Help! Blaze King Asford Insert underperforming

[jhoule]

My first post....
I'm incredibly disappointed with my brand new Blaze King Asford insert. The stove's burn time at best is maybe 5 hours ( my understanding it should be 15-20 hours), the fan on high is equivalent to low on my Harman Accentra & Napolean 1402 (yes I have 3 stoves) & frankly has a hard time heating up the 350 sq. ft room it's in. I feel like I purchased a total lemon! My two other stoves burn incredibly well and I paid a fraction of what the BK cost me. The dealer came over and said my problem is due to a noninsulated liner. I don't believe it. It's a interior chimney. Thoughts?

 

[kennyp2339]

The stove needs an insulated liner because it has the ability to light off the cat at internal temps of 500deg f, this would create cool flue gas temps below 250deg (which is when smoke can condense and cause build up) The epa air tube stoves reburn and cruise with internal temps at 1,100 degs f, so naturally the flue gases at a 80% efficiency would be much hotter. That being said and your issue is to different things.
First is check the cat, take the front flame shield off and make sure its seated all the way in, put the flame shield on. Operate your by-pass handle, see if you can feel the flap opening and closing (or at least hear it)
Burning techniques - only close the by-pass when the cat probe is reading active, adjust the t-stat knob for desired heat output, the cat being brand new should almost peg the probes needle at the 5-6 o'clock range with the t-stat set at 3/4 open. Look up through the viewing window and see the cat glowing red/ orange.
If this isn't occurring then there might be an issue with the stove or fuel supply.
If this is occurring but your not getting and real usable heat then take a look a the install, do you have a block off plate or is the heat that's getting produced allow to go straight up the chimney and get absorbed into the masonry? If there's a block off plate is there insulation above it (rock wool, not fiber glass) If the fire place large and again acting like a giant heat sink (masonry can absorb up to 1/3 of the stoves heat produced)

 

[darktower007]

My first post....
I'm incredibly disappointed with my brand new Blaze King Asford insert. The stove's burn time at best is maybe 5 hours ( my understanding it should be 15-20 hours), the fan on high is equivalent to low on my Harman Accentra & Napolean 1402 (yes I have 3 stoves) & frankly has a hard time heating up the 350 sq. ft room it's in. I feel like I purchased a total lemon! My two other stoves burn incredibly well and I paid a fraction of what the BK cost me. The dealer came over and said my problem is due to a noninsulated liner. I don't believe it. It's a interior chimney. Thoughts?

Wow.. well I just sent a deposit on one.

As above stated and the dealer I bought from said it requires an insulated liner (not cheap) and block/bottom off plate. She also said to insulate behind the unit with Roxul etc for maximum heat production.


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[jhoule]

The stove needs an insulated liner because it has the ability to light off the cat at internal temps of 500deg f, this would create cool flue gas temps below 250deg (which is when smoke can condense and cause build up) The epa air tube stoves reburn and cruise with internal temps at 1,100 degs f, so naturally the flue gases at a 80% efficiency would be much hotter. That being said and your issue is to different things.
First is check the cat, take the front flame shield off and make sure its seated all the way in, put the flame shield on. Operate your by-pass handle, see if you can feel the flap opening and closing (or at least hear it)
Burning techniques - only close the by-pass when the cat probe is reading active, adjust the t-stat knob for desired heat output, the cat being brand new should almost peg the probes needle at the 5-6 o'clock range with the t-stat set at 3/4 open. Look up through the viewing window and see the cat glowing red/ orange.
If this isn't occurring then there might be an issue with the stove or fuel supply.
If this is occurring but your not getting and real usable heat then take a look a the install, do you have a block off plate or is the heat that's getting produced allow to go straight up the chimney and get absorbed into the masonry? If there's a block off plate is there insulation above it (rock wool, not fiber glass) If the fire place large and again acting like a giant heat sink (masonry can absorb up to 1/3 of the stoves heat produced)

Thank you for the quick reply. My two other stoves put out great heat without a block plate or roxsul insulation. Why does the BK need a plate/insulation? Any suggestions on how to insulate a liner that's already installed?

 

[kennyp2339]

Thank you for the quick reply. My two other stoves put out great heat without a block plate or roxsul insulation. Why does the BK need a plate/insulation? Any suggestions on how to insulate a liner that's already installed?

Disconnect the liner, wrap in insulation and reconnect it. Or if the liner is sitting centered in the flue you can pour a vermiculite mix down the chimney with the liner as is, but it needs to be centered and 3" around the liner for the mix to make it down @bholler is your go to guy here for this advice, (I'm just a weekend warrior)
You old inserts burned at a much higher level then the new one, so you had more heat coming off of it, Internal fire box temps for secondary burn to occur need to be around 1,100 deg f, obviously this would be much hotter burning at a faster rate then the bk which can lite off at 500deg f internal fire box temp, but stretch out a burn +15hrs. The block off plate will help the heat coming off the bk from rising up the chimney and being absorbed into the masonry.
The blowers should run just like any other blower though, while its a remote chance, the blower knob is set to low not allowing you to get full blower effect, or a motor is not working (there are adjustments within the switch for fan speed)

 

[jetsam]

I don't think that insulating a liner is going to resolve a low heat output problem or take your burns from 5 hours to 20, although it is a good idea for other reasons, and may increase your heat output a little. I haven't heard a lot about the Ashford 25, but something is wrong if it won't heat a small room.

Tell us how the insert is vented?

How your wood is dried and stored?

What is your procedure to start a fire and burn the stove? Are you closing the cat bypass? (Ashford owners, does that bypass cam over like the other stoves? The insert appears to have a push-rod control.)

When you burn the stove on high, does the cat glow?

If you turn the thermostat down all the way, does the fire appear to go out?

 

[jhoule]

Disconnect the liner, wrap in insulation and reconnect it. Or if the liner is sitting centered in the flue you can pour a vermiculite mix down the chimney with the liner as is, but it needs to be centered and 3" around the liner for the mix to make it down @bholler is your go to guy here for this advice, (I'm just a weekend warrior)
You old inserts burned at a much higher level then the new one, so you had more heat coming off of it, Internal fire box temps for secondary burn to occur need to be around 1,100 deg f, obviously this would be much hotter burning at a faster rate then the bk which can lite off at 500deg f internal fire box temp, but stretch out a burn +15hrs. The block off plate will help the heat coming off the bk from rising up the chimney and being absorbed into the masonry.
The blowers should run just like any other blower though, while its a remote chance, the blower knob is set to low not allowing you to get full blower effect, or a motor is not working (there are adjustments within the switch for fan speed)

Curious to get your thoughts on using rock wool to insulate the damper area and some at the top of the chimney also in lieu of an insulated liner?

 

[jetsam]

I think @Tegbert heats 1900sf with just that insert, so maybe he can help.

 

[jetsam]

Curious to get your thoughts on using rock wool to insulate the damper area and some at the top of the chimney also in lieu of an insulated liner?

I would add a blockoff plate. It still won't meet BK's recommendations but it should work fine, on an interior chimney especially. The goal is to keep the top of the flue above 250F.

 

[webby3650]

Disconnect the liner, wrap in insulation and reconnect it. Or if the liner is sitting centered in the flue you can pour a vermiculite mix down the chimney with the liner as is, but it needs to be centered and 3" around the liner for the mix to make it down @bholler is your go to guy here for this advice, (I'm just a weekend warrior)
You old inserts burned at a much higher level then the new one, so you had more heat coming off of it, Internal fire box temps for secondary burn to occur need to be around 1,100 deg f, obviously this would be much hotter burning at a faster rate then the bk which can lite off at 500deg f internal fire box temp, but stretch out a burn +15hrs. The block off plate will help the heat coming off the bk from rising up the chimney and being absorbed into the masonry.
The blowers should run just like any other blower though, while its a remote chance, the blower knob is set to low not allowing you to get full blower effect, or a motor is not working (there are adjustments within the switch for fan speed)

He won’t be able to pour insulation in. The flue must be blocked at the bottom first, otherwise it just fills the fireplace up with the insulation. Not good.
The liner should have been insulated, but don’t think that’s causing your problem. How tall is the chimney?

 

[jhoule]

He won’t be able to pour insulation in. The flue must be blocked at the bottom first, otherwise it just fills the fireplace up with the insulation. Not good.
The liner should have been insulated, but don’t think that’s causing your problem. How tall is the chimney?

32' liner

 

[webby3650]

32' liner

That should be drafting too hard already. What kind of temperatures are you seeing on the stove?

 

[jhoule]

That should be drafting too hard already. What kind of temperatures are you seeing on the stove?

Good question! I don't know. How should I do that? My Napoleon stove I have a gauge on top of the stove but the BK design doesn't allow for that.

 

[jetsam]

The questions I put up the thread there will let us assess whether the cat, thermostat, gaskets, operation, venting, and fuel are issues.

 

[jhoule]

I don't think that insulating a liner is going to resolve a low heat output problem or take your burns from 5 hours to 20, although it is a good idea for other reasons, and may increase your heat output a little. I haven't heard a lot about the Ashford 25, but something is wrong if it won't heat a small room.

Tell us how the insert is vented?

How your wood is dried and stored?

What is your procedure to start a fire and burn the stove? Are you closing the cat bypass? (Ashford owners, does that bypass cam over like the other stoves? The insert appears to have a push-rod control.)

When you burn the stove on high, does the cat glow?

If you turn the thermostat down all the way, does the fire appear to go out?

We installed a 6" flex liner. The wood I'm using is at around 25% moisture content. I run the stove as directed in the manual. The cat is glowing but if I drop the thermostat to low (all the way) it will fall out of the active zone and usually around the 4th hour it starts to fall out of the active zone.

 

[Tegbert]

We installed a 6" flex liner. The wood I'm using is at around 25% moisture content. I run the stove as directed in the manual. The cat is glowing but if I drop the thermostat to low (all the way) it will fall out of the active zone and usually around the 4th hour it starts to fall out of the active zone.

Turning the thermostat all the way down is too far. On mine the actual flapper inside completely shuts a little above the 2oclock point the rest is wasted movement as the flapper can’t open when the heat starts to drop. 2 o’clock is about the lowest I can go but usually is between 2-3. At that point I can keep my house above 67 at the far reaches down to about freezing. Then I have to turn it up or load the other stove.

You need to give it some time so you can learn where it needs to be on the dial depending on the weather outside. I don’t think the liner is the issue but an insulated one would help. I think you are just turning it too low.


Lopi Rockport
Blaze King Ashford 25

 

[webby3650]

We installed a 6" flex liner. The wood I'm using is at around 25% moisture content. I run the stove as directed in the manual. The cat is glowing but if I drop the thermostat to low (all the way) it will fall out of the active zone and usually around the 4th hour it starts to fall out of the active zone.

The woods a little on the wet side, should be 20% max.
If you’re having trouble keeping the room warm, why are you turning it all the way to off? All the way is too far, vertical is low, but Some folks can’t run it that low without stalling the cat. Especially if the wood is under seasoned.

 

[webby3650]

Good question! I don't know. How should I do that? My Napoleon stove I have a gauge on top of the stove but the BK design doesn't allow for that.

IR no contact thermometer.

 

[jhoule]

Turning the thermostat all the way down is too far. On mine the actual flapper inside completely shuts a little above the 2oclock point the rest is wasted movement as the flapper can’t open when the heat starts to drop. 2 o’clock is about the lowest I can go but usually is between 2-3. At that point I can keep my house above 67 at the far reaches down to about freezing. Then I have to turn it up or load the other stove.

You need to give it some time so you can learn where it needs to be on the dial depending on the weather outside. I don’t think the liner is the issue but an insulated one would help. I think you are just turning it too low.


Lopi Rockport
Blaze King Ashford 25

If I keep it on high max, burn time is only 3-4 hours, therefore I turn it to about the 3oclock position so I can get more burn time.

 

[webby3650]

If I keep it on high max, burn time is only 3-4 hours, therefore I turn it to about the 3oclock position so I can get more burn time.

That’s good. It should be turned down as the room warms up. On 3 it doesn’t heat the space?

 

[jhoule]

That’s good. It should be turned down as the room warms up. On 3 it doesn’t heat the space?

Not as much as one would expect!

 

[darktower007]

I’m new here but as said above if a block off plate is not installed, your heat behind the insert is going right up gap between the liner and the brick, and not in your room where you want it.

https://www.hearth.com/talk/wiki/make-a-damper-sealing-block-off-plate/


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[weatherguy]

My princess insert ran like two different stoves if I burned wood at 25% compared to <20. That's a long liner, that's going to cut way down on burn times unless you can find a way to operate a damper.

 

[Tegbert]

If I keep it on high max, burn time is only 3-4 hours, therefore I turn it to about the 3oclock position so I can get more burn time.

On high my max burn time was 4-5 hours. On 3 the room that it is in is over 80°. On low it will be 75-77.


Lopi Rockport
Blaze King Ashford 25

 

[jhoule]

My princess insert ran like two different stoves if I burned wood at 25% compared to <20. That's a long liner, that's going to cut way down on burn times unless you can find a way to operate a damper.

That was my initial thought! Curious if you could shed more light on that. The guy I bought it from measured incorrectly and the insert sticks out almost 2" which might give me enough room to be able to operate it.