automotive

[fbelec]

i bought a van. 2004 e350 super duty with a 5.4. i bought it a year and a half ago the odometer read 21000 miles. i bought it from someone i know he had it for a year only put 2000 miles on it and said it was doing him no good sitting. he bought it from a chevy dealer and said the owner before him was the government. body has more than it share of scraps in the paint. you would think this truck would be like a new truck. starting the truck up in the morning it has that dry main bearing noise for 10 or so seconds the is ok. when it is at running temp everything is ok. odometer now says 33000 miles. with the ford oil it calls for motorcraft 5w20 blended conventional / synthetic it would blow a couple of quarts in a 600 to 750 miles but no sign of smoke from the tail pipe and no leaks the motor is dry as a bone. put synthetic 5w20 and so far no oil disappearing. but still have the noise and my background at one point a mechanic tells me this motor has a lot more miles than showing. i would love to know the real mileage. does anyone out here have some experience with a additive that will stick to the bearings and stop this dry bearing noise? there are lots and lots of product out there and i only have experience with one. slick 50. had it in my old town car with a 7.5 liter and got rid of that with 425000 miles on it.

thanks

frank

 

[jatoxico]

What's the deal with dry bearing noise, known problem for that engine? Generally not a believer in additives but if its a clogged oil passage or something you might be able to get it clean.

 

[EatenByLimestone]

I was able to solve a oil usage problem by desludging. I figure carbon wasn't allowing the rings to seat.

 

[semipro]

No experience here with additives but I have observed that some oil filters have better check (anti drain back) valves in them than others. The filters with poorer check valves resulted in more engine start up noise. Purolator, Napa (which may be made by Purolator) and Motorcraft filters seem to have good check valves.

Edit: It appears Wix makes Napa filters not Purolator.

 

[moey]

I suspect theres another 0 on the mileage. You might order a carfax or google the VIN number sometimes you can stumble across something online which might give you a hint on car history.

 

[Hogwildz]

I use Lucas in my Ranger, and have 176,000+ miles, runs great. I do cut back to 1/2 a bottle during the cold months.
Take the van to a shop that can hook up and read the engine ECU, they should be able to retrieve the actual mileage off the ECU.

 

[greg13]

Try going to a 10w30 oil.I use full synthetic in mine and use a filter with anti drain back washer in it. Motorcraft filters are cheap at Walmart.

 

[vinny11950]

All good advice, especially the filter. Use napa.

I would also do a compression test on the cylinders. Bad rings, low compression reading, burn oil.

As for the bearing noise on start up, it could be another component in the engine bay. Get a mechanics stethoscope and listen around. Be careful with the moving parts, no loose clothing.

 

[fbelec]

def all great advice. i use motorcraft filters. i tried a fram on the last truck early in it's life and had the same thing happen until someone told me about the little valve in the motorcraft filter. wouldn't the computer tell the odometer what it has stored in it's memory? my thought is that they changed the computer. that's how they got away to get rid of a high mileage vehicle. to me it does sound like a motor that has over 200,000 miles. my last one had 204,000 on it when i got rid of it and that engine sounded better on startup. was looking at a product called petron plus. it says they treat the metal and not the oil. been thinking about using that after i threw in some engine flush/cleaner for the next oil change. that thought of a partial blocked oil hole did come to mind.

 

[jatoxico]

Whenever I have a question about oil/engines I go to Bob's the oil guy, probably heard of it. From reading and thinking about it you can't limit deposit of additives to only the moving parts and because of that you could make things worse. Some tests showed higher iron levels using some additives.

Personally I'd go the conventional route first and see if de-sludging is needed and helps before anything new to the mix.

 

[Highbeam]

Could be something as simple as a leak at the exhaust manifold which the 5.4 is known for.

 

[festerw]

I suspect theres another 0 on the mileage. You might order a carfax or google the VIN number sometimes you can stumble across something online which might give you a hint on car history.

