Advice and Moral Support Requested for BK Install

[ValleyCottageSplitter]

Hey Guys,


I've had almost a year long struggle of getting a wood heater for my house. I'm getting increasingly impatient as the process has become more and more painful. Here is how the long story unfolded… (TL;DR: scroll down to the bottom for my questions)

I started off looking at putting in some type of insert into my zero clearance fireplace. I researched all sorts of models claiming to be "zero clearance" approved; looks like I could at least meet clearances and dimensions with the Enviro Venice 1200. The insurance would not cover it without a licensed contractor. I contacted dozens around here and the most safe install would be to replace the whole chimney. At least $5K+, it could not be restored to a fireplace, and how well would a 1.85cf insert heat 2400 sq ft? Overnight burns? In addition several shops said it was against code without specifying details. So...

I started looking at EPA Fireplaces! I called and called to get an idea about pricing. I checked all sorts of dimensions and clearances. The FPX42 looked great, but all said and done, it would be at least $12K, multiple contractors or dozens of hours figuring out how to become a master mason after a 60hr work week. At that price, it made sense just to leave in this crappy fireplace and put a stove in another room.

So I looked around until I decided to see what the fuss was about BK. Then I saw, 30hour burn times, thermostatically controlled intake?! BK Ashford is the stove for me! I thought, I can just put this in the dining room at the other side of the house, keep that room at 80°F and the rest of the house can hopefully stay cozy around 70°F. I could just run the pipe straight up through the closet upstairs. I got three quotes for the BK Ashford 30, but no one could install here.

Then I got someone over to quote the install and as we started measuring, it did not look like that venting could work through the closet. I told him it was recommended to run it through the house, he said, “Nope, we won’t mess with that. We’ll just run it straight outside and along the house. We do them all done that way”. I asked him about doing two 45’s out of the stove and he thought that was strange as well. These guys have been around 30yrs, top ratings, are NFI, CSIA, everything certified too, not a crappy small shop.

Then he plugged the numbers: 25’ SS double wall “best”, smoke pipe, 2-45’s, wall plate, adapter, T connection, wall bands, 2-15° elbows (around the roof edge), and SS raincap=$3800 parts+$550 install fee+$75 permit filing! Plus stove and stove pad! So now I’m close to pushing $9K for this install. And in February they came and told me a total stove install would start around $5K! They are obviously padding the parts cost so they don’t have to ask for a $2k install fee. In comparison, the BK dealer thought the install would be about $6500 if he could install here. I got a top of the line Trane Central A/C installed for $6500, how much could a woodstove cost?

On top of this, we have an efficient NG heating running about $800/yr and my wife is working in 250mi away now until she can get a decent job back up here. We planned to stay about 15 years but now there’s a chance we could be moving in 5. I’m just dreading the thought of just being cold huddling around our smokey ZC fireplace this winter.

So these are my main questions (check out the image for info):

· What are some options for running the stove pipe through my house? What is typical? Could it even go straight through a bedroom?

· If I run the pipe outside like they want (2-wall stainless insulated pipe), will it draft efficiently and not get excessive creosote?

· Does the location make sense? Or does someone see a better place to put it? It would look weird right next to the fireplace and I'd rather it be hottest in a less used room.

· Any estimate how well will this heat assuming about 2400 sq ft decently insulated house? (will I make much back?)

Thanks in advance if you care to ease this painful process.

 

[Sodbuster]

I struggled with your exact problem back in 2012, we moved into a house that had a Majestic builders special ZC fireplace. I have always put wood burning stoves in my homes, just for the piece of mind that no matter what happens, my family will be warm. After looking at several options, and talking to different dealers, I came to the conclusion that the only real solution was to completely tear out the ZC fireplace, make an alcove, and install a real wood burning stove. I believe that there are some members doing this as I type this. In the long run, you'll be happier, and you'll have a real stove to heat with. I personally don't like where the proposed BK would be installed, I believe the heat would run you right out of that room, and it would be hard to get the heat to the rest of the house. The nice thing about tearing out the ZC is that you can build whatever clearances are necessary for the stove you want. I put a PE Summit in mine, and with the 3.0 cu ft firebox, I'm heating 2900 sq ft. The prices you are being quoted are off the charts high, you are installing a stove during peak season, and there will be be no bargains. If you are at all handy, that ZC will come out in a matter of hours with a sawzalll, angle grinder with metal cutting blade and a BFH. Then you need to frame in a chimney support, pulll the old ZC liner and you are ready to set your stove. After you finish the alcove with whatever finished look you are going for. Check with some local chimney sweeps as well, many of them will install the chimney on a stove you have set. Just bear in mind, clearances, framing for chimney support , and other specs are almost always brand specific for both stove and chimney, so do your homework. Also, with regard to your insurance company; do some checking around. Some companies avoid them like the plague, others are very easy going. All I had to do was take a picture of the install, and send them a PDF of the manual showing the set backs. No premium increase at all.

