Barn doors - cosmetic question

[Ashful]

I'm too close to the forest to see the trees, I think. Trying to pick new doors for my carriage house barn, and debating on moving entry door from current location around to the side of the building, which is no small challenge.

Existing barn, with a 30" entry door on far left, 9' wide overhead door on left and 10' wide overhead door on right:



I need to remove transom lights and move the left overhead door about 3" closer to entry door. I also want to increase entry door from 30" to at least 32". Here's a mock-up in Photoshop:



Because of the tight space between entry door and left overhead door, and the unequal sized overhead doors, I'm thinking of moving the entry door around to the side, and going with two 10' wide overhead doors. That would look something like this:



Better? Worse? Doesn't matter? It will cost me more to move that entry door, potentially create other havoc with framing and my floor plan, but I'll do it to keep the building from looking odd with unequal door sizes, etc.

Thoughts?

Setting / perspective:

 

[brian89gp]

Why are you wanting to do this?

I like how it is now personally.

 

[Ashful]

Hah... yeah, I like it now, too! Those existing doors must be swapped out, and the transom windows eliminated, for a few reasons:

1. Solid single-panel doors will not track in below new second floor. New doors will be 3-panel.
2. Existing doors are less than R1, and I'll be heating this space. New doors will be R9 or better.
3. Transom windows are in joist space of new floor, and new overhead door recoilers will be installed in transom window space.

I'm also looking forward to having windows at a height I can see thru!

New doors are machined PVC, not overlay, so they can be painted to match barn. Will probably paint panels to match siding, and leave raised trim white.

 

[brian89gp]

How much extra work is it to move everything around and resize? Is anybody but you going to notice? And how much is it gonna bother you to leave the sizing/spacing as is?

Some people see odd and it pisses off their OCD. Others see odd and think its quaint and cool. The other 90% of the population doesn't notice or care.

If you do enlarge the 9' one to 10', might as well move the access door to the side and make sure that the two 10' doors are visually even/appealing on the wall.

I find the current 10', 9', and access door visually appealing, I'd leave the 9' and 10' door sizing alone and enlarge the access door to the left. Work flow/traffic pattern I would imagine works better on a building like this if all the doors are on the same side.

 

[johneh]

I also like the 10 ' , 9' doors and the access door how they are positioned
all I would do is have custom doors made to fit the opening size you need

 

[johninwi]

i like the symetrical look but thats me. drawback is the added work of moving the man door to the side wall, also will moving it make for a door that is hidden from view? security problem?


Edit:
considered moving the overhead doors to the right to ballance the spacing?
What is the space used for? Would a pair of 9' wide doors work?

 

[Ashful]

Thanks, guys. I am now considering just leaving all doors as current size / position. I had wanted to increase width of entry door, and I do definitely need to slide that 9' door an inch or three closer to the entry door (door track clearance issue), but having insulated PVC doors custom made to fit is not a problem. I'll just have to live with the narrow entry door.

On moving door to side, security is not much an issue. Prior owners didn't even have locks on the doors, whereas we have a full monitored alarm system in both house and barn. Bigger issue is cutting of several structural timbers original to barn, and the negative impact on my floor plan. Not impossible, just not favorable.

 

[Dune]

If you are making new doors anyway, have them swing open instead. That way you can keep the transom lights since they are quite attractive.
I would take barn doors over rollup doors anytime.
I further the notion of leaving the sizes as is.

 

[Ashful]

Hi Dune, et al.

Here's a mock-up of the barn with all doors in original sizes and locations, both with and without transoms:



Do note that the left door (9-footer) will have to move about 3" closer to the entry door, no matter what. This is necessitated by a change in the structure inside the barn. For scale reference, that is about the width of the trim casing around the door. The transoms are uninsulated plexiglass, so they have to go. Besides, one has to move. I could replace them with double-pane transoms, if they really make the barn look that much better, but I'm really surprised people like them in combination with the lighted doors. Maybe I'm just too close to this project to be objective, tho.

On swinging doors, I've never seen these as practical for daily use, esp. in snow with a heated shop. Can you point me to some insulated swinging door options? The swinging doors I've had (including one pair on the unheated back third of this building) have always been a PITA.

Edit:
considered moving the overhead doors to the right to ballance the spacing?
What is the space used for? Would a pair of 9' wide doors work?

Just saw this. I'd love to do that. It would solve all my problems. Unfortunately, there is an enormous girder structure (3.5" x 16" LVL's sistered on each side of an old 6x6 beam) running down the middle of the building, just to the right of the left overhead door. That's actually why I have to push the left overhead door about 3" to the left, so it's door track can clear the new LVL.

 

[brian89gp]

I like the transoms too.

How hard is it to move it 3"? Cosmetic or structure?

 

[Dune]

Transom lights are magical; you just don't see them, especially on a barn. I would forgo the door lights in favor of the window lights.
As to swinging doors, they are very popular around here but they custom built. the carpenter at the last job at which I was the metalsmith built the doors on site and insulated them with foam. I built the hinges, stainless steel pintles and oil impregnated bronze bushings in the wrought iron straps. They are far, far superior to any track doors. There is literally zero maintenance. Furthermore they have far higher r-value and are tighter fitting as well.

 

[Ashful]

This is a shop, Dune. The swinging doors are just far too impractical. As I said, I have owned many properties that have them (in fact my tractor and mower are currently stored behind swinging doors), and they're just not as practical for daily use. Besides, I'm not sure who I could have build or install them, around here.

As to transom lights, not magical or uncommon here. I must have close to 20 transom lights in my house alone. I will agree that they're almost never seen on a barn, tho. Just one more reason why they should go. They're not proper for a barn.

 

[ironpony]

my thought reading all the comments. being you are going to have doors made, make the 10 foot a roll up which give you large easy access. make the 9 foot swing so you don't have to reframe and leave the transoms they are beautiful. when all is closed you will not know, and how often do you need to open the 9 foot??

 

[Ashful]

my thought reading all the comments. being you are going to have doors made, make the 10 foot a roll up which give you large easy access. make the 9 foot swing so you don't have to reframe and leave the transoms they are beautiful. when all is closed you will not know, and how often do you need to open the 9 foot??

Interesting idea, ironpony. The 9' door will be adjacent to my main work bench, which will be along the end wall close to the entry door, so that's the one I'll be opening when I move tractors and vehicles in and out... but I guess it's something I could deal with. More often, I have the doors open just because it's a nice day out, and I want to just shut off the HVAC system and get some fresh air.

The bigger issue is I know who can build and install me some very nice overhead doors. I have no leads on anyone who can build swinging doors of equal R-value and draft tightness.

I'm really surprised so many people responded that they like the transoms, as I think they make the barn look odd, with lights in the doors. With the original solid panel doors, I like the transoms.

One option I had not considered is leaving the transoms, and then adding another transom above the entry door. That might make them look a little less offensive to me. I just think it looks funny having the transoms above lighted doors, and then no transom above the entry door. Maybe I'm just too close to the forest to see the trees, though. It's sometimes hard to be objective, when it's your own house / barn you're looking at.

 

[Ehouse]

Have you considered a door within a door? Google garage door with access door for some pics.

 

[ironpony]

Have you considered a door within a door? Google garage door with access door for some pics.

thinking along these lines you could eliminate the man door and balance the look. use one side of the swing door for entry. also seeing what you have built on here, I know you could build the swing doors to match the overhead door you are having built. nudge, nudge spring project.

 

[Ashful]

thinking along these lines you could eliminate the man door and balance the look. use one side of the swing door for entry. also seeing what you have built on here, I know you could build the swing doors to match the overhead door you are having built. nudge, nudge spring project.

You know it, pony. Sometime I should show you the wooden racing boat I completely rebuilt over 3 years. I'm very much into building architectural components, but time is not on my side, here. My prior 6 hours per evening, and 30 hours per weekend spent working on projects in my shop, has been reduced to maybe 6 or 10 hours per week! Gotta wait for the kids to get a little older, before I'll have time for things like building shop doors, again. Right now, all time in the shop is being spent rebuilding 240 year old doors and windows on the house, where I'm saving a few thousand $ per unit, doing all work myself.

 

[Ashful]

A new twist. Keep original transoms, and add another over entry door:

 

[ironpony]

negatory, height looks off

 

[Ashful]

Okay. That was one of my issues with the transoms on just the overhead doors, too (post 9, left view). Should I bother trying to push up the transom over the entry door, to the same height as the overhead doors, or just lose them altogether?

Other option is having the folks that make the overhead doors make me a door slab that's the same height as the overhead doors. I'd have to frame it, weatherstrip, mortise the hinges and locks, etc. Lots of work, but doable.

 

[ironpony]

at this point I would lose them. looking back at previous post, the man door the same height would look nice and balanced. no transoms

 

[billb3]

I would just replace the doors that are there now, if the transom lights need to go, so be it.
Just get good doors.
Why turn a perfectly good enough barn into swiss cheese.

 

[Ashful]

I would just replace the doors that are there now, if the transom lights need to go, so be it.
Just get good doors. Why turn a perfectly good enough barn into swiss cheese.

That's the current plan, but just for the record, that front wall is not original today. The only original timberwork in that front wall is above the doors, as the entire sill and all framing was replaced when the previous owner went from rolling doors on front, to what you see now. It will definitely not be swiss cheese, and will be insulated either with spray foam, or 10" of blown-in cellulose. It will be far tighter than any barn deserves to be.

Doors will be Fimbel RT-11S, which are definitely a very good door, albeit not quite as high on R-value as the cheaper polyurethaned steel doors. I have another recent thread on this forum showing that door R-value really doesn't have a very substantial effect on heating costs. Large surface radiation (i.e. roof) and draft are much bigger factors in the heating cost.

 

[Polarbear]

I like the transom windows. I've been installing doors and openers for 23 years. Here in Michigan it is pretty rare to see the windows over garage doors. Why do you need 3 more inches track clearance in width for the new door if you already have sectional doors?

 

[Ashful]

The old doors were solid panel, not sectional, and were tracked up into the roofline of the barn. I have since added a second floor to the interior, where there was none before, and need to re-track the doors in under the new second floor.

I spoke with the installer on Friday, who indicated we need to move one of the doors over (or narrow it) by 1" to clear a new LVL I have installed. So, the transom would have to move or narrow, as well, and I'd need to provide the necessary mounting points for the door hardware we have chosen (simple torsion system right above door). I could find a way to keep them, if I really loved them, but I think they don't look as nice as they did, when switching from solid doors to lighted doors.

Picked a new entry door. Will try to post the "final" look tonight, when I'm at my home computer.