If it is indeed a fleet vehicle it's very possible that it just has a ton of hours on it. The university I work at just scrapped an 06 F250 with 60k miles and the way it ran you'd think it had 400k. Floors were rotted and the dash looked like a Christmas tree.

 

[Tegbert]

def all great advice. i use motorcraft filters. i tried a fram on the last truck early in it's life and had the same thing happen until someone told me about the little valve in the motorcraft filter. wouldn't the computer tell the odometer what it has stored in it's memory? my thought is that they changed the computer. that's how they got away to get rid of a high mileage vehicle. to me it does sound like a motor that has over 200,000 miles. my last one had 204,000 on it when i got rid of it and that engine sounded better on startup. was looking at a product called petron plus. it says they treat the metal and not the oil. been thinking about using that after i threw in some engine flush/cleaner for the next oil change. that thought of a partial blocked oil hole did come to mind.

A lot a vehicles store the odometer reading in the cluster not the vehicle computer. Even on my 2010 if the cluster failed the only way to get the correct mileage is to have both clusters sent out and the new one reprogrammed with the correct mileage. Or have it documented through the dmv that the mileage has changed and why. Or find a donor that has the same or close to same mileage as it had. But also on mine it stores engine hours and such so that may be different too.


Lopi Rockport
Blaze King Ashford 25

 

[blades]

5.4l ford eng. 5w10 is new order must use motorcraft or similar anti drain back filter, what you likely hearing is timing chain slap until the oil pressure gets up.Best to use synthetic Do not use 10w30. these are twin cam units hydro advance, dirty oil will cause the vct to stick similarly dirty oil can cause the passages in the cam phasers to clog up. there is also an issue with the crankshaft end play which if it becomes excessive allows the oil pump to cavitate. This is a wear factor on the pump cover. There are 2valve (older) and 3 valve models -there is a difference in the timing chain tension sol. assembly. in the 2v there is a ratchet system that keeps the tension on the chain 3v does not relies on fast oil pressure rise. Could write a couple of pages on the ins & outs of this eng.

Forgot to say best to change oil every 3000 miles- due to recycling the various eng vapors with PVC system. but thats a whole nother story in itself regarding direct or indirect injection of fuel. 5.4l is indirect.

 

[fbelec]

i change my oil every 3000 always have. i know people say synthetic can go farther but my mind tells me and listening to the motor tells me that it's time for a change. stuff that gathers in the oil that the filter can't take out are there regardless of the type and weight. i knew about the exhaust manifold problems i know someone that has had it changed a few times and for the 4.6. usually when the engine is burning oil you can see it in the tail pipe. mine is the color of the pipe nothing else. i have a friend that works at a dealer look the truck up and carfaxed it and could find nothing. i think the next time i'am up for a oil change i think i'll put in a cleaner to see how that does.

question on the weight. blades you say 5w10 is for newer vehicles but everything for my truck says 5w20 sorry for being old school but if i were to put in 5w10 wouldn't i go thru oil if it is a worn motor?

stupid thing is i got a 4.6 in a merc that has 236,000 miles and it doesn't do a dry startup sound. everything is normal in that car. that is what is killing me about the truck everyday when i start it. a friend said don't worry about it. i'm old school and when you hear that noise it hurts.

 

[greg13]

The 5.4 and 4.6 are different critters. 5.4 is notorious for problems like the variable cam timing, there are countless articles on the problems & cures for it. Most of the Ford based sites I go on have recommended switching to 10w30 since the cam timing & chain tension is based on oil pressure. I am just shy of 160K on my 04 and change oil every 5k on the 5s to keep it simple I bought it used 2 years ago and so far no problems. Make sure the spark plugs are changed (another 5.4 issue) I keep a rethreading kit in the truck that so far is still unopened.

 

[fbelec]

The 5.4 and 4.6 are different critters. 5.4 is notorious for problems like the variable cam timing, there are countless articles on the problems & cures for it. Most of the Ford based sites I go on have recommended switching to 10w30 since the cam timing & chain tension is based on oil pressure. I am just shy of 160K on my 04 and change oil every 5k on the 5s to keep it simple I bought it used 2 years ago and so far no problems. Make sure the spark plugs are changed (another 5.4 issue) I keep a rethreading kit in the truck that so far is still unopened.

hi. what is the difference between 4.6 and the 5.4? changing to 10w30 wouldn't that be a problem for bearings while it is cold? being heavier? what was your reason for going to 10w30. what plugs are you using?

 

[blades]

Ford issued a TB on the oil - reason is to allow a faster oil pressure rise. Spark plugs- original ones were a 3 piece design- carbon buildup is what is causing the removal problem there was a tb on that also. Replacement ones are different design. ( last set I changed (06 vintage) oem units at 80k first one came out ok drill and tap the next 7) . iirc 4.6 is a different block. had one of those. timing system similar and would do the chain slap as well but mine never self destructed 160k miles. Oh, and that one is a pain, as to redo the timing system you have to pull the engine as one is on the front the other on the back. It is also not a cop system. On both the 4.6 and the 5.4 the PVC lines are a combination of hard and molded lines in cased in a foam surround in areas. The molded rubber sections will rot out but because of the foam almost impossible to hear or find. 4.6 one in back from intake manifold to passenger side valve cover gives up the ghost at the intake manifold point ( back side of engine, oem availability only) 5.4 the usual culprit is in front under all the air intake assemblies.
Interesting note that the timing cam shafts support cups & caps are line bored and have no bearings or sleeves other than the one right behind the cam phaser assembly. the are no engraved oil line or drilled ports -rely on oil vapor and the porosity of alum. heads for lubrication.

 

[fbelec]

yikes. so it's a throw away motor when something is wrong. maybe we should go back to the steam engine

 

[EatenByLimestone]

I vote for triple expansion!

 

[fbelec]

haven't worked automotive in years. just do my own vehicles. but hearing this stuff the car companys are getting what the want they are or should i say have the backyard mechanic out of the loop.( take it to the dealer)

 

[greg13]

haven't worked automotive in years. just do my own vehicles. but hearing this stuff the car companys are getting what the want they are or should i say have the backyard mechanic out of the loop.( take it to the dealer)

Not just the back yard mechanics. I have been wrenching for 45 years and the manufacturers (not just in the automotive sector) make it one step from impossible to do any work without a computer loaded with their software. I have a used snap on that is current to 2008 (covers MY vehicles) to upgrade to current model year would cost around $3000. Simply out of reach for 99% of mechanics not associated with a dealer.

 

[fbelec]

wow sounds like not a fun field to be in anymore. i remember the days when i could make a carb car run as good as a fuel injection car when it was cold and felt great at the end of the day. i think a steam engine might be the way to go. could even use some of my wood instead of high gas prices.

back to the spark plugs for a sec. now i'm worried about that. i wanted to change them this past summer but was pulled in 5 different directions all summer long. so when i go to change them they might not come out? or do they break in the hole?

listening to this noise my ears are telling me maybe it is a lighter sound then crank bearings. i did find a way around this until i change the oil again two key turn overs. shut off the key before it starts the on the 3rd key start it. it seems to key the noise at bay

 

[fbelec]

the other thing about these computer controlled engines is the fast idol when cold. i like to keep the idol down when cold and i can't control that like a carb car.

 

[semipro]

i did find a way around this until i change the oil again two key turn overs. shut off the key before it starts the on the 3rd key start it. it seems to key the noise at bay

Hmm. What you're doing above is basically priming the oil supply system and fed components.
Does this engine have hydraulic lifters or cam followers? If so, based on your latest description, I'd look there first.
I'm pretty sure the noise my truck made when I was using an oil filter with a poor anti-flow back valve was the hydraulic lifters.