A Progress Hybrid Shoulder Season Burn

[Waulie]

There has been a lot of talk about how the Progress Hybrid cannot be run like a typical straight cat stove. This is very true, to a point. The distinction, at least for me, is that the PH can be run as a typical cat stove with loads up to about 70 percent full. Beyond that, and the secondary burn tends to take over for a couple/few hours which does eat into burn times and does cause a TON of heat.

In my opinion, this shouldn't necessarily be seen as a negative and it definately does not detract from it's possibilities as a shoulder season stove. I like to use as little wood as possible to keep my family warm. With the PH, this is achieved by utilizing the excellent efficiency and huge thermal mass of the stove while not putting in a stick more wood than what is needed.

This demostration will include a very typical, and mild temperature shoulder season burn for me. I know exactly what's going to happen because I'm done several of these already this fall, but I will document exactly what happens for the forum. Here are the specifics:

Today: High of 58, on and off rain, mostly cloudy, and very windy.
Tonight: Forcast low of 42, cloudy and rainy.
Tomorrow: Forcast high of 57, variable clouds.

My house is about 1,700 square feet, very open floor plan with cathedral ceilings. Average insulation for 1983 with a couple of drafts I'm still working on. Right now (9:05 pm) my thermometer says 70, but it is slow reacting and sits right next to the oven in which I broiled salmon for dinner an hour and a half ago (yum!). I'm going to say it's an average of 68 in here. I had a very similar fire last night under very similar weather conditions and at about the same time. My stove is still warm. My thermometer does not register that low, but it is probably around 100.

Here is a picture of what I'm predicting will keep my house between 68 and 72 until tomorrow night under the predicted weather conditions.


This is 10.5 pounds of wood (including 2X4 scrap as kindling). I did not weight the paper . The wood includes 2 ash rounds of 2 to 3 inches and three ash spilts between 2X4 and 3X3 all in the stack about 1.5 years.

Here is "all" that wood loaded up in the PH. Room to spare! Keep in mind, that paper appears to fill almost as much firebox as the wood.


And here is it burning after two minutes (fire lit at (9:18 pm). Excuse the brown glass. The glass does get brown under these burning conditions, but burns off clean with a nice hot fire.



I will update with a picture after I engage the cat and crank her down (which will show nothing but a almost completely dark firebox). But, I'll report exactly how long it takes to engage and temps along the way. Stay tuned (if you care)...

 

[BrowningBAR]

Nice post. How long do you expect a load like that to burn for under this setting? And what will the hottest temp be on the stove during this burn?

 

[Beetle-Kill]

No comment about performance. Just posting to say- That is one fine looking stove. I mean it.
Congrats.

 

[ScotO]

Nice stove, good description and pics of startup. Looking forward to the engagment pics and status.

 

[Waulie]

Sorry, I got sidetracked. But, pics and times are accurate. I engaged the cat at 9:42 pm with a top temp of 250. I definately could have engaged a bit earlier since top temps do lag (but I got sidetracked, remember?). Here is a pic pre-engage with top temp.



Here is a pic at 5 minutes after cat engage.


Sorry about the bright flash, but you can see mild secondaries up top.

The following pics are at 10:05 pm, about 20 minutes after cat engage. Still a bit of flame but you can't see it with the flash (wife's cheapo cam), which I'm actually a little surprised by tonight. They are completely dead as I type.





Top temp at that pic was 310. As I type, it is 310. Several hours from now it will be about 310. To answer some questions, this will be about the top temp. It may climb to 350 at the most. Honestly, I will be sleeping when it starts to drop, but I will report the temp when my eager toddlers wake me up way too early. Based on my experience, the stove top will about 250 after 8 hours of burning 10.5 pounds of wood. To me, this is pretty damn incredible. The best part is that in this weather with daytime temps much higher, this will be plently until the following evening. 700 pounds of stone will keep us warm with temps in the 50s.

Also, some people think you waste lots of heat bringing the stove up to temp. This is not true. Every BTU you put in to warm up the stove, you get out as the stove cools down. The only part you waste is the extra heat you send up the flue starting the fire with the draft open. With the Progress, this is minimal due to the long, winding exhaust path and heat exchanger fin. Someone (maybe I will) needs to record PH stack temps because I really think it will be enlightening.

 

[Waulie]

Unrelated, but I haven't seen anyone else post this yet. The cook top is the bomb!



Oh yeah, before I opened the top it was at 340 at 11:02 pm.

 

[Waulie]

I'm going to bed. Top temp is still at 340, which I think will be the max. A couple of details I left out:

Started the fire with the bypass open and draft full open (obviously).
After about 10 minutes, I closed the draft to about 60% open.
After about 15 minutes, I closed the draft a bit more maybe 50% open (or 50% closed depending on your disposition).
I closed the draft to about 30% open a minute before closing the bypass.
I closed the draft to a hair above completely closed a couple minutes after closing the bypass. That's where she'll sit until I build another fire.

