It's started

begreen Posted By begreen, Jul 5, 2017 at 10:59 AM

  1. WoodyIsGoody

    WoodyIsGoody
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    Well, there was never a "horse tax", the transition from horse to car was due to superior economics and capabilities and it happened amazingly quickly. The transition to electric will be the same way.

    Currently, fossil fuels receive more direct taxpayer subsidies than renewable electric. Remove all subsidies and the transition happens even faster. It won't be necessary to tax ICE out of existence - it will go away quickly and naturally on it's own, due to the fact that it's inferior, more expensive, and impractical. In short, outdated.
     
  2. Ashful

    Ashful
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    I wonder how the lack of audible feedback is going to affect driving speeds. Let’s face it, when you stomp on the accelerator pedal of a car with an ICE, you get noticeable audible and tactile feedback on the abuse you are causing to that drivetrain. It may be a large part of the method by which people unconsciously measure their driving speed and ritual.

    By comparison, EV’s have enormous low-speed accelleration potential, and an almost total lack of sensory feedback. Will it make recklessly oblivious drivers even more reckless? Yes, I’m talking about the 17 year old females watching their iPhones while tailgating and plowing thru town at high speed, not necessarily “spirited” driving enthusiasts, although the same question could be applied to both.
     
  3. begreen

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    I was thinking more of a carbon tax or perhaps a glutton tax like they have in the UK.
     
  4. begreen

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    Not at all. Most luxury cars are pretty quiet. There are thousands of Tesla owners that just grin at the silent acceleration. My wife adjusted to silent running in less than a day. If the 17 yr old males and females are looking at their phones while driving they are both breaking the law and darwin award bait. That is a completely separate issue.
     
  5. Ashful

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    We already have that. My daily driver came with a “gas guzzler” tax, which was not small. I was happy to pay it, for the priveledge to drive a fast car, although I know others gripe about it.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_Tax_Act#Gas_Guzzler_Tax
     
  6. NateB

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    Where can I find the data for this? I want to do more research.
    Thanks
     
  7. WoodyIsGoody

    WoodyIsGoody
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  8. woodgeek

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    In my experience you do find yourself going faster than you thought sometimes. Not so much around town, as on the highway. The cars are optimized to also reduce wind noise (which is what the funny LEAF headlights are for).

    Realistically, not a huge problem IMO...as on the highway you match the speeds of those around you. In town, I think we use more visual speed cues than engine/wind noise.

    The sensory feedback is through **acceleration**, and that is clearer than in an ICE car. If I am doing a steady acceleration in an ICE car, like an onramp, I actually hear the engine noise rise and fall, and the acceleration lurch up and down as the transmission shifts. In the EV, I just feel the steady acceleration...no crazy lurches or distracting noises. This is how our brain is supposed to get speed feedback...our onboard accelerometers. The lurches in the ICE car actually confuse that, and of course contribute to motion sickness....my younger kid gets a LOT less sick in the EV.

    I DO find myself doing maneuvers in traffic that rely on high low-speed acceleration. As in, I am trying to change lanes and there is a guy a little too close behind me.....I will just squirt on a bit of speed in a fraction of second and then look and go. In an ICE engine, the same maneuver would seriously rev the engine, might lurch the car back and forth through a tranny shift, make a surge of noise, and take a throttle and shift lag time longer to complete. In other words, the ridiculous kludge that is the ICE drivetrain leads me to drive like a granny. The EV gives me a mind-machine fusion that I have never felt in an ICE car that sets me free. I don't think that's decreasing safety...but what do I know?

    The quiet interior has advantages. Solo commuting my wife listens to books on tape or podcasts and can hear them and enjoy them more. AS a family, we can talk to each other in 'inside voices' and have a conversation, rather than a series of yelled and repeated Q and As.

