Englander 30 - Runs Hot?

[BurnIt13]

Hi everyone! Now that the weather has been getting colder and draft has been getting better I've been getting a kick out of all the "did I over-fire my stove?" threads. I figured its time to ask a question.

My Englander 30 with 22 feet of stove and chimney pipe wants to run pretty hot. On a reload or even after a fresh start the temps will normally get up to about 750 before settling in. I only leave the door cracked for a moment (if needed) and dial down the air intake in increments as soon as I can. I usually can't get away with completely closing the intake but I'd say I leave it an 1/8 or 1/4 inch open. When the secondaries kick in the 30 becomes a box of hellfire! That's when the temps start climbing. 750 stove top and 800 stack temp is very common.

At this point I'll usually turn the blower on for fear of the stove getting even hotter and the stove will idle like this for another hour or two and start slowly decreasing its temps.

The only reason I'm complaining is because 750 degrees with the blower on makes the house too damn hot I must be doing something wrong because I read that most people get their fire going and the stove idles at 500-550 for hours before cooling. That would be ideal for me. Plus I think I'm going through wood much faster at 750 than I would be with a stove temp of 550.

What am I doing wrong? If I try to close the intake sooner I always end up smoldering the fire an get tons of smoke. The excessive heat really isn't a problem, just too much of a good thing. What worries me is if I have a brainfart and forget about the stove for a minute before completely dialing it down....that it would go nuclear and I'd be one of those people asking if I overcooked my stove!

Your advice, as always, is greatly appreciated!

 

[oldspark]

You have just described my stove for the most part, have you tried turning the primary air down sooner in small increments, I use my damper now but the flue temps can still get close to 600 if I dont stay on top of it.

 

[BurnIt13]

I usually leave the intake fully open until the fire looks healthy enough and the stove/flue temps are starting to climb. On a fresh start I would start closing the intake to about 50% shut when the stove is getting towards 250 degrees. Its probably then a 10 minute process of closing the intake in smaller increments until it is about 90% shut. Then depending on the load and/or heat output I'll continue closing it even further.

I try to stay ahead of the temps. Shutting the intake down when the stove is already 600 isnt going to help much. The intake is closed to about 1/8 to a 1/4 inch pulled out by the time the stove hits 450 and the flue is around 500.

I should also mention that I did the dollar bill test and the door gasket seems perfect.

I'm not complaining about the heat, I just know that I'm not getting the best burn times and that I'm eating too much wood with this beast running at 750.

 

[Huntindog1]

I have had the over fire issue with my stove a few times and what I have found may help you in your situation.

But one thing I see is that your stove pipe gets hotter than your stove top , thats is different than my situation as my stove pipe temp about 12 inches above the stove is like 400 but my stove top temp will get like 900 or peg the stove top gauge at like 950 or higher. I took a digital thermocouple reading one time and the stove top was like 1050.

So alot of your heat is being sucked up the flue so you might use a manual flue damper as that will also help slow down the air intake a little.

Last night my air intake and my pipe damper was " fully closed" completely and the stove pipe was like 390 and the stove top was 800 and it was just cruising there with nice secondaries. This stove is a little hard to get temps up but once it does it does well.

But 2 things I have noticed and others have mentioned on here is that if you stack the wood high and stack it high up front like lets say your stacking east west, this will heat the stove up as this leaves just a little space up at the top around the secondaries. This because the stoves burn smoke gases becomes like a little high temp burn chamber and with the wood stacked high up front by the door will reduce how well some of that heat can go up the flue and it holds the heat in the stove adding to the over heat condition. But with your flue temp at 800 sounds like your getting the heat up the flue. So you might not stack the wood as high even tho your trying to get as much wood as you can when its cold for a long burn. Alot of stoves say no higher than the fire bricks.

A trick I have found that should work with the big 3.5 CF box you have is to make your stove into a 2 chamber stove by raking your coals forward opening up the back of the stove so as no coals are in the back part of the stove and stack your wood east west in the back all the way to the bottom so as its not sitting on any hot coals. Then the only place you have hot coals is up front so then the wood up front stacked east west is the only wood sitting on hot coals and the stove gets to burning only in the front and the wood in the back is sitting there waiting for the stove to burn front to back.This will limit having all the wood sitting on coals and burning all at once generating too much heat. Plus stacking East West is better as it slows the burn down more than North South loading. As with North South extra air circulates and gets things burning hotter and faster.

 

[pen]

Are you using hardwoods, softwoods, or some sort of man made fuel? With the burn you are describing and the stove top going to 750 and staying there, if you just leave the air 1/4 to 1/8 inch open, how long can you go and still have coals to reload on w/out needing kindling?

I'm going to assume you have single wall stove pipe? Are you measuring the 800 w/ a probe thermometer or is that the surface temp? How far up the pipe are you getting this reading?

pen

 

[BurnIt13]

Good questions Pen. I'm burning mostly a mix of red and white oak, with a little ash as well.

