Anyone planning on buying a pre-2020 wood stove in 2020?

begreen

Mooderator
Staff member
Nov 18, 2005
84,210
South Puget Sound, WA
stovelark are you still at Preston or at another location now?
 

cleetus

New Member
Dec 3, 2019
2
NE
Out here in the west I’m close to Pacific Energy, Blaze king, and Regency. Most where offering 10-20%off this fall to clear out the old stock. The only good deal I saw was on a Regency 5100 .
I found a great deal on a F5100 at a local dealer for 2900 out the door. I should have it this weekend. I asked the difference between the 5100 and 5200 and they said nothing has changed just the name for new epa requirements.
 
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stovelark

Minister of Fire
Oct 10, 2009
1,501
SE CT
Hi BG- Unfortunately for me, the owner had an issue with me and another employee, I lost out. I did manage to get on with a larger company in RI, I'm an ops mgr there. I don't do a lot of sales anymore, I am a paper pusher, ordering and scheduling, resolving install and service issues and such. Nice company to be with, always forward thinking and planning. Wood stoves are a small part of the business, its 75 percent gas and wood fireplace installs from Hearth and Home Technology. Harman is our main pellet line.
 

begreen

Mooderator
Staff member
Nov 18, 2005
84,210
South Puget Sound, WA
Hi BG- Unfortunately for me, the owner had an issue with me and another employee, I lost out. I did manage to get on with a larger company in RI, I'm an ops mgr there. I don't do a lot of sales anymore, I am a paper pusher, ordering and scheduling, resolving install and service issues and such. Nice company to be with, always forward thinking and planning. Wood stoves are a small part of the business, its 75 percent gas and wood fireplace installs from Hearth and Home Technology. Harman is our main pellet line.
Always good to hear from you. Sorry about the split, but I am glad you are doing well. Any thoughts on HHTs making some stoves with no user air control like the new VC Montpelier II? I'm hoping this is not a trend with their stoves.
 
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mar13

Feeling the Heat
Nov 5, 2018
277
California redwood coast
In Canada we adopt the CSA B415 emissions standards. This CSA standard is the same as the EPA at a max of 2.5 g/hr.

Montreal just implemented the standards a year early, and required all old non EPA 2020 compliant appliances to be replaced with new versions due to poor air quality.

Most other jurisdictions in Canada have allowed all older appliance to remain in operation, just new ones must comply with the new standards.
Wow, I was surprised that they even banned more recent non2020 equivalent stoves. I doubted, so Googled. That must have caused some controversy. I wonder how they'll do enforcement. http://ville.montreal.qc.ca/portal/page?_pageid=7418,76005736&_dad=portal&_schema=PORTAL
 

Newburnerwisconsin

Feeling the Heat
Jul 8, 2015
479
wisconsin
Hi Rosem, oh yeah forot Greenville- yes its approved, we just recently got her back on the floor. Hope the Carrabassett gets through, she is a heat-beast!
Do you know for sure if Jotul is going to test a new Carrabassett? Would really like to see that stove come back.
 

webby3650

Master of Fire
Sep 2, 2008
10,940
Indiana
If the stove is 2020 approved it doesn’t matter when it sells. Any non 2020 must be sold prior to May 15, 2020.
 

webby3650

Master of Fire
Sep 2, 2008
10,940
Indiana
I see now that my post was very late. Thanks to the new hearth.com format the alert for this conversation just came through...
 

BKVP

Minister of Fire
Always good to hear from you. Sorry about the split, but I am glad you are doing well. Any thoughts on HHTs making some stoves with no user air control like the new VC Montpelier II? I'm hoping this is not a trend with their stoves.
Look at the rule BeGreen. Single burn rate heaters are not put through the same rigorous testing.
 
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begreen

Mooderator
Staff member
Nov 18, 2005
84,210
South Puget Sound, WA
Look at the rule BeGreen. Single burn rate heaters are not put through the same rigorous testing.
Yeah, dumb rule. Instead the homeowner does the testing
 

BKVP

Minister of Fire
Yeah, dumb rule. Instead the homeowner does the testing
Yes indeed. The very fact that there is no sell through for retailers was a huge miss by EPA.

For single burn rate units, you regulate the heat output by the amount of fuel put into the unit.

The good news is the rule will be opened in the couple of years, for 2023 compliance. Hope they correct a number of issues then.

BKVP
 
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Williej

New Member
Dec 24, 2019
8
Montreal
Wow, I was surprised that they even banned more recent non2020 equivalent stoves. I doubted, so Googled. That must have caused some controversy. I wonder how they'll do enforcement. http://ville.montreal.qc.ca/portal/page?_pageid=7418,76005736&_dad=portal&_schema=PORTAL
Enforcement is done based on complaints. There aren't enough inspectors (and outside of visually looking at amount of smoke coming out of chimneys, how would one know whether the fireplace is compliant with the regulation?) so that is the only way to do determine enforcement. The fines are heavy though. According to our installer they think many people aren't complying but it is hard to know. Apparently the big city to the north, Laval, is also regulating the same way.
What I don't understand from your post above is what the difference is between a non 2020 equivalent and a 2020 stove. We bought an EPA certified stove that complies with the Montreal regulations. So how would one know if is compliant with 2020 regulation? Thanks.
 

BKVP

Minister of Fire
Enforcement is done based on complaints. There aren't enough inspectors (and outside of visually looking at amount of smoke coming out of chimneys, how would one know whether the fireplace is compliant with the regulation?) so that is the only way to do determine enforcement. The fines are heavy though. According to our installer they think many people aren't complying but it is hard to know. Apparently the big city to the north, Laval, is also regulating the same way.
What I don't understand from your post above is what the difference is between a non 2020 equivalent and a 2020 stove. We bought an EPA certified stove that complies with the Montreal regulations. So how would one know if is compliant with 2020 regulation? Thanks.
In the USA, EPA requires us as manufacturers to place specific wording on the permanent label. When the EPA rule came out in March of 2015, we were require to specifically state:

EPA.JPG


As for the enforcement side, each province or state has the option certainly has the option of conducting NOV's (notice of violation) by a few common methods. In one or more communities in WA state, they used night time digital images, date stamped and then mailed to the homeowner with the NOV. They provide an off-ramp to the financial penalty, usually taking a class in proper wood collection, MC testing etc., or dispose of the offending appliance and get an incentive to get a cleaner burning appliance. Homeowners that repeat, they get hammered!

In FNSB in Alaska, they have trained observers that use Ringleman charts to gauge opacity. The too issued NOV's with off-ramps.
 

begreen

Mooderator
Staff member
Nov 18, 2005
84,210
South Puget Sound, WA
I find it amazing that in the past decade and a half that we have not seen people posting here saying that they were nabbed by the clean air patrol and must upgrade their stove. Could be my memory but I think there was only one in the past 15 yrs.? I could pick out several in our community alone.
 

BKVP

Minister of Fire
I find it amazing that in the past decade and a half that we have not seen people posting here saying that they were nabbed by the clean air patrol and must upgrade their stove. Could be my memory but I think there was only one in the past 15 yrs.? I could pick out several in our community alone.
So in order to trigger this type of enforcement in the USA, the area usually has been classified as "not in attainment" by EPA. The state then sends off a SIP, (state implementation plan) to EPA and that typically has a list of avenues the state will employ to reach attainment. Enforcement, stove change outs, education etc are usually on the list.

Enforcement was possible in the past, just not many folks have an appetite for it! BeGreen, at one time a certain community in WA suggested have the fire department guys serve the NOV's. The fire department response, "We're the good guys. We don't want to be know as the guys that issue tickets."

I must say the NOV's do in fact work. With equal amounts of enforcement, year to year, the number of NOV's drop each year. Typically because it's the extreme offenders that get pushed into compliance.
 

BKVP

Minister of Fire
This may belong in it's own thread, but there are some general catch-all's in the Federal law. As an example, if you have a neighbor that is burning a wood heater, insert or OWB (Outdoor wood boiler), many products were exempt for until 2015 yet they were and still are required to "operate the wood heater according to the manufacturer's instructions in the Owners & Operators Manual." A few folks have been able to get heavy offenders to address their over polluting wood heaters by using general or broad portions of the rule.

As of March 2015, there are no exempt wood burning products. The term used is "covered products" meaning if they are covered by part or section of the CAA, NSPS 2015.
 

mar13

Feeling the Heat
Nov 5, 2018
277
California redwood coast
Yes, sorry about veering this thread from its original topic. I'm in favor of this being moved to its own thread. I find it interesting to learn about, and I suspect this can get some strong opinions.
 

Williej

New Member
Dec 24, 2019
8
Montreal
Not necessarily it depends on the model you have.

At first the City of Montreal had to look at the old EPA regulations to decide whether or not to allow the appliance to be installed as most appliances weren't tested to 2020 standards yet. So if an appliance was certified to meet or exceed the old 4.5 g/hr spec but its rating was less than 2.5 g/hr it was allowed while not actually being tested to the 2020 standards.
Sorry, am not sure I understand that sentence in bold. What are the 2020 standards if it is a rating of less than 2.5 g/hr? Isn't the 2020 standard less than 2.5 g/hr? What I understood from Montreal regulations is that it has to have a rating of less than 2.5 g/hr. So what is the 4.5 g/hr spec?
 