    If all ICE cars came with a guy that slapped your face at certain speeds (like a transmission shift) and yelled at you continuously at high speeds (like engine noise), I'm sure many drivers would go on about how that guy is central to their driving enjoyment, getting cars with bigger hands to slap with and louder yelling voices...but I think that whole line of thinking is pretty absurd. Bottom line...most ICE cars have chitty driving dynamics, make your passengers motion sick, train people to drive like grannies, get everyone all keyed up to yell at other drivers or their passengers and distract you from your task...safe driving.

    My 17 yo female driver (an EV native...its what she is learning on) seems to be doing aok.
     
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  9. Ashful

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    lol... always love your posts, woodgeek. In truth, my passengers can blame their motion sickness more on my driving, than any automatic transmission shift behavior... but you can run with that.

    Most of my cars are admittedly pretty loud, but that's by choice, there are many very quiet ICE vehicles. Ever ride in an S-class Mercedes? 500 hp ICE on an impressively crisp and seemless 8-speed transmission, and sitting inside is almost sensory deprivation chamber quiet. It can be done. One of the biggest advantages of EV's is they can achieve a few of the performance characteristics of cars that were previously unavailable to 99% of the public, without completely throwing economics to the wind.

    But you sort of skirted the underlying point of my post. It seems to me in my daily driving that only a small fraction of our driving public is competent, intelligent, un-distracted drivers. There are a lot of folks out there that think a car is something to just point in the general direction of your employer each morning, and press pedals while texting, surfing an infotainment system, applying make-up, or eating their Cheerios. Now, with the advent of EV's, we're putting a lot of those folks into something with 0-30 acceleration times of yesterday's Ferrari's, coupled with a reduction in feedback. I'm not saying it will lead to inevitable disaster, but it's an interesting problem to consider.

    Also, citing your daughter as a reference point is a little unfair. You are exceptionally intelligent and thoughtful, it's not a surprise you raised kids that might be exceptional, in many regards.
     
  10. woodgeek

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    Of course I'm glad that you like your car, and that rich folks can get cars with nice quiet interiors and smooth driving dynamics if they like.

    I am trying to respond to your concern....I think you have it backwards. The EV has **better** feedback than a typical ICE car. I can feel the acceleration better, and because it exists without a throttle or shift lag, I get better mind/machine fusion and a stronger sense of control and immediacy. The noise and the lurches are themselves distractions from what is going on, not essential feedback IMO.

    This is why EVs are popular....they have driving dynamics that are generally unavailable at the price point, which is still falling. Seba's motto is "Porsche performance, Chevy price, Neither Porsche nor Chevy will be able to compete."

    When I am driving the EV I feel more in control, attentive and able to respond instantly. I can not only see but also hear and even smell (!) the other cars around me. You know how ex-smokers become super-sensitive to stale smoke smell on current smokers? I swear that I can clearly smell the exhaust of half the cars I'm driving behind, which I seldom remember happening as an ICE driver.
     
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  11. georgepds

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    Basic advantage of ICE: energy density of gasoline compared to any battery... it's orders of magnitude greater..
     
  12. spirilis

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    The lurching can be alleviated a bit by CVTs, as I noticed when test driving the Nissan Versa Note. But it adds an element of lag, which isn't there on the EV... the lower latency response really does give it a mind-machine "fusion" feel.
     
  13. WoodyIsGoody

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    I like that insight, you nailed it. Even if you did leave out the part where the guy in the ICE car farts in your nice clean garage, constantly nags you to get oil changes and filters, replace belts and steals a few $20's out of your wallet every time he get's thirsty. Doesn't even say "Thank-you". But they *like* that guy, they will tell you he is their best friend.

    Some people have built in mechanisms to insure they will never be successful. They constantly make decisions that aren't in their best interest. The reason for this is the same reason they actually like that mean guy that came with their ICE car. They have a distorted view of reality that they think accurately represents reality. It's a rigid mindset based upon certain strongly held and unshakeable concepts that they hold to be true (but that may not be). I think Stephen Colbert illustrated it the best when he stated with a very serious and straight face "Reality has a well known liberal bias".

    People sabotage themselves with erroneous assumptions. I see it all the time.
     
