a 3.0 cu ft firebox or larger. The Opel 3 plus is catalytic with a 3.6 cu ft capacity. Another Canadian fireplace is the Pacific Energy's FP30 a non-cat using the Summit firebox. We have the same firebox in our Alderlea. It will go 12 hrs on a low burn. During shoulder season I run the stove on 12 hr refill cycles. In colder weather, I switch to 8 hr refill cycles.
 

begreen

Mooderator
Staff member
Nov 18, 2005
90,606
South Puget Sound, WA
Note that for any stove or fireplace, the maximum burn time is going to vary with the chimney draft, home heat loss, climate, fuel type, user operation, etc. For this reason, I agree that it is worth checking out other insurance companies that do not have the freestanding exception. It will make the choice easier and much less expensive.
 

avro

New Member
Aug 1, 2021
8
Ontario
I have to say, I did have a Pacific Energy Summit and it was very reliable but only lasted about 6 hours of burn time on low. The FP30 doesn't have a cat from what I can see, would this be the way to go? less maintenance cost? There is a small rebate available if the fireplace is CSA B415.1-10 which I think this one has it. Not a factor but a bonus
 

begreen

Mooderator
Staff member
Nov 18, 2005
90,606
South Puget Sound, WA
Yes, it could get down to 6 hrs when pushing the stove for heat. We've been burning for 12+ years with the Alderlea. With a full load of doug fir I only refill twice a day until the temps drop into the 30s. . By 12 hrs the stove top is down to about 250º and there are still enough coals for a quick restart. But as noted, burn time is affected by a lot of variables. Ontario gets a lot colder than we do and the draft could be stronger.
 

BKVP

Minister of Fire
That deserves a repeat, in a separate posting. It will have a big effect on some insert sales.
Agreed. But wait until it's approved. I promise to update you once completed.
 
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