Confused by so many stove choices

[thepipe]

Hello, All:
I'm a first-time poster who has read the forums exhaustively over the past few days. They have helped me tremendously, but I still need some guidance in choosing which stove to buy.

We live in southwestern New Jersey, near Vineland. The home is a ranch on a full basement - each level is about 2800 SF. The main living area is extremely well insulated. The basement is only a few feet underground and has an entrance door near to the proposed stove location. I chose the basement because it is currently not heated and my wife is going to use it as a craft area. This will be a fresh installation, so I'm not locked in to a particular size chimney. About 1100 SF of the basement is insulated and finished and this is the location in which the stove will be placed. The larger, uninsulated section may be closed off from the insulated section. Directly across from the proposed stove location is the stairway, so I will get some convective movement upstairs. In any case I realize that I will not be able to heat the entire house comfortably with just one stove.

I really don't care about appearance or the materials from which the unit is constructed; I'm looking for heat output and efficiency. I'd also like a realistic burn time of at least 12 hours. So far I've narrowed the choices to the Englander 30 (and its kin), the Napoleon 1900, and the Pacific Energy Summit. The best prices I have found so for are $1000 delivered on the Englander, $1600 delivered on the Napoleon, and $1700 delivered on the Summit.

I love the Blaze King King, the Hearthstone Mansfield, and the Hearthstone Equinox, but their pricing is nearly DOUBLE that of my choices. That has forced me to exclude them. The Jotul 600 and Vermont Castings Defiant have a double door arrangement that increases the gasketed surface area. I'm concerned this will require additional upkeep. The Vogelzangs have fireboxes that are too small.

In reading the boards, the Englander seems to have an enhanced appetite for wood. One poster performed a long-term comparison and recorded the wood consumption of his Englander over a two year period to be double that of another stove in a similarly-sized home. Is that an anomaly, or may I expect to be feeding the Englander more than the others? On the other hand, are the others worth the 60% or 70% premium over the Englander?

Are there other choices I should consider? Are any of my current choices the wrong choice? I appreciate any insight.

 

[branchburner]

One poster performed a long-term comparison and recorded the wood consumption of his Englander over a two year period to be double that of another stove in a similarly-sized home. Is that an anomaly, or may I expect to be feeding the Englander more than the others? On the other hand, are the others worth the 60% or 70% premium over the Englander?

I suspect an anomoly. The 30 should give you bang for the buck.

Speaking of Buck, the large (4 cu ft) catalytic stoves from Buck, Blaze King and Country might all be good bets: less wood used and more control of heat.

 

[soupy1957]

There truly ARE quite a few stoves to choose from, that's true:

Here are some points to consider:

A) Is the stove going to be BIG enough to provide the heat I need (How deep and wide is the firebox)?
B) What kind of reputation does the "stove I want" have?
C) Fairly and honestly, how much time do I or my family members have, to tend the fire?
D) How readily available is a good seasoned wood supply for my first year (considering the lateness of this, in THIS burning season)?
E) Do I want a "Professional" install (will save you some headache with the Insurance company) -vs- doing it myself?

-Soupy1957

 

[HotCoals]

What you want to do is perfect for a BK.

Yes it's double the price but it will pay back that in 5 years or so.
Don't forget the 30% kick back from the gov.

 

[branchburner]

The advantage of a cat, like BK, is you can get the 12+ hour burns without cooking yourself out of the basement.

 

[thepipe]

What you want to do is perfect for a BK.

Yes it's double the price but it will pay back that in 5 years or so.
Don't forget the 30% kick back from the gov.

I agree - all things being equal, I'd order the BK. However, I just can't wrap my brain around $3200 for what is essentially just another steel stove.

 

[begreen]

My first thought is wood furnace needed, not a stove. A 5600 sq ft barn is going to suck up btus quickly, even if only 4600 sq ft is being heated. This is still way over the size of an average house. But if the primary desire is an area heater on a budget then an Englander 30NC or Drolet Myriad would be on my very short list. If the heat convects readily up a wide, open stairwell to upstairs, the advantages of a cat stove are going to be less because on most heating days the stove is not going to be running at a low idle, it's going to be working to produce heat.

 

[thepipe]

There truly ARE quite a few stoves to choose from, that's true:

Here are some points to consider:

A) Is the stove going to be BIG enough to provide the heat I need (How deep and wide is the firebox)?
B) What kind of reputation does the "stove I want" have?
C) Fairly and honestly, how much time do I or my family members have, to tend the fire?
D) How readily available is a good seasoned wood supply for my first year (considering the lateness of this, in THIS burning season)?
E) Do I want a "Professional" install (will save you some headache with the Insurance company) -vs- doing it myself?

-Soupy1957

Hey, Soupy:
In order...
A) No - no stove can be expected to adequately heat over 5600 SF comfortably. This is primarily for basement comfort, with additional heat to migrate upstairs.
B) All seem to be reputable manufacturers. In fact, the least-expensive Englander seems to have customer service superior to that of many other companies making more expensive units.
C) Not much. I'm looking for as much of an automatic unit as possible. The only wood burning experience I have is with an early 90's Vermont Castings WinterWarm insert. It was a catalytic unit that easily burned all night and kept my 1200 SF home toasty in all but the most brutal conditions. All I had to do after loading was wait until it was hot enought to activate the cat and close the damper. I would definitely own another catalytic unit if pricing was favorable to it.
D) For this season I would need to purchase some. However, I have a 6-acre backyard so storage of split wood will not be a problem in future years.
E) DIY install only. The way I see it, I have the MOST interest in ensuring a safe and proper installation.

 

[BrotherBart]

We all think our wood burns up too fast. The 30-NC isn't gonna eat any more wood than a comparable sized non-cat stove. Our winters are pretty much the same as Southern New Jersey, in fact colder some times, and we are going into the fifth season with a 30-NC heating a two story, 2,500 sq. ft. center hall colonial. We burn three cords of hardwood as regular as clockwork. And the stove is half buried in the fireplace on the first floor. Sure I could shove six cords of wood through it but managing the burn and the stove provides just the right amount of heat and uses a lot less wood. The first year you will try to keep a fire going all of the time to keep from having to restart the stove. That will eat wood just like leaving your car idling in the garage to keep the battery charged and save wear on the starter.

 

[HotCoals]

Heating a huge area like he wants to do I still say any large cat stove is well worth the money.
Like I have said I burned a non cat BK for years..now the same stove with the cat is using half the wood so far..only two weeks with it.
My house is way more even on temps then it has ever been.
The stove can cruise easily 17 to 20 hours on a 2/3- full load in 30-40 degree F temps.
The non cat was good for 8 hours..if you went 10 you might have had to relight.
Since the cat stove can cruise at a even output for a long time you do not have to burn up a lot of wood to raise your house temp back up to where you want it.
I believe that is key.
It takes way less btu's to maintain then it does to raise you house temps back up.

Right now my fire has been burning 15 hours and I still had wood left and real good coals.
34° f and the wind is at maybe 15-20mph.
75 in the room with the stove rest of house is maybe 72.
2500 sq.ft. 2 story colonial.
Insulated well and good windows.

I put a large ugly on top of the fire and I wont add any more till maybe 8 tonight or even latter.
There must be some larger cat stoves that are less in price then the BK..look around.
Now if you were looking for a pretty stove to watch a fire and supplement your heating i would go with a secondary burn tube stove.
Still get decent burn times and a nicer fire show..it all depends on what you want.
5
BTW..I pay 70 a face cord and usually burn 16..if I do cut my consumption in half I'll save 560 a year on wood.
I don't think I'll end up using just half the amount of wood,but I know it will save better then a third.

 

[begreen]

Not knocking the BK cat, but this is not a reasonable comparison. The 24 year old old BK non-cat was not an EPA phase II stove. The comparison is moot.

The cat's advantage is when the heat is sufficient and the stove's air is reduced for the low burn. This is where a cat stove really shines. It can burn low and slow, cleanly. If a modern EPA non-cat or cat stove is being pushed to produce a 5-600F stovetop temp, the consumption is going to be pretty much equal. As BB pointed out, one can run the non-cat stove more efficiently and save wood by adapting burning habits.

 

[HotCoals]

Not knocking the BK cat, but this is not a reasonable comparison. The 24 year old old BK non-cat was not an EPA phase II stove. The comparison is moot.

The cat's advantage is when the heat is sufficient and the stove's air is reduced for the low burn. This is where a cat stove really shines. It can burn low and slow, cleanly. If a modern EPA non-cat or cat stove is being pushed to produce a 5-600F stovetop temp, the consumption is going to be pretty much equal. As BB pointed out, one can run the non-cat stove more efficiently and save wood by adapting burning habits.

Well I do know the diff now between a non cat..non epa Blaze King and one that is plus the new one has the thermostat.
That's what I was referring to.

Now the tube burners are great also but I have been around a few friends that have them and it seems to me you have to play with them more.
To me the cat stove is way easier to get longer burn times..for sure ones with a bi metal thermostat.
If you're saying a tube stove will burn more efficiently the a cat stove I gota disagree from what i have seen so far.
I can be in a fire less mode for hours and still have good heat..and if it's not enough I can turn the stat up a little and have nice blue flame coming off the wood with some fire show before the cat.
You would have to show me where a tube stove could out perform a cat with some real numbers.
Every tube stove I have seen has to have flame off the wood for secondary's to be working...at least for any amount of time.

 

[madison]

As you most likely have learned, burn time and heating time are two different animals. and the basement walls will suck up the btu's. double size what you think you need, then maybe your wife can take off her sweater ( hopefully more) while she is doing her/(your) "crafts" -- %-P .

 

[thepipe]

...maybe your wife can take off her sweater ( hopefully more) while she is doing her/(your) "crafts" -- %-P .

That's what I'm talking about!
Seriously, I would love the BK or other large firebox cat stove. I just can't justify $3k for essentially a steel stove.

 

[HotCoals]

I'm not trying to say the bk cat is the end all of stoves.
I would think any large fire box stove with a cat and a bi-metal thermostat would work well.
Wait..how many fit that description?

 

[branchburner]

Seriously, I would love the BK or other large firebox cat stove. I just can't justify $3k for essentially a steel stove.

How about $2400?
http://www.americanenergysystems.com/model-bbf.cfm

 

[begreen]

Hot coals, what I am saying that when both stoves are in heating mode, a tube burner can be easily as efficient as a cat stove. Look at the EPA tests for example. The BK King clocks in at a respectable 1.76 gms/hr. in EPA testing, while the Englander 30NC tested even cleaner at 1.63gms/hr. But this is with a new stove. The cat will degrade over time and efficiency will steadily decrease. Not so with a tube burner assuming both stoves are well maintained.

Anyway, this is hijacking the thread. Please start a new one for further discussion or resurrect one of the many already posted on this topic. For the OP's needs, a good low cost steel stove will get the job done as long as the expectations are realistic. It sounds like the OP has assessed the situation and their needs pretty well.

 

[HotCoals]

Hot coals, what I am saying that when both stoves are in heating mode, a tube burner can be easily as efficient as a cat stove. Look at the EPA tests for example. The BK King clocks in at a respectable 1.76 gms/hr. in EPA testing, while the Englander 30NC tested even cleaner at 1.63gms/hr. But this is with a new stove. The cat will degrade over time and efficiency will steadily decrease. Not so with a tube burner assuming both stoves are well maintained.

Anyway, this is hijacking the thread. Please start a new one for further discussion or resurrect one of the many already posted on this topic. For the OP's needs, a good low cost steel stove will get the job done as long as the expectations are realistic. It sounds like the OP has assessed the situation and their needs correctly.

I don't know about a low cost steel stove getting the job done in his situation.
Sure he needs to stay in a budget,,we all do.
I just would hate for him to be dissatisfied with his purchase.
Yes a big cat is going to cost some bucks up front..but the payback is there.
I still thing a tube takes more playing around with and more often then a cat for long burns,
would you not agree?

I do agree he has gotten his answers..so if the thread wanders off some I don't see the prob with continuing a conversation.
But if it's not allowed..I understand..I guess.

BTW..My cat is warranted in full for 3 years then pro rated for the next 3..so if on the 7th year I have to pay 300 for a new one,
that's less then 50 a year..pretty cheap for a set and forget stove that burns a long time.

 

[branchburner]

Look at the EPA tests for example. The BK King clocks in at a respectable 1.76 gms/hr. in EPA testing, while the Englander 30NC tested even cleaner at 1.63gms/hr.

EPA vs. Real World? Bet the cat wins in Real World over several seasons.

 

[begreen]

Could be right, as discussed in many other threads.....

 

[BrotherBart]

What I have determined for sure is that cat stove owners know as little about non-cats as non-cat owners know about cat stoves. :lol:

Everybody just heat with what ya wanna heat with. And drink Pepsi or Coke as your taste dictates.

Excuse me now. I put a half load in the 30-NC at seven thirty this morning and haven't touched it but once since loading. I must be behind on fiddling. I better go catch up. :coolsmirk:

 

[HotCoals]

What I have determined for sure is that cat stove owners know as little about non-cats as non-cat owners know about cat stoves. :lol:

Everybody just heat with what ya wanna heat with. And drink Pepsi or Coke as your taste dictates.

Excuse me now. I put a half load in the 30-NC at seven thirty this morning and haven't touched it but once since loading. I must be behind on fiddling. I better go catch up. :coolsmirk:

Have your after burners been working the whole time..be honest now..lol.

 

[Renovation]

Seriously, I would love the BK or other large firebox cat stove. I just can't justify $3k for essentially a steel stove.

How about $2400?
http://www.americanenergysystems.com/model-bbf.cfm

Shopping around, I found a place that sells the basic King Classic for that price.

ThePipe,

Is natural gas unavailable? Can you get wood inexpensively? If the answer to either of these questions is "yes", I'd consider spending the extra bucks for a premium stove, for it would be more efficient and/or easier to run so you'd run it more and save more money in the long run. And with the tax credit, the outlay is less.

If you have NG and are essentially looking for a space heater for a limited area, I'd suggest getting a quality budget stove like the Englander (Loews and Home Depot sell them under different names).

I hope this helps. Good luck!

 

[BrotherBart]

What I have determined for sure is that cat stove owners know as little about non-cats as non-cat owners know about cat stoves. :lol:

Everybody just heat with what ya wanna heat with. And drink Pepsi or Coke as your taste dictates.

Excuse me now. I put a half load in the 30-NC at seven thirty this morning and haven't touched it but once since loading. I must be behind on fiddling. I better go catch up. :coolsmirk:

Your after burners been working the whole time..be honest now..lol.

My goal is to never see streams shooting out of those tubes. Start the fire, ease it up to five hundred to six hundred and settle it in with nice flames. I see no need whatsoever to turn that firebox into an inferno. It can happen for a little while with a fresh full load but that just irritates me when it happens.

Secondary combustion is the licks of flame up at the baffle as the secondary air picks off the stray gases that didn't burn coming off the wood. Hearth.com is pretty much the only place that I see people trying to turn their non-cats into a blast furnace. And then having a portable welding rig dragged into their living room or lugging their stove to a welding shop.

The last four hours have been the coals holding the stove around two fifty. Just right to keep the place at 72 degrees today until the sun goes down and I put a couple of splits on top of them to prepare coals for the night burn load at ten o'clock.

 

[begreen]

thepipe, have your read the webmaster's intro announcement?
https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewannounce/13750_2/