Hearthstone phoenix Stove running cold

[swestall]

Not sure about your "smoke". I am sure you should get virtually no smoke when the stove is burning correctly with a proper liner.
I have nothing but heat waves and an occasional hint of white coming from my stack after a few minutes of burning. If I shut the stove down too quick after light off, then I will smoke: that's operator error.
We just got back from a trip and the stove had been down for a few days. I cleaned out all the ashes, put a few pieces of news paper in and broke 1/2 a super cedar on top of that, then put two 4 in splits front to back and two side to side and lit it off. Within 5 minutes it had taken off and was not smoking.
The liner at the top of the stove can be taken apart but you have to remove the burn tubes. I would not recommend this mid season and I am not sure why you would have to do that. When you clean the stove in the spring, you need to be very careful to get at the as buildup over that shield, but you can do this from the top with the pipe off. Use a plastic hose on the shop vac and go easy. The tubes do need to be maintained. I am not taking mine apart, rather I am brushing them off with a brass brush and sucking out buildup. I may clean them in a couple of years, but at this point there is not much build up inside them. The air comes out of them not in.
Another thing you want to do is to get that stove up to temp before you shut it down and then not to shut it down too much. I do shut it down for MAX burn overnight but lately, I've been burning with it about 1/4 open at other times. I still get a good longer burn, but I am not producing as many coals and am getting more heat. Bottom line is you have to burn the wood to get the heat, so the longest burn doesn't necessarily give you the most heat. My goal has become to get the house nice and toasty in the evenings and then to shut down when we go to bed so the house temp floats down slowly as we sleep.
My wife recently told me how much she likes that she can just throw a couple of good splits on in the AM and things start right off, she doesn't have to pay attention like she used to with the other stove. (VC)
I loved the VC CAT stoves and hated the non-CAT so much that I pulled it in about two months and just disgarded it. BUT, the Hearthstone and other units (Englander, Morso, PE, Quad, etc) are so much better that I can say this was exactly the right move.
So, get the stove hot, then shut to 1/2, then go down a bit if you want. Hot is 500-600. The stove can go to 700 without a big concern but you don't need to take it there to get fantastic heat and you'll burn more wood the hotter you go.l

SW

 

[aurora04444]

swestall, Thanks for the long detailed note!
In the last week, I managed to stop the oil furnace from causing me horrid headaches with its fumes. The furnace and Mansfield are now on the same chimney and I hope to limp along until spring and fix that whole mess!

So for now, I am turning on the oil furnace 4 times day to heat my 1000 sq foot basement to keep it above freezing and to prevent frozen pipes. So the chimney is getting really hot from the furnace and the draft on the Mansfield is so great! My current chimney is 12'x 12" interior measurements.

In the morning: on top of 3-4 inches of coals, I place 3 medium sized 16 inch long pieces put in with their ends out and one across on top, leave the door ajar and it roars to life! I leave the door open about 5-7 minutes to get a good burn, then close the door and shut the air lever maybe 1/8th closed for another 10 minutes. It starts to put out heat. I then close it to ¼ closed and it gets up to what I think is 500-600 temp fast (I will get a stove top thermometer!) and then I shut the air lever down to 1/2 or a little more closed and let it crank the heat out. I have notice that shutting it down ¾ or more dramatically reduces or stops the heat.

I also have been lugging enormous piles of wood upstairs and stacking it in the hot kitchen. I can hear the wood popping loudly and creaking as it dries.

So cleaning it, I can take off the stove pipe and clean from that direction carefully? Is this liner white? Is it fabric like or hard? Is it in one piece or two?

Speaking of the burn tubes, one of mine in the front lost its screw, so it is loose and will fall half-way out. It produces lots of fire jets when the air lever is closed down any amount. I need to find what size that screw is and get another one. I’m assuming the screws are stainless. But for now, I am careful and reset the tube so that holes are facing forward after putting the three lower pieces in. I will see if I can check the burn tubes to see if they are clogged.

Thanks!