 

[HollowHill]

Waulie, thank you very much for posting this. I've been experimenting with shoulder season burns and thought I wasn't doing things right, as the stove top temp never rose above 350. Normally when I engage the cat, I see the stove top temp really start to rise, not so with the burns I've had lately. It's stayed between 300 - 350. Thought maybe the cat wasn't working for some reason, possible culprit being the gasket tucked in around the cat (mine is disintegrating). Where do you have your thermometer at? Did you change location when you installed the cooktop?Very nice set up, btw. So, thanks again for the education, I feel much better

 

[Waulie]

So, the stove top was at 210 at 6:45 this morning. House is 70. I probably could have used another small split to get the house temp up another couple degrees. The winds were whipping all night which I wasn't counting on. We'll still be fine. The stove will still provide enough heat this morning until the sun gets up over the trees.

HH: My thermometer sits right over the cat on the stone just like always. Your temps seem right. Are you putting in a similiar amount of woo? What I put in the stove is just not very much wood so high temps aren't likely. If I opened the draft some, temps would definately climb higher. I still see the top temp climb rapidly after engaging the cat, it just doesn't rise that high with such a tiny amount of wood. Also, you may be noticing a bit of difference due to lower draft conditions in the warmer weather. If you doubt your cat, you can always do the old "look up at the chimney" trick. Sounds like everything is working great to me.

 

[binko]

Great post.
I noticed a little smoke staining on the bottom of the soapstone when you are showing the cooktop. Is there a little smoke that is seeping out from around the metal cooktop?

 

[HollowHill]

I'm using a top-down fire, and about the same amount of wood, maybe a little more. I moved my therm over to the cast iron to the left of the top vent oval, which, when I check temps with the IR therm, is not as high as right over the cat, so I think I will switch back to there. I have been waiting until stove top temp is 300 to engage cat, which doesn't leave much room for a rise in temp given that I top out at 340 or so. When I look at the chimney, I see a bit of smoke, hence my concern that cat wasn't lighting, along with the lack of temp rise. We're getting down to 36 tonite, so I'm planning on another fire. I'll try out your procedure and see how it goes!

Have you tried out the cooktop yet?

 

[Waulie]

I noticed a little smoke staining on the bottom of the soapstone when you are showing the cooktop. Is there a little smoke that is seeping out from around the metal cooktop?

Yeah I noticed that when I looked at the pic. It's not very visible in real life. I can't explain it. I have not smelled any smoke at all and that stain is odd in that goes right to edge of middle stone, but there is not a trace of any stain on the adjacent stone. I would think if it was a smoke seepage thing the adjacent stone should show some signs as well as they butt right up together. I'll pull the top today and see what I can see, but otherwise I guess I'll just keep my eye on it.

I figured out why we were a couple degrees cooler than I thought we would be this morning. The wind last night was only part of the story. I was doing some stinky work in the basement yesterday and left the windows wide open all night. Not a huge deal since the door to the basement was closed, but I'm sure that's where my missing couple degrees went.

Stove is still warm, house is 69 and it looks like 10.5 pounds of wood did the trick until this evening.

I have been waiting until stove top temp is 300 to engage cat, which doesn't leave much room for a rise in temp given that I top out at 340 or so.

Why are you waiting until 300 to engage the cat? Also, are your sure you're seeing smoke and not steam? I have had my cat stall out in these temps if I close the draft too much too fast, which I attribute to reduced draft from the warmer temps.

By the way, I wonder if anyone heard back from WS on the steel cats they sent back for testing? I can't remember who that was now. Tony maybe? Mine seems to be working great.

 

[chipsoflyin]

Im curious on the results of the cat testing also. Seems that at the end of last season, I had to run the cat probe temp upto 750 to get the cat to light where when first installed it would take off at 450. Having a ceramic option would be nice also

 

[HollowHill]

I wait until 300 trying to be sure that I have a high enough temp to engage. WS recommended going to 325 in this weather. There is an acrid smell when I go out to look at the chimney, so I am assuming smoke, but there is not much, so it may be steam. Also, I think some smoke is sneaking around my cat due to the less than adequate gasket. WS is sending me some more so that I can replace it. I sent my last cat in for testing, have heard nothing back on it.

 

[chipsoflyin]

That acrid smell is definitely smoke, I get that too when the cat stalls. HH, did you new cat respond faster when first installed

 

[Todd]

Nice post, good info. Many people tend to overdue it in the shoulder season by overfilling their stoves. Looks like you have it down pretty good. I wonder how this stove would do if you burned it similar to a masonry heater by filling it up full, burning it hot and let the mass of soapstone do it's thing?

Last I heard on the s/s cat issues that they have made some improvements and were testing both at Woodstock and the cat manufacture.

 

[Waulie]

Nice post, good info. Many people tend to overdue it in the shoulder season by overfilling their stoves. Looks like you have it down pretty good. I wonder how this stove would do if you burned it similar to a masonry heater by filling it up full, burning it hot and let the mass of soapstone do it's thing?

Last I heard on the s/s cat issues that they have made some improvements and were testing both at Woodstock and the cat manufacture.

