Black walnut plantation....anyone got one?

[Pat53]

Gents, do any of you guys have any experience with growing black walnut as investment trees?

It's winter, so that generally means I'm bored out of my mind ! I'm just itchin' to fire up the Husky and start dropping timber....LOL. I've got about 6 acres across the road from my house that is mainly second growth aspen, soft maple and white birch, with some red oak, black cherry and red/white pine mixed in. I've been reading a lot about people who plant timber species, especially black walnut, as future investment trees. Now I'll never see a stick of wood from these trees, but my kids/grandkids should some day.

Purdue University has been working with black walnut and other timber species like oak and black cherry for years and have now produced genetically superior stock that grows straighter and faster than regular native trees. My local soil conservation guy is coming out to look at the site next week. If he likes it I can get a 50/50 cost-share for buying the seedlings and some other expenses. I figure it would cost me about $4,500 for the seedlings, tree fencing/shelters and fertilizer without any cost share money. I can probably get at least that much for the aspen, birch and pine logs alone. The maple, cherry and oak I would probably just keep for firewood, maybe sell a few oak logs if they are any good.

I figure I could clear cut the whole thing by March and have everything decked up a few weeks later.

Am I NUTS !?

Pat

 

[Jags]

Yep - yer nuts. I wouldn't plant a black walnut within shooting distance. Mow, mow, ZING..mow, mow, WHAP.
And don't plan on anything else growing in the vicinity. Black walnuts are notorious for killing off other stuff.
Also - check the market for black walnut. They don't bring what they once used to unless they are of veneer quality.

(to be honest - I am biased - I just don't like them as a yard tree. A plantation of them may be different).

 

[tcassavaugh]

if you want to plant trees, try a small Christmas tree lot......start with a couple of acres and see how they do. that way, you don't have to wait forever to get any return on your investment.....and there is pretty much always a market, well at least a holiday.

 

[Pat53]

Yep - yer nuts. I wouldn't plant a black walnut within shooting distance. Mow, mow, ZING..mow, mow, WHAP.
And don't plan on anything else growing in the vicinity. Black walnuts are notorious for killing off other stuff.
Also - check the market for black walnut. They don't bring what they once used to unless they are of veneer quality.

(to be honest - I am biased - I just don't like them as a yard tree. A plantation of them may be different).

Well, yes black walnut will kill a lot of other trees/plants that grow near it, and I would also never plant them as a yard tree. These trees would be a pure stand, except for the black alder I was going to intercrop with them. According to the literature, for timber production, you start with about 10' X 10' spacing both ways, so you initially plant about 400+ trees/acre. between each tree you plant an alder tree which has 2 purposes. First, they are nitrogen fixing trees (they add nitrogen to the soil) which aid in development and growth of the walnut. Secondly, they sort of force the walnut trees to grow more upright with fewer side branches. After about 10-15 years the walnut trees will eventually kill the alders. You eventually thin the trees as they get bigger until after about 30 years or so you only end up with about 40-50 trees/acre. The goal is to get trees with at least 17-20' of straight and clean trunks that will make veneer or high quality sawlogs. Each tree can potentially be worth $2K-$5K, sometimes more depending on how many sawlogs it can produce. Even the smaller trees that are thinned out can be used for gunstocks and other uses. The nuts can also be sold for eating or seed stock.

My plan would be to put about 2/3 of the acreage in black walnut and the other 1/3 with black cherry and red oak which of course are also used for furniture, etc..

And yes, I fully expect the economy to get much worse before it gets better, perhaps for a decade or more. If I do this, my hope would be that when these trees are mature the economy will be good again and the market will be good for quality timber producing species like walnut, oak and cherry. In addition, there is now a disease called "thousand cankers disease" that is spreading through the western states and is now in some of the eastern states that is killing black walnut trees. It is caused by a walnut twig beetle (they are very tiny) that spreads a fungus that kills the trees. The beetles are native to the southwest US and have been detected as far north as southern Ohio, but researchers don't believe they would be ale to survive this far north. So unfortunately for many walnut plantations in the central US, they may find their plantations destroyed by these bugs and the only place walnut trees would survive would be in colder regions of the country. There are no walnut plantations of any size up here that I'm aware of, but I do know people who have a tree here and there on their property. they are hardy to zone 4.

But I agree, either way I am a NUTS !! Maybe this nut will go ahead anyway and try to produce some WAL-NUTS !!

Pat

 

[Pat53]

if you want to plant trees, try a small Christmas tree lot......start with a couple of acres and see how they do. that way, you don't have to wait forever to get any return on your investment.....and there is pretty much always a market, well at least a holiday.

Yeah, I thought about them before, but there are lots of guys who grow them here now. They grow them for 8-10 years and they only get about $20-$25 for them (fraser, douglas, concolor fir). Not much return in my opinion and they still need to be fenced from the deer, pruned and sprayed for bugs every year.

 

[mass_burner]

If your banking on walnut being hot in the future your, well, nuts. You can't know what will be in style that far in advance. Even if the economy is raging, maybe folks will want maple furniture and veneer. This whole mid-century modern thing will pass. Everything does.

Christmas trees sounds safer; or maybe Festivus poles?

 

[Paulywalnut]

I have about 25 walnut trees. I would get rid of all of them if I could. They grow on their own from the walnut falling and splitting. Messy, a lot of work and nothing grows under them except grass. When you want to sell them they have to be pristine no flaws, straight runs. Not worth it. Grow locust and oak trees and burn them

 

[BillLion]

Or get a plantation of osage orange (the Holy Grail of firewood) going, cut it, split it, stack it, sell it and drop ship it, and then make tons of money off of your fellow Hearth.com peeps!

 

[etiger2007]

Three years ago I sold five walnut trees for 5K, they were two yard trees and three trees in the woods Ill never miss. I have a bunch more and they are the messiest tree there is. The guy that bought them doubled his money on them.

 

[oldspark]

Three years ago I sold five walnut trees for 5K, they were two yard trees and three trees in the woods Ill never miss. I have a bunch more and they are the messiest tree there is. The guy that bought them doubled his money on them.

Do they have to be a real nice tree to get that kind of money, how large?

 

[etiger2007]

Heres a pic of one in the backyard, they only wanted the trunk so I got alot of fire wood too. They were all about this big around but this one had the longest run until the branches started.

 

[etiger2007]

Heres a pic of one in the backyard, they only wanted the trunk so I got alot of fire wood too. They were all about this big around but this one had the longest run until the branches started.

Well heres two pics of the yard trees.

 

[Backwoods Savage]

Pat, I do not think you are nuts at all. However, I always question people trying to make it with walnut trees. Indeed, some trees will give you a great return, just like Ed posted above. However, it has been 50+ years since my logging and sawing days and I do not see the walnut tree prices keeping pace with what they were bringing back then. It is sort of like the red oaks. It was common not that many years ago to sell a good red oak tree for up to $3000. Today you can hardly give them away. However, the neighboring land owner did sell some last summer. The average price was $100 per tree. So it is sort of a crap shoot.

Still I am intrigued with what the Purdue University is doing. They may be onto something and if the walnuts do die off in some area, this could be a boon to you if you plant some of them. One other thing you might consider is to visit a few mills and ask questions about walnut logs and how much they are worth. I'm thinking the mill near Stevenson might be a good one to check.

 

[Pat53]

Pat, I do not think you are nuts at all. However, I always question people trying to make it with walnut trees. Indeed, some trees will give you a great return, just like Ed posted above. However, it has been 50+ years since my logging and sawing days and I do not see the walnut tree prices keeping pace with what they were bringing back then. It is sort of like the red oaks. It was common not that many years ago to sell a good red oak tree for up to $3000. Today you can hardly give them away. However, the neighboring land owner did sell some last summer. The average price was $100 per tree. So it is sort of a crap shoot.

Still I am intrigued with what the Purdue University is doing. They may be onto something and if the walnuts do die off in some area, this could be a boon to you if you plant some of them. One other thing you might consider is to visit a few mills and ask questions about walnut logs and how much they are worth. I'm thinking the mill near Stevenson might be a good one to check.

Hi Sav, I really don't have a clue if those trees would be worth anything 40-50 years from now. It all depends on the economy and the supply and demand for the wood at the time. They say these trees can be ready for harvest in as little as 35 years, but that is on good sites and in longer growing seasons. Up here I'm probably looking at 40-45 years. I just think it would be kind of a neat project to start and it just might turn out some day to be worth a lot of money. Right now, that 6 acres isn't ever going to produce much as far as timber value, and I could easily cover the cost of my investment with the wood, so why not give it a try? To do this right, you have to do a fair bit of work each year to insure the trees grow straight, are properly pruned when needed, and are kept weed free for at least the first 3-4 years. They have to be protected from deer/rabbits/mice also, that is an absolute must. I'm semi-retired and I have the time to do the maintenance and upkeep, plus I love working outdoors in the woods. In 40 years if the wood isn't worth much, someone will have 6 good acres of firewood. LOL

The genetically improved trees they produce now grow at least twice as fast and with straighter trunks than wild trees. Still, if you don't keep a close eye on the trees for the first 8-10 years then there's no point in even planting them. After that time period they are pretty much on their own, only need an occasional pruning here and there. One reason for planting so many at the start is so you can kind of weed out the bad ones as you thin them.

And yes, there is a real possibility that the disease that is killing walnut trees down south could potentially wipe out the vast majority of plantations in 10-20 years time, making the surviving trees worth that much more. These walnut twig beetles are already in Kentucky, North Carolina, Missouri, Virginia and several other eastern and Midwest states. The walnut growers are very concerned about it. These bugs that kill trees are almost impossible to stop once they start spreading out.

Pat

 

[Backwoods Savage]

Pat, one concern is that when you cut off the popple (aspen), those regrow fast as the grow from the roots so to remove them entirely might take some bulldozing. Otherwise you might be fighting those annually. Still, I like your thinking.

 

[Pat53]

Pat, one concern is that when you cut off the popple (aspen), those regrow fast as the grow from the roots so to remove them entirely might take some bulldozing. Otherwise you might be fighting those annually. Still, I like your thinking.

Yes, I would have to herbicide the entire 6 acres as soon as things started growing in spring. You have kill all the stump sprouts from the oak, maple and cherry also. I would try to get the seedlings in the ground by late summer or wait to plant bare root stock the following spring. Killing all competing vegetation is something that must be done before planting the seedlings.

Here's a link to the organization that is involved in this stuff:
http://www.htirc.org/

I actually talked to the director last week, a guy named Charles Michler, who said he would try to get me set up with the seedlings if I chose to go thru with it, really nice guy and obviously very knowledgeable,

 

[Paulywalnut]

Or get a plantation of osage orange (the Holy Grail of firewood) going, cut it, split it, stack it, sell it and drop ship it, and then make tons of money off of your fellow Hearth.com peeps!

Hedge or osage only grows along fence lines. lol. Could you see people carrying a shrink wrap pack of osage from the grocery store?

 

[EatenByLimestone]

probably not when there is a nice, dust free Duraflame that gives lots of pretty flame for less $ right next to it.

 

[BillLion]

Hedge or osage only grows along fence lines. lol. Could you see people carrying a shrink wrap pack of osage from the grocery store?

See, you can tell I've never gotten any of "the precious"! Funny mental image. What would the shrink wrap cost -$24.99???

 

[aussiedog3]

Pat, sounds like you have a great plan and a passion for this project. GO FOR IT

I've thought about the same thing in the past, I should not have waited, I could have been seven years in to it already.

Get started now. Good luck.

 

[McKraut]

Gents, do any of you guys have any experience with growing black walnut as investment trees?

It's winter, so that generally means I'm bored out of my mind ! I'm just itchin' to fire up the Husky and start dropping timber....LOL. I've got about 6 acres across the road from my house that is mainly second growth aspen, soft maple and white birch, with some red oak, black cherry and red/white pine mixed in. I've been reading a lot about people who plant timber species, especially black walnut, as future investment trees. Now I'll never see a stick of wood from these trees, but my kids/grandkids should some day.

Purdue University has been working with black walnut and other timber species like oak and black cherry for years and have now produced genetically superior stock that grows straighter and faster than regular native trees. My local soil conservation guy is coming out to look at the site next week. If he likes it I can get a 50/50 cost-share for buying the seedlings and some other expenses. I figure it would cost me about $4,500 for the seedlings, tree fencing/shelters and fertilizer without any cost share money. I can probably get at least that much for the aspen, birch and pine logs alone. The maple, cherry and oak I would probably just keep for firewood, maybe sell a few oak logs if they are any good.

I figure I could clear cut the whole thing by March and have everything decked up a few weeks later.

Am I NUTS !?

Pat

Hi Pat,

We are lucky to have quite a few native black walnut trees on our place. We started planting black walnuts about 25 years ago. We bought 100 trees from Musser Forests to get started. About 5 years ago they started producing nuts. I gather the nuts from the planted and the native trees. I bury the nuts and let them sprout and harden off over winter. Then we transplant the trees in the spring. Every other year we transplant 2 to 3 hundred trees. The deer are very hard on them. We don't tube the trees because of the expense, and have had a lot of problems with deer damage. The trees are now 30+ plus feet tall (except for the severely deer-damaged trees) and they are beautiful. I look at them and think that I will be dead before they are worth anything. It will be something that the kids and grandkids will benefit from monetarily. I benefit from them only because I am a tree hugger.
We have 10 acres in the CREP program. This is our 10th year involved with it. We planted about 1000 different species of trees and tubed them all. If you need any insight on tubing trees, don't hesitate to ask.

Bob

 

[Pat53]

Pat, sounds like you have a great plan and a passion for this project. GO FOR IT

I've thought about the same thing in the past, I should not have waited, I could have been seven years in to it already.

Get started now. Good luck.

Thanks, well like they say, "the best time to plant a tree was 20 years ago, the second best time is now" ! I think I'm going to start on it tomorrow. We only have a few inches of snow on the ground so it will be easy working for now. Time to get the chainsaw, measuring stick and pickeroon out I guess ! LOL

 

[Pat53]

Hi Pat,

We are lucky to have quite a few native black walnut trees on our place. We started planting black walnuts about 25 years ago. We bought 100 trees from Musser Forests to get started. About 5 years ago they started producing nuts. I gather the nuts from the planted and the native trees. I bury the nuts and let them sprout and harden off over winter. Then we transplant the trees in the spring. Every other year we transplant 2 to 3 hundred trees. The deer are very hard on them. We don't tube the trees because of the expense, and have had a lot of problems with deer damage. The trees are now 30+ plus feet tall (except for the severely deer-damaged trees) and they are beautiful. I look at them and think that I will be dead before they are worth anything. It will be something that the kids and grandkids will benefit from monetarily. I benefit from them only because I am a tree hugger.
We have 10 acres in the CREP program. This is our 10th year involved with it. We planted about 1000 different species of trees and tubed them all. If you need any insight on tubing trees, don't hesitate to ask.

Bob

Thanks Bob, sounds like you've got some nice trees going, good for you. Is that right? 1000 different 'species" of trees?

I am probably going to go with actual fencing around each tree, like hardware cloth. I have read that using grow tubes helps the trees grow faster at first, but they also grow with wispy stems and will fall over after the tubes are removed. I used them on my grape vines and they grew fast but the stems were very thin compared to the vines that weren't in the tubes. I might use tubes to cover just the first 12" or so to protect them from mice and keep them from getting hit with any herbicide I use, What have you used for your trees and have they done OK with the tubes?

thx, Pat

 

[BIGDADDY]

$4,500 sounds like little much. Have you considered fruit trees? At least you may live to see the fruit of your labor.
We have quite a few walnut trees on our place and some of them are very straight good sized trees that my Dad trimmed over 40 years ago and the trees then were I'd guess 10-20 years maybe older. They just keep getting bigger. Never sold any but I would if I had the opportunity.
If you are doing it as a hobby and enjoy doing it I say good for you go ahead.
If your doing it as an investment I give you a big thumbs down. Buying gold or silver would be a better investment.

 

[Pat53]

$4,500 sounds like little much. Have you considered fruit trees? At least you may live to see the fruit of your labor.
We have quite a few walnut trees on our place and some of them are very straight good sized trees that my Dad trimmed over 40 years ago and the trees then were I'd guess 10-20 years maybe older. They just keep getting bigger. Never sold any but I would if I had the opportunity.
If you are doing it as a hobby and enjoy doing it I say good for you go ahead.
If your doing it as an investment I give you a big thumbs down. Buying gold or silver would be a better investment.

Well, I guess this would probably be classified as both a hobby and future investment, although it's true I'll probably never see any financial benefit from it. More likely it would be something for the kids to hopefully benefit from.

Fruit trees as far as I'm concerned are a PIA. they also have to be fenced for at least 5-10 years. They have to be sprayed several times a year and then the birds, deer and bear love to ravage the trees in the fall. I have about a dozen apple trees in my yard that provide me with lots of wonderful fruit, but they also take a lot of attention if you want to get good apples.

I actually think now I could get closer to $7000 for the wood on the 6 acres by cutting and skidding it myself, and that's after hauling charges too. So even a $5K initial investment without any cost-share money should still leave me a few grand to play with. I'm anxious to see what the guy from the soil conservation district will say on Tuesday.

If you want to sell some of your walnut trees it shouldn't be that hard to find buyers for them. You might try the walnut council, I think they have some links to help people find buyers for their trees and also lots of other info about walnut trees and growing.

Pat