 

[aurora04444]

I was able to brush off the burn tubes wth a steel brush, to make sure the holes in the burn tubes were clean. And I unloosened the screws and made sure that the burn tubes were empty and then refastened them. I also replaced the screw to hold the front burn tube in place.

I noticed that the holes on the back two burn tubes are smaller than the front two burn tubes. Is this normal?

My Mansfield is still smoking like crazy from the chimney. After spring comes and it warms up a bit, I will take off the stove pipe and clean from that angle.
I did see the two soilid pieces placed above the burn tubes and the 2 inch or so soft layer on top. What is this soft fiberglass like stuff?

Any other ideas why it is smoking so much?

 

[aurora04444]

I was able to brush off the burn tubes wth a steel brush, to make sure the holes in the burn tubes were clean. And I unloosened the screws and made sure that the burn tubes were empty and then refastened them. I also replaced the screw to hold the front burn tube in place.

I noticed that the holes on the back two burn tubes are smaller than the front two burn tubes. Is this normal?

My Mansfield is still smoking like crazy from the chimney. After spring comes and it warms up a bit, I will take off the stove pipe and clean from that angle.
I did see the two soilid pieces placed above the burn tubes and the 2 inch or so soft layer on top. What is this soft fiberglass like stuff?

Any other ideas why it is smoking so much?

 

[swestall]

http://www.hearthstonestoves.com/wood-stoves/stove-details?product_id=2

Go to this link and download the manual. It may be a bit different from your stove, but not much.

The soft material is a kawool blanket that sits on top of the shield, it is supposed to be there and you have to be careful if you are cleaning in there.

Have you tried to just burn down a load of wood with the air all the way open? It does not seem that you should be getting so much smoke. You may be getting a lot of steam because of your stack and the temps. Can you smell wood smoke alot, or are you just seeing white rising from the stack?

When you try burning the stove open for a load, watch it carefully, if it gets to 575+, you should shut it down to about 1/4 or less. All the way if it doesn't begin to stabilize. You should look at the rear under the stove, you will find two air inlets that feed the air tubes. When you shut the stove all the way down this is where the air comes in to the tubes. The air begins to come in there at about 1/2 closed and shifts to all drawing from there fully closed. You may never need to know about this, but if you ever get a fire that just takes off, you can plug these holes with some aluminum foil and it will shut the stove down. Just and FYI.

When you've burnt all the way or 3/4 open for a long time and the stovetop is up to about 475-550, then try shutting it down a little at a time to see what effect it has on the stove and that smoke. Try to get a feel for when it is and is not making smoke. I do think that a proper stack will solve the problem in the long run.

We sometimes think that we can get great heat from these stoves and at the same time have them shut down for the long burn. In the end you have to burn wood to get heat. The more open that stove is, the more heat it puts out. I am going to try installing a damper at the stove pipe adaptor next time I have it off. I want to see if I will be able to have the air more open to burn hotter and at the same time slow things down a bit by closing the damper off some. I read on the forum that some folks are having good luck with that.

The manual should help you with how the stove is build, somewhat anyway. Whatever size the holes are, that's the way it comes. The greater air comes out the front, since that is where the exhaust pulls from.

So, read the manual, experiment with hotter burns and see if you can find a place that the smoke goes away or comes back.

 

[aurora04444]

Hi swestall, The new Hearthstone site doesn't have the manuals anymore. I click on documents and nothing happens.
But I got my manual #8010 sent to me last spring, after I emailed Hearthstone for it. Although there is a listing of parts, there is not a detailed picture showing how it all goes together. The new manual #8011 also doesn't show anything. I've read them 3 times and there isn't much help.

 

[swestall]

I suspect it is your chimney. When I had a VC Everburn (which I like to call the Neverburn) I had a lot of problems with it. I did not have those problems with the CAT Defiant. I came to the conclusion that I hated the Everburn system, but that also, the non-cat stoves really need the proper size flue to work. They seem to be very sensitive to the correct draft. I don't recall what your unlined chimney size is, but what you need is a 6 inch flue to draw properly. And, if it is 30 feet, you'll need that damper too.
If the existing unlined chimney is oversized and longer you will definately not pull hard enough on the stove and that sounds like what is happening. I'd say burn it open more until you can get a liner in there.

 

[madison]

swestall, Thanks for the long detailed note!
In the last week, I managed to stop the oil furnace from causing me horrid headaches with its fumes. The furnace and Mansfield are now on the same chimney and I hope to limp along until spring and fix that whole mess!

Not to be an alarmist, but you may not be "limping", but dead! Your headaches may well be a sign of carbon monoxide exposure
http://www.carbon-monoxide-poisoning.com/symptoms.html

I would think sharing the chimney with the woodstove is the problem, (besides potentially carbon monoxide poisoning) even with the furnace "turned off", the furnace would still draft, thus reducing the draft to the woodstove.

I do not think it would be safe/or possible to put a liner in the chimney and still have the furnace venting into the masonry chimney shared with the woodstove. I hope you have a carbon monoxide detector, especially if you continue to use the furnace and woodstove in the same chimney.

Please be safe.

 

[swestall]

Yes, you are correct about two appliances in one flue. It doesn't sound like he is intending to change that set up. But, he could easily take the furnace off and not use it at all.
I also supsect that it is the two appliances drafting into one flue; that's what I've meant by it is his stack.
I just hope he lines it and figures out a solution, like you do.

 

[aurora04444]

swestall, Thanks for the long detailed note!
In the last week, I managed to stop the oil furnace from causing me horrid headaches with its fumes. The furnace and Mansfield are now on the same chimney and I hope to limp along until spring and fix that whole mess!

Not to be an alarmist, but you may not be "limping", but dead! Your headaches may well be a sign of carbon monoxide exposure
http://www.carbon-monoxide-poisoning.com/symptoms.html

I would think sharing the chimney with the woodstove is the problem, (besides potentially carbon monoxide poisoning) even with the furnace "turned off", the furnace would still draft, thus reducing the draft to the woodstove.

I do not think it would be safe/or possible to put a liner in the chimney and still have the furnace venting into the masonry chimney shared with the woodstove. I hope you have a carbon monoxide detector, especially if you continue to use the furnace and woodstove in the same chimney.

Please be safe.

Hi madison, Thanks for your warning. People die up here in Maine every winter having generators in the house, so we know about CO. I do have a top of the line CO monitor and since I fixed the furnace, no headaches! But the CO monitor never showed any readings even when I was getting the headaches. And swestall is correct, I will be taking the 100 year old furnace off the chimney as soon as it warms up. And I will have fun removing it and taking it to the dump As far as the chimney, If I have enough room in the chimney, I was thinking of installing two liners. It would give me the flexibility to have a stove upstairs or in the basement, each with its' own chimney liner.
As far as the draft, my chimney interior is 12x12 and the wood stove draft is amazing now that I am turning on the furnace 4 times a day for an hour each time.
I am a 37 year old woman!

 

[madison]

I didn't want to alarm you, but was concerned when I read the "headaches" and flue issues.

CO alarms should be tested, each has it's own method, but i think a lit cigar or something similar held close to the unit is typical... Placement of the detector is also key, I believe they want them located near the bedrooms, so they wake you up. But I once had a faulty furnace, and temporarily moved the detector into the workroom where the furnace was located and it detected carbon monoxide, where two stories up in the bedroom it did not. Our family room at that home was in the basement next to the "furnace room", so I added a second detector in the furnace room. AS well as repaired the furnace.

 

[swestall]

12x12 is way too big for the Mansfield, it's optimal stack is 6inches. But, you raise an interesting point. I imagine sometimes you have to leave the house and need heat for longer periods of time. You might get two 6 inch liners in there. You can insulate with vermiculite by dropping it in over the liners.
You could also just put the 6 inch in and then install a pellet stove. If you had the interest in Pellets you'd be able to get a lot longer run time with them which would keep the house warm when you had to be away longer.
I would say that your 12x12 is most likely the culprit for your stove smoking. Keep a good eye on this setup if you are going to continue to use it.
You've got some good building blocks to go forward with.