ABMax24

Feeling the Heat
Sorry, am not sure I understand that sentence in bold. What are the 2020 standards if it is a rating of less than 2.5 g/hr? Isn't the 2020 standard less than 2.5 g/hr? What I understood from Montreal regulations is that it has to have a rating of less than 2.5 g/hr. So what is the 4.5 g/hr spec?
4.5g/hr is the old EPA spec. The 2.5g/hr spec comes into effect this year.

The city of Montreal did this to allow some grace for stove buyers. At the time of their new regulations very few appliances had been certified to EPA 2020. But there were many appliances that were certified to the old standard of 4.5g/hr but actually had emissions of less than 2.5g/hr, these were then granted acceptance for use.

It's basically a technicality in the interpretation of the rules. As of May new stoves that don't have the EPA 2020 certification can't be sold in the US and many parts of Canada. Even though some of these old appliances that can't be sold are appliances that have emissions of less than 2.5g/hr when they were certified to the old standard.
 

Williej

New Member
Dec 24, 2019
8
Montreal
4.5g/hr is the old EPA spec. The 2.5g/hr spec comes into effect this year.

The city of Montreal did this to allow some grace for stove buyers. At the time of their new regulations very few appliances had been certified to EPA 2020. But there were many appliances that were certified to the old standard of 4.5g/hr but actually had emissions of less than 2.5g/hr, these were then granted acceptance for use.

It's basically a technicality in the interpretation of the rules. As of May new stoves that don't have the EPA 2020 certification can't be sold in the US and many parts of Canada. Even though some of these old appliances that can't be sold are appliances that have emissions of less than 2.5g/hr when they were certified to the old standard.
Thanks. A bit strange if a stove has less that 2.5 but only is certified to 4.5. Why couldn't they be certified at less than 2.5 is that is in fact what their emissions are? Thanks for your patience on this as I am trying to understand this complex regulation.
 

Williej

New Member
Dec 24, 2019
8
Montreal
Thanks. A bit strange if a stove has less that 2.5 but only is certified to 4.5. Why couldn't they be certified at less than 2.5 is that is in fact what their emissions are? Thanks for your patience on this as I am trying to understand this complex regulation.
Also, is the emissions of less than 2.5 g/hr based on emissions with the converter engaged or if it is not engaged? Thanks.
 

bholler

Chimney sweep
Staff member
Jan 14, 2014
22,130
central pa
Thanks. A bit strange if a stove has less that 2.5 but only is certified to 4.5. Why couldn't they be certified at less than 2.5 is that is in fact what their emissions are? Thanks for your patience on this as I am trying to understand this complex regulation.
It is a different testing procedure than before.
 

bholler

Chimney sweep
Staff member
Jan 14, 2014
22,130
central pa
Also, is the emissions of less than 2.5 g/hr based on emissions with the converter engaged or if it is not engaged? Thanks.
If it has a cat it would be tested with it engaged because that is how the stove is meant to be burned
 

CreosoteCowboy

New Member
Jun 1, 2019
52
MN
At a bit of a tangent, but is anyone else a bit bewildered by the EPA's focus on stove emissions?

I'm all for effective environmental regulations, and when I was recently stove shopping I initially thought I'd definitely go for the cleanest stove possible. Then I realized that a decrease from 4.5 to 2.5 g/hr is obviously 2 g/hr, or 48 grams per day if burning 24 hrs/day.

Per the EPA, the average passenger car emits 411 grams of CO2 per mile, so that reducing one mile of driving accounts for more than a week's worth of reduction in stove emission from this new regulation.

I get that we don't want people burning tires in outdoor boilers and such, but worrying about exactly how clean modern stoves are burning while allowing unlimited driving seems to be a matter of misplaced priorities.
 
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ABMax24

Feeling the Heat
At a bit of a tangent, but is anyone else a bit bewildered by the EPA's focus on stove emissions?

I'm all for effective environmental regulations, and when I was recently stove shopping I initially thought I'd definitely go for the cleanest stove possible. Then I realized that a decrease from 4.5 to 2.5 g/hr is obviously 2 g/hr, or 48 grams per day if burning 24 hrs/day.

Per the EPA, the average passenger car emits 411 grams of CO2 per mile, so that reducing one mile of driving accounts for more than a week's worth of reduction in stove emission from this new regulation.

I get that we don't want people burning tires in outdoor boilers and such, but worrying about exactly how clean modern stoves are burning while allowing unlimited driving seems to be a matter of misplaced priorities.
The EPA are regulating the amount of PM (Particulate Matter) that can be emitted from an appliance not the amount of CO2.

In the same way they implemented stringent PM emissions regulations on on-road diesel engines in 2008. I believe the current standard for these engines is max 0.01g/hp-hr. So assuming a 450hp diesel truck could run at full output for an hour, it would put out less than 4.5 grams of PM in that hour.

PM is a serious concern for air quality and a cause of many respiratory illnesses including cancer.