If I leave the stove at 750 at 1/4 to 1/8 inch open, and I load is N/S with some large splits on top of a modest coal bed for an overnight burn....I will be able to reload 6-8 hours later. If I reload with 3-4 medium splits I will be reloading in 3 hours. This is without using kindling.

I have 5ft of double wall stove pipe going into 17ft of double wall chimney pipe. The chimney pipe is framed in an interior chase. There are about 6ft of poking out of the roof. The top of the chimney pipe is 2.5' above the peak, which is 8ft away.

I have a probe thermometer inserted into the double wall flue. It is about 18-24" up the stovepipe (can't remember exactly off-hand).

The stove temps thermometer temps are verified with a Fluke IR gun.

When it is running at 750 and I completely close the air intake I will continue to get a good burn for up to an hour. After that the stove cools too much and I end up with a smoldering smokey mess.

 

[oldspark]

I'm out, my flue temps are exterior on a single wall pipe.

 

[Jags]

I must be doing something wrong because I read that most people get their fire going and the stove idles at 500-550 for hours before cooling.

These are from different people with different stoves. The NC30 is kinda known to be a hot burner, much like the Isle Royal. Other than suggesting a smaller fuel load, turning down the air sooner or possibly even a key damper in the pipe, you will probably find this to be business as usual.

 

[pen]

Good questions Pen. I'm burning mostly a mix of red and white oak, with a little ash as well.

If I leave the stove at 750 at 1/4 to 1/8 inch open, and I load is N/S with some large splits on top of a modest coal bed for an overnight burn....I will be able to reload 6-8 hours later. If I reload with 3-4 medium splits I will be reloading in 3 hours. This is without using kindling.

I have 5ft of double wall stove pipe going into 17ft of double wall chimney pipe. The chimney pipe is framed in an interior chase. There are about 6ft of poking out of the roof. The top of the chimney pipe is 2.5' above the peak, which is 8ft away.

I have a probe thermometer inserted into the double wall flue. It is about 18-24" up the stovepipe (can't remember exactly off-hand).

The stove temps thermometer temps are verified with a Fluke IR gun.

When it is running at 750 and I completely close the air intake I will continue to get a good burn for up to an hour. After that the stove cools too much and I end up with a smoldering smokey mess.

To me, this sounds like a perfect burn.

Before I tried anything big for changes, I'd do as Huntingdog suggested and make sure you are pulling your coals forward before a reload. When doing this, I'll sometimes take and put 1 piece E-W in the back, then load my wood above from there NS. You may want to even try experimenting using an entire EW load for cooler temps and longer burn times.

If you were hitting 850+ stove top and 1000+ flue temps with the air fully closed, then I'd consider changing other things w/ the setup itself, but I say those numbers sound perfect and you need to experiment w/ loading technique to extend burn times and get less heat out of a large fuel load.

If you want to keep things N-S and extend reload times by preserving coals on less wood keep the ash bed pretty thick in the stove and do the one log e-w in the back like I mentioned. That log will get pulled forward for your restart and will keep coals back there a long time. The pretty deep ash bed (as deep as the dog house air even blocking it) will help keep a smaller load up higher in the stove and closer to the middle / top of the burn chamber. I also load 3 or 4 pieces in there for a small burn like like in an upside down V shape.

Sounds like you have about the perfect draft to me. I'm jealous.

pen

 

[GAMMA RAY]

Burnit.....I am getting temps like you described but my stack temps are about 400 I have single wall.
The 30 is a fierce heating machine.
I do the one e/w split in the back (like pen suggested) and the rest n/s.
I am still in the learning curve, I tend to put too much wood in but I am working on that. :-S

 

[logger]

I have a probe thermometer inserted into the double wall flue. It is about 18-24" up the stovepipe (can't remember exactly off-hand).

The stove temps thermometer temps are verified with a Fluke IR gun.

When it is running at 750 and I completely close the air intake I will continue to get a good burn for up to an hour. After that the stove cools too much and I end up with a smoldering smokey mess.

In short, seems like you are comparing your internal flue temps to other people's outside surface temps.. always a big difference. Pick up a magnetic thermometer if you want to see where you stand as far as surface temps, but the internal one is more important and more precise.

 

[pen]

I have a probe thermometer inserted into the double wall flue. It is about 18-24" up the stovepipe (can't remember exactly off-hand).

The stove temps thermometer temps are verified with a Fluke IR gun.

When it is running at 750 and I completely close the air intake I will continue to get a good burn for up to an hour. After that the stove cools too much and I end up with a smoldering smokey mess.

In short, seems like you are comparing your internal flue temps to other people's outside surface temps.. always a big difference. Pick up a magnetic thermometer if you want to see where you stand as far as surface temps, but the internal one is more important and more precise.