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  14. WoodyIsGoody

    WoodyIsGoody
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    When you think about it, that's the ONLY advantage of ICE.

    And in a world with plentiful and relatively inexpensive electricity, that would no longer be a significant advantage.
     
  15. Highbeam

    Highbeam
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    Cool thread folks. I'm off to look at the used EVs on CL again. Dreaming because I'm cheap.
     
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  16. Ashful

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    Highbeam, you are a man of extremes. I see you in nothing less than a NextEv Nio EP9.

    http://www.nio.io/ep9

    The price is steep, but perhaps we can get Jags to build us one.
     
  17. woodgeek

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    Well, blogger Mr. Money Mustache has now had his LEAF in colorado for a year, and has posted an entertaining long term use review....

    http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2017/10/06/electric-car-vs-winter/

    He echoes a lot of my experience with the older version.

    He get's one thing wrong....he says that the car loses 20% range in the winter because the battery is cold, and is upset it doesn't have a heater. In fact it DOES have a heater, but the 20% loss is largely in increased air and rolling friction at lower temps.

    He also doesn't mention (here) that his battery had a defect that caused his car to strand him a couple times before it was replaced under warranty.
     
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  18. Ashful

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    Nice blog. Did you also see the one of the guy who used his Tesla for uber and air B&B? He was racking up some impressive mileage, which brings me to an important point:

    While the autonomous driving features going into some EV's are just too sexy for the media to ignore, I hear very little talk of what I think is the biggest immediate user advantage of EVs: dealer service. For those of us with too-busy schedules, which includes (at a minimum) every dual-career family with kids, this sole factor could far outweigh all others. I've been slave to buying from just one or two brands, those with dealers within the shortest drive of my house and work, knowing I'm going to need to get those cars there for service several times per year. One of our cars was purchased before we moved to this house, and now the closest dealer requires 3+ hours of driving between drop-off and pick-up, each time it goes in for service (the dealer is 45 minutes away).

    Given the long warranty periods of some cars (our Volvo was 5 years, all maintenance included), you're sort of committed to using the dealer for service. Think of the 10-year Hyundai owners!

    Everything I read seems to indicate the service requirements for EV's might be an order of magnitude lower than ICE cars. Can someone lay out their recommended maintenance schedule, and include actual experience (things like Mr. Money Mustache's faulty battery)? Being able to buy a Tesla from a dealer less convenient to my house might actually become an option, if I know I don't need to visit that dealer but once every second year.
     
  19. georgepds

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    The blogger says the leaf is good in the snow...That's not my experience with the volt.. up here in New England snow tires are a must
    Without snow tires I couldn't get up the smallest incline.

    "The electronic traction and stability control systems work much better with an electric motor, because it can be controlled more precisely. In practice this means that while a normal car would dig itself into a rut, the Leaf applies just enough power to get through the snowbank. Or it stops the wheel, giving you a chance to reverse and give it another go."
     
  20. georgepds

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    ". I may add a trailer hitch and some other minor upgrades, but for the vast majority of our possible uses for a car, it’s a pretty amazing deal."

    Does the manual say you can add a trailer hitch to the Leaf... that's a no no for the volt.. the transmission is not designed for it ( 2 planetary gear sets, your average advanced attack helicopter has only one)
     
  21. spirilis

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    Shouldn't be a problem for BEVs. They don't have much of a transmission (basically the motor is driving a final drive gear/differential and that drives the axles). Parallel hybrids seem to be in a weird situation there. Did the 1st gen Volt suffer that limitation? I thought that was a series hybrid...
     
  22. georgepds

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    More than you ever wanted to know is found here:

    http://gm-volt.com/2015/02/20/gen-2-volt-transmission-operating-modes-explained/


    The gen 1 and 2 have different transmissions
     
  23. woodgeek

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    Hmmm. The LEAF does have scheduled maintenance. I still have to rotate tires every 5000 miles (2x per year), and get an annual inspection and battery check (at the dealer). And wiper fluid and wipers.

    Apparently the brake hydraulic fluid is supposