Anyone planning on buying a pre-2020 wood stove in 2020?

bholler

Chimney sweep
Staff member
Jan 14, 2014
21,908
central pa
At a bit of a tangent, but is anyone else a bit bewildered by the EPA's focus on stove emissions?

I'm all for effective environmental regulations, and when I was recently stove shopping I initially thought I'd definitely go for the cleanest stove possible. Then I realized that a decrease from 4.5 to 2.5 g/hr is obviously 2 g/hr, or 48 grams per day if burning 24 hrs/day.

Per the EPA, the average passenger car emits 411 grams of CO2 per mile, so that reducing one mile of driving accounts for more than a week's worth of reduction in stove emission from this new regulation.

I get that we don't want people burning tires in outdoor boilers and such, but worrying about exactly how clean modern stoves are burning while allowing unlimited driving seems to be a matter of misplaced priorities.
That 4.5 and 2.5 is only particulate matter emmisions. So co2 doesn't enter into it at all. And untill recently we had been slowly reducing emmisions from vehicles. But that was ended.
 

CreosoteCowboy

New Member
Jun 1, 2019
52
MN
I hadn't thought about those with breathing issues, which I can see being an important issue.

Looking around though, it actually sounds like mixed particulate emissions are less-bad than C02 from a climate perspective.

Here from Yale's e360 project: https://e360.yale.edu/features/carl_zimmer_black_carbon_and_global_warming_worse_than_thought

If black carbon is responsible for trapping so much heat, then reducing soot may be an effective way to slow down the planet’s warming. It’s even more attractive because black carbon washes quickly out of the atmosphere, and so reducing soot emissions would lead to a fast fall in the concentration of black carbon in the atmosphere. Carbon dioxide, by contrast, lingers for centuries in the atmosphere.

James Hansen of the Goddard Institute for Space Studies has been arguing for such a strategy for over a decade. But the new study reveals a paradox in reducing soot to fight global warming. If tomorrow we could shut down every brick kiln, every burning farm field, and every other source of soot, we would, on balance, have no effect on global warming whatsoever.
How can this be? Because when things burn, black carbon is not the only thing they produce. A forest fire produces black carbon as well as organic carbon molecules. The forest fire black carbon helps to warm the planet, but the organic carbon creates a haze that blocks sunlight, cooling the atmosphere. The two emissions cancel each other out. “In the real world you can’t just get rid of black carbon emissions,” says Doherty. “You get rid of other things as well.”

But Doherty and her colleagues found that some sources of soot — including coal and diesel fuel — produce a lot of warming with very little compensating cooling. They suggest that these sources should be the top priority for efforts to fight global warming.
Can you point me toward any sources that weigh the relative harm of auto emissions and wood stove emissions?
 

ABMax24

Feeling the Heat
This is Canada but gives a pretty good idea. 28.3% of our black carbon emissions come from residential wood combustion. Not a small number.


Emissions enforcement is one thing that really varies by jurisdiction though, in my province we are not required to keep the particulate filters on diesel vehicles, and a large portion of the diesel commercial vehicles and many pickups on the road have had them removed.
 

Zack R

Feeling the Heat
Sep 27, 2017
406
Sisters, OR
flic.kr
I really want a Jotul F 55, but none of the local dealers have one in stock. Jotul is doing one more batch but they want $2,800 for them. That seems like a lot for what others have paid for them. I found a dealer in Pennsylvania who is selling one for $2,000 but it's not really cost effective to drive that far to get it.

Does Jotul plan on having a 2020 replacement for the F 55?
$2,800 for an F55 is just a touch more than I paid in August:

1578346171051.png


I recall hearing that the 2020 requirements are actually not as tough as initially thought, something about testing with cord wood instead of crib wood... and that most of the existing EPA stoves will still pass. This was just me bantering with the installer/shop owner so I'm not sure what the actual repercussions will be.
 

TheDogsCar

New Member
Feb 12, 2020
4
NY
I have been looking to upgrade the wood stove I bought last Spring. Been following this thread, but it has been pretty quiet ...

I took the recommendation to stop by my local Stove Dealer today (the only one left). He told me they will have 4 stoves going clearance, but not until March. He also told me not to expect too much of a discount, because the Manufacturers buy back their inventory. I asked what they will do with it come April, and he said sell it to 'Garage Dealers'. Turns out those ads on Craigslist/Facebook by 'Contractors' that claim a client could not use the stove they ordered, so 'their loss is your gain' ... really are liquidators. They sell them second hand/'used' to get around the EPA rules, and Manufacturer will not have to Warranty them.
 

CreosoteCowboy

New Member
Jun 1, 2019
52
MN
I just talked with a couple guys from my local stove shop yesterday about sales. They said they're having trouble selling stoves because they're running very low on inventory. This is a store that last fall was displaying 30+ wood stoves, and I think they said they're down to three floor models.

They said the pre-2020 stuff is basically gone, and the new 2020 certified stuff has been in short supply and slow to ship. Sounds like they're in a bit of a tough spot at the moment.

So, the vibe I got was that they're definitely not worried about having to blow out inventory. Mostly they sounded like they needed stoves to show and sell.
 

Zerotonine

New Member
Jun 26, 2019
9
Minnesota
I took the recommendation to stop by my local Stove Dealer today (the only one left). He told me they will have 4 stoves going clearance, but not until March. He also told me not to expect too much of a discount, because the Manufacturers buy back their inventory. I asked what they will do with it come April, and he said sell it to 'Garage Dealers'.
That's probably the case for some. The better, more popular models are being picked up at discounts. The rest will have to shake out. As i understand it, remaining dealer stock will be rounded up and "destroyed", sort of like that Cash For Clunkers boondoggle that the feds dreamed up. Drilled out and rendered unusable.
All that intentional waste makes me want to believe the rumor I heard is true: that remaining 2020-noncompliant stock could be sold off to interests that will ship it to places that don't have lofty EPA standards. South America, China, etc. Small-timers flipping "used" stoves are sure to end up with some of them, too.

Turns out those ads on Craigslist/Facebook by 'Contractors' that claim a client could not use the stove they ordered, so 'their loss is your gain' ... really are liquidators. They sell them second hand/'used' to get around the EPA rules, and Manufacturer will not have to Warranty them.
Sometimes yes, sometimes no. A retailer cannot sell a used stove to a customer so easily, for they have liability concerns and anything less than New And Unfired casts a shadow, which is something that someone selling controlled abilty to play with fire cannot (and should not) abide. I'm sure another member here will be along that can explain that in better detail, perhaps someone who is in such a position.
 

bholler

Chimney sweep
Staff member
Jan 14, 2014
21,908
central pa
Manufacturers have had a long time to get ready for this most have stopped production of pre 2020 stoves quite a while ago. Most of what will be sold cheaply will be the display models. And no there is no huge store of stoves that will be shipped off to some other countries.
 

john26

Burning Hunk
Oct 27, 2008
216
jrshrum@yahoo.com
Back in October the local Napoleon dealer was offering non 2020 complaint stoves and inserts at $1k off list price.
I believe those were the displays I don't think they had much inventory they mostly sell gas fireplaces
 
Last edited:

john26

Burning Hunk
Oct 27, 2008
216
jrshrum@yahoo.com
I have been looking to upgrade the wood stove I bought last Spring. Been following this thread, but it has been pretty quiet ...

I took the recommendation to stop by my local Stove Dealer today (the only one left). He told me they will have 4 stoves going clearance, but not until March. He also told me not to expect too much of a discount, because the Manufacturers buy back their inventory. I asked what they will do with it come April, and he said sell it to 'Garage Dealers'. Turns out those ads on Craigslist/Facebook by 'Contractors' that claim a client could not use the stove they ordered, so 'their loss is your gain' ... really are liquidators. They sell them second hand/'used' to get around the EPA rules, and Manufacturer will not have to Warranty them.
Here's one of those garage dealers
fb market.PNG
 
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bholler

Chimney sweep
Staff member
Jan 14, 2014
21,908
central pa
Here's one of those garage dealers View attachment 256930
We have a few guys like that. But most are selling old stoves like the ones you have pictured. If either party got caught doing what you are saying with stoves that should have been destroyed the fines are really steep.
 

john26

Burning Hunk
Oct 27, 2008
216
jrshrum@yahoo.com
I don't think they are his stoves look like new old stock probably 40+ years old I tried to post a link but it would not let me.
 

bholler

Chimney sweep
Staff member
Jan 14, 2014
21,908
central pa
I don't think they are his stoves look like new old stock probably 40+ years old I tried to post a link but it would not let me.
I seriously doubt they are unused stoves as he claims.
 

john26

Burning Hunk
Oct 27, 2008
216
jrshrum@yahoo.com
Not sure a few pics appear that they maybe unused?
84617168_10214768719164132_8821900935228817408_o.jpg 83882073_10214768716244059_6568303269708300288_o.jpg
 

TheDogsCar

New Member
Feb 12, 2020
4
NY
Not feeling encouraged about getting a good deal from my local Stove Dealer, and the Home Depot's near me already sold out of large wood stoves ... I grabbed the last 50-SHSSW02 from my local Lowe's. $569 Delivered. Comes on Tuesday. Hoping to install it and burn off the paint before the next cold spell.
 

begreen

Mooderator
Staff member
Nov 18, 2005
83,687
South Puget Sound, WA
Not feeling encouraged about getting a good deal from my local Stove Dealer, and the Home Depot's near me already sold out of large wood stoves ... I grabbed the last 50-SHSSW02 from my local Lowe's. $569 Delivered. Comes on Tuesday. Hoping to install it and burn off the paint before the next cold spell.
Check the door for flatness and gasket sealing right away. Hopefully this is a good one, but some have had issues here.
 

TheDogsCar

New Member
Feb 12, 2020
4
NY
Check the door for flatness and gasket sealing right away. Hopefully this is a good one, but some have had issues here.
I read those comments. I was going to check before buying ... but forgot. The door does seem very thin.
 

TheDogsCar

New Member
Feb 12, 2020
4
NY
I read those comments. I was going to check before buying ... but forgot. The door does seem very thin.
Have not used it yet, because it is missing a few bricks. I guess that is what happens when you buy the last one. Checked the door and it is flat. The stove face does have a 1/16" bow inward.

I then checked my 13-NCH and it has an 1/8" bow inward.
 

Newburnerwisconsin

Feeling the Heat
Jul 8, 2015
472
wisconsin
Has anyone heard anything bad about the Osburn or Enerzone stoves? Thanks
 

Woody Stover

Minister of Fire
Dec 25, 2010
12,160
Southern IN
Has anyone heard anything bad about the Osburn or Enerzone stoves? Thanks
The Enerzone I saw at a shop here, a couple years back, looked like a decent build for a semi- "value stove." I think both those brands are SBI products..
 

Newburnerwisconsin

Feeling the Heat
Jul 8, 2015
472
wisconsin
The Enerzone I saw at a shop here, a couple years back, looked like a decent build for a semi- "value stove." I think both those brands are SBI products..
Yes they are both SBI. I like the fact they are both tube stoves with simple designs without some new baffle or combustor.
 

ABMax24

Feeling the Heat
Yes they are both SBI. I like the fact they are both tube stoves with simple designs without some new baffle or combustor.
I've got an osburn, we put it in last fall, we've already put 4 cords through it, no issues so far. My fire bricks still looks brand new even. Only think I don't like is how easy it is to damage the C-Cast baffle, but that's probably the same for most tube stoves.

Realistically you are likely to get the same firebox whether you go Osburn or Enerzone, they seem to just change the outsides. I'm a big fan of modern style stoves, so we got the Matrix, but I also like the Inspire or Destination 2.3 by Enerzone.

My aunt and uncle have an Osburn stove they put in their house when they built it 28 years ago, it probably goes through 3 cords of wood a winter. It still looks like it's less than 10 years old. Of course it was built before the stringent emissions standards came into effect.
 
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