He has double wall pipe, so that surface thermometer wouldn't do much for him.

pen

 

[Buck1200]

I would call this normal based on my experience with my Hearthstone Heritage, and a sign of good draft in a secondary air type stove. I've just moved to the Progress and found that my flue temps will sit at 400 for a good 3-5 hours (depending on fuel), presumably due to the burn regulation capability of the cat (as well as the huge mass). You are sending heat up the flue, but that's just the way these secondary air stoves work. A flue damper will help extend burn times as long as you implement it smartly and ensure it does not kill the secondary burn and cause a smouldering, smoky fire. I did this on the Heritage and it helped extend burn times, though sometimes it would die out in the coaling stage leaving unburned chunks, which was kind of annoying.

Keep in mind that your overall fuel efficiency would be worse even though burn times might be longer (and flue temps lower) if you allowed the stove to smoulder and smoke. Again, it's just the way these secondary air stoves work.

Good luck.

 

[certified106]

Posted in the wrong place, Sorry about that.

 

[pen]

Let's keep the thread on track. If you want to discuss a different stove unrelated to the Original Posters, just carry it over to a new thread or PM's.

Thanks,

pen

 

[kjayhawk]

With our 30, bigger splits = cooler fires and longer burn times.

Last night with temps in the upper 40's here, I loaded the stove with a good amount of smaller elm, hickory, and oak splits. The stove top hit nearly 700 ... which is hot for our stove. The night before (with nearly the same outside temp) with a load of bigger elm, hickory, and oak splits, the stove top peaked at 575. Bigger splits make a big difference in our stove.

Also, we don't reload for the night until the stove top dips to between 200 and 250. Reloading the stove at over 325 always means a hotter fire in our stove.

 

[BurnIt13]

Thank you everyone for the replies! It seems that everything is in good working order and I just need to work on my loading skills. I have been in the habit of leaving plenty of air spaces between the splits to "get things going". I will try the E/W log in the back and stack some N/S in the front a little tighter.

BTW....I have a pretty good ash bed right now. Its been 5 weeks since I swept the chimney and cleaned out the ashes. Tomorrow I will sweeping the chimney again but I will leave some ashes behind for a good insulator.

Its going to be warm today (44) so I'll probably end up letting the stove go cool after this mornings burn (6am) and start from scratch tonight. I won't have any coals by then but two Super Cedar quarters will light it right up.

 

[logger]

I have a probe thermometer inserted into the double wall flue. It is about 18-24" up the stovepipe (can't remember exactly off-hand).

The stove temps thermometer temps are verified with a Fluke IR gun.

When it is running at 750 and I completely close the air intake I will continue to get a good burn for up to an hour. After that the stove cools too much and I end up with a smoldering smokey mess.

In short, seems like you are comparing your internal flue temps to other people's outside surface temps.. always a big difference. Pick up a magnetic thermometer if you want to see where you stand as far as surface temps, but the internal one is more important and more precise.

He has double wall pipe, so that surface thermometer wouldn't do much for him.

pen

Yah, I meant for a stove corner though.

 

[Huntindog1]

Speaking in General about these high efficiency stoves,

Remember that the depth of the coal bed is a factor . Loading on an inch of coals is different than loading on 3.5 inches of coals. I got an over fire situation from loading on a really deep coal bed when the stove was extra hot. People talking about what stove top temps to reload at are most likely taking into account coal bed as if your coal beds is deep your stove top temp will most likely be higher. So many factors..... Dryness of wood , Temp of stove on reload, How full you load it, How much air is getting in between the logs, How much space is left at the top of the stove, Is the wood stacked high in the front maybe slowing down the exit of exhaust gas up the flue, which holds more heat in the top of the stove, What kind of wood you using as better wood puts out more BTU's, one guy in another post brought up the point that filling the stove full reduces the area that the draft has to pull air from so a full stove is sucking more air in thru the secondary tube holes more than a stove that has just a couple pieces of wood and lots of open space. Now take this one step further and does stacking the wood high in the front up by the door and window cause higher stove top temps and cause the heat to build quicker, is this because its allowing the draft to suck more air in thru the upper burn tubes by creating this little space or area in the upper back part of the stove creating more vacuum. But another guy mentioned that stacking in the front blocks the primary doghouse air which is air that comes in and basically can shoot straight up and not be blocked by the baffle plate, thus keeps the stove cooler as cooler airs is mixing in and going strait up the chimney. So as you can see so many factors but its nice to be aware of them. Another factor is running a blower people report that using the blower gets some of the heat off the stove quicker and tames things down a little. My blower blows from the back up over the top of the stove which cools the exit pipe a little and most likely reduces the draw some plus the air flowing over the top of the stove gets the heat off the top of the stove a little quicker and with less heat the stove may calm down a little as its partly the difference of temps that is figured into draw of air into the stove.