 

[Poindexter]

You have a handful for sure.

1. Does the $800 annual for NG include the hotwater heater?

2. How many therms or btus are you getting for your 800?

3. How much warmer would you like your house to be?

I think you are probably looking at 5-6k heating degree days annually, in a home that is probably 4 star energy efficient, maybe 3+.

4. What is your street price for a cord of hardwood delivered as green cut to length splits?

My best guess is your chimney install prices are more or less market, you are probably chugging through 120-150 Mbtu annually, youll probably be able to replace maybe 75M of those, burn possibly 100 Mbtu annually in a warmer home and be looking at ten years of toting wood from the driveway to the drying rack and then to the stove to break even.

You can cancel your gym membership but you will probably be buying a splitter.

Maybe 20 years to break even. If youre replacing half your natural gas use you will only have $400 annually to be spending on cord wood, splitter depreciation and 'savings'.

I think you are right on the cusp for internal chase v- external chimney. More expensive to chase out part of your second floor, but more efficient every time you light the stove.

@bholler , if it is legal, would it be stupid for this guy to stick a pellet stove on the floor in front of his zc and run the pellet pipe up inside his existing stack?

Agree with sodbuster above re just ditching the zc and doing it right - if it makes economic sense to lift a finger.

I think most of us could get a chimney put in for less money than the OP is looking at - but he is probably paying less for NG than anyone on here.

Best wishes and good luck to the OP.

 

[begreen]

The price could be pared down a bit with some work done by yourself if that is an option. The proposed location for the stove is not great. It will heat the room very quickly and not much else if that is a conventional doorway. It would be better to locate it in the larger space if possible.

If you are thinking of moving out in 5 yrs then I'd focus on resale. Your heating bills are not so bad that living with the existing setup is going to break the bank. At least you have a fireplace and for homebuyers that will be a plus, the freestanding stove in a small room will not be a big selling point.

PS: I don't agree with the installer, csia certified or not. You are right to try for a straight-up install.

PPS: What is the make and model of the ZC fireplace?

 

[bholler]

You have a handful for sure.

1. Does the $800 annual for NG include the hotwater heater?

2. How many therms or btus are you getting for your 800?

3. How much warmer would you like your house to be?

I think you are probably looking at 5-6k heating degree days annually, in a home that is probably 4 star energy efficient, maybe 3+.

4. What is your street price for a cord of hardwood delivered as green cut to length splits?

My best guess is your chimney install prices are more or less market, you are probably chugging through 120-150 Mbtu annually, youll probably be able to replace maybe 75M of those, burn possibly 100 Mbtu annually in a warmer home and be looking at ten years of toting wood from the driveway to the drying rack and then to the stove to break even.

You can cancel your gym membership but you will probably be buying a splitter.

Maybe 20 years to break even. If youre replacing half your natural gas use you will only have $400 annually to be spending on cord wood, splitter depreciation and 'savings'.

I think you are right on the cusp for internal chase v- external chimney. More expensive to chase out part of your second floor, but more efficient every time you light the stove.

@bholler , if it is legal, would it be stupid for this guy to stick a pellet stove on the floor in front of his zc and run the pellet pipe up inside his existing stack?

Agree with sodbuster above re just ditching the zc and doing it right - if it makes economic sense to lift a finger.

I think most of us could get a chimney put in for less money than the OP is looking at - but he is probably paying less for NG than anyone on here.

Best wishes and good luck to the OP.

That may be possible in fact it probably is but I can't say for sure without being there

 

[ValleyCottageSplitter]

Thanks guys, the feedback is much appreciated.

After looking at several options, and talking to different dealers, I came to the conclusion that the only real solution was to completely tear out the ZC fireplace, make an alcove, and install a real wood burning stove.
To be honest, both of us are really not a fan of the whole fireplace to alcove design. So I think I would rather get a FPX42 which I got quoted around $8500. It sounds like either way I would have to do some serious demo work and mason work. We like hearth wall we have now too and it would be a pity to destroy.