Well, it definitely does function a bit like a masonry heater. The thing is though, in these kind of temps if you filled it full at got it good and hot, you'd roast. It's true you wouldn't need another fire for a good long time. In the cold of winter I've often thought about just letting the stove radiate for a good chunk of the day after a hot night burn. I'm sure it would work but then you might lose your coals and then you'd be looking at getting her up to temp again. In shoulder season, I don't mind building a fire a day but once it's cold I basically keep the stove top over 250 at all times.

It sounds like there are definite issues with the SS cats. I'm pretty happy with mine but it sure seems like many others are getting less than great results. You switched back to ceramic in your Keystone, didn't you?

 

[Todd]

It sounds like there are definite issues with the SS cats. I'm pretty happy with mine but it sure seems like many others are getting less than great results. You switched back to ceramic in your Keystone, didn't you?

When Woodstock asked me for my s/s cat they offered me either a s/s or ceramic replacement and I chose the ceramic. They were talking about testing some of these new cats out in the field and I did tell them I'd be happy to be one of their guinnea pigs but haven't heard anything back for quite some time.

 

[HollowHill]

That acrid smell is definitely smoke, I get that too when the cat stalls. HH, did you new cat respond faster when first installed

Yes, there was quite a difference. I was very happy with its performance for the rest of the season.

Oh, on rereading your query, I misinterpreted your question. Yes, I would have to say that it did respond more slowly as it aged... Don't we all

 

[Backwoods Savage]

Im curious on the results of the cat testing also. Seems that at the end of last season, I had to run the cat probe temp upto 750 to get the cat to light where when first installed it would take off at 450. Having a ceramic option would be nice also

No word back so far other than testing is being done. New cat still working great. We hit 710 last night. Good thing I got up and noticed it. No problem getting it back below 700. We had probably less wood in the Fireview than what Waulie had.

 

[Waulie]

WS recommended going to 325 in this weather. There is an acrid smell when I go out to look at the chimney, so I am assuming smoke, but there is not much, so it may be steam.

Yup, that is definitely smoke. I also get that on cat stall. That's weird about the 325 recommendation. Don't tell my cat!

We hit 710 last night. Good thing I got up and noticed it. No problem getting it back below 700. We had probably less wood in the Fireview than what Waulie had.

Woah! That's crazy Dennis. These are obviously two different beasts. The pis of my splits is a bit deceiving. They were pretty tiny. If I tried my best with that much wood in the PH, I'd maybe hit 450 for a minute then the wood would be gone.

I like your method since it means you don't have to constantly open the door to reload - so there is no smoke escaping the open door. I tend to baby the stove too much, building up the fire slowly.

I hope it helps! Yeah, I do get a bit of smoke spillage with these warm temps too and would rather not open the door. It's weird after coming from so many years with the old smoke dragons to never have to "mess" with the fire, but I will say I've grown used to it! Even when I'm starting a rather large fire, I do it this way.

Woodstock has tested a bunch of the old cats, and plans to make changes (new wash coat) based on user feedback. I think they have recognized the higher light off temps on some of the used combustors, and are making changes to address this.

I really haven't noticed higher light off temps. I mean they're higher than they were when it was brand new, but it seems to have settled in. What I have noticed is that it is more finicky with draft and will stall much more easily. How crappy that WS has to deal with this on top of typical new stove issues. I wonder why they made the switch to begin with? Cost I suppose, althought they do promote the benefits of SS quite a bit. Being my first cat stove I have nothing to compare it to.

 

[teutonicking]

When Woodstock asked me for my s/s cat they offered me either a s/s or ceramic replacement and I chose the ceramic. They were talking about testing some of these new cats out in the field and I did tell them I'd be happy to be one of their guinnea pigs but haven't heard anything back for quite some time.

Sorry if this has been posted before, but can you please elaborate on what Woodstock is saying about the cats? Are they considering a recall or replacement of the orignial Progress Hybrid cats, and if so, do we need to request that from them or are they planning on sending them to all of the original owners? I got mine in Dec. 2011.

 

[Backwoods Savage]

Teutonicking, a simple call to Woodstock will answer that question better than we can.

 

[Backwoods Savage]

Waulie, indeed the Fireview and Progress are two different beasts. We did intend on buying the Progress and even put a deposit on one but backed out. As you recall, last winter was a warm one so hard to compare but we did some remodeling last year and an addition too and thought we might still need a larger stove and I really was excited about the Progress. Now it just appears this Fireview is just about the perfect size for us.

We don't always get that hot of a stove especially with that little bit of wood but it surely is nice to know it will kick out the heat when needed. But this time it did cause us to get a bit toasty...

 

[Flamestead]

Thanks for the nice post, Waulie.

We've had a few small fires this year, and tonight a little larger one (about the size you've described). You've given me some good targets to shoot for - I left the damper open a lot more and for longer than you did (see the pretty flames!). Bypass closed at 300 degrees, flue temp (Condor probe) at 350 degrees. Stovetop got up to 350 and just sitting there (very boring the way this stove holds so steady for so long), flue at about 225 (all coals now).

37 degrees outside and still heading down. Feline on the rug, loving life.