Also, with regard to your insurance company; do some checking around.
Yep, they had no problem with an insert or stove if done by licensed installer. I just need to tell them if I install a freestanding stove and it will add about $10/yr to insurance.

You have a handful for sure.

1. Does the $800 annual for NG include the hotwater heater? 2. How many therms or btus are you getting for your 800?
I have a spreadsheet where I calculated everything. I averaged the NG during the non-heating months and removed that. So 2016 I paid $901.01 in NG heating costs, with 729 CCF or about 75.6 MBTU.

3. How much warmer would you like your house to be?
We have 3/4 zones individually controlled by programmable thermostats. That might be part of why we aren't using much gas. We keep them around 68-70, but may raise that 72 with free wood. If you ask my wife she'd probably say 75 :|

4. What is your street price for a cord of hardwood delivered as green cut to length splits?
I think around $225. I don't plan to buy any. I've got 4 cords almost all split and stacked from this year. Half oak/hickory, half maple/ash. About 1 cord ash will be ready this winter. Seems like I could get 3+/yr.

The price could be pared down a bit with some work done by yourself if that is an option. The proposed location for the stove is not great. It will heat the room very quickly and not much else if that is a conventional doorway. It would be better to locate it in the larger space if possible.
Any sense sticking it in the foyer and use the central air ducts to blow it through all the rooms? The intake is right above. This dining room has one 5' opening and one 30" opening. I was definitely planning on a fan kit if it helps...


If you are thinking of moving out in 5 yrs then I'd focus on resale. Your heating bills are not so bad that living with the existing setup is going to break the bank. At least you have a fireplace and for homebuyers that will be a plus, the freestanding stove in a small room will not be a big selling point.
So maybe I should just wait it out another year to get everything settled... That's what I'm starting to think about. It's just hard after spending most of my free time doing research and collecting wood.

PS: I don't agree with the installer, csia certified or not. You are right to try for a straight-up install.

PPS: What is the make and model of the ZC fireplace?
Heatilator HB42AI

 

[begreen]

PPS: What is the make and model of the ZC fireplace?
Heatilator HB42AI

In that case I'd contact Heatilator support. You may be able to install a Heatilator or Quadrafire insert into this fireplace with a stainless liner. That would be simpler if permissible

 

[ValleyCottageSplitter]

PPS: What is the make and model of the ZC fireplace?
Heatilator HB42AI

In that case I'd contact Heatilator support. You may be able to install a Heatilator or Quadrafire insert into this fireplace with a stainless liner. That would be simpler if permissible

Yes... we went through this about 6 months ago. I did contact HHT but I didn't get a perfectly clear answer. Those inserts would be so small I don't know if it's worth it. Very few shops would install an insert in this thing and some of them convinced me to shy away.

 

[Sodbuster]

Yes... we went through this about 6 months ago. I did contact HHT but I didn't get a perfectly clear answer. Those inserts would be so small I don't know if it's worth it. Very few shops would install an insert in this thing and some of them convinced me to shy away.

So $900 per heating season for natural gas, correct? I consider November -March the true heating season where I live, (MI). At 180 per month for natural gas, and an install price of $8500 for the insert, I would, and I shudder to say this, stay with your current set up. Now you haven't said what temperature you keep your house at with the NG. When I put my stove in, we were on Propane, paying $800 per month. My stove paid for itself in a year and a half.

 

[BrotherBart]

The cost of this ordeal would pay to heat the joint with NG for a long time. If it were me, unless I missed something in the thread, I would just keep heating with gas. I love wood burning but...

 

[jetsam]

The current fireplace location looks like a much better spot for a heater than the proposed stove room.

Can't you rip that thing out and put a stove there?

 

[begreen]

The cost of this ordeal would pay to heat the joint with NG for a long time. If it were me, unless I missed something in the thread, I would just keep heating with gas. I love wood burning but...

Yes, if I was thinking of selling within 5 yrs. I'd stick with the gas heat too. Burn a wood fire when you feel the need in the ZC and be happy.

 

[Sodbuster]

The current fireplace location looks like a much better spot for a heater than the proposed stove room.

Can't you rip that thing out and put a stove there?

He could jetsam, but doesn't care for the look of an alcove install. Unfortunately that is really the only option when tearing out a ZC and adding a free standing stove, and keeping with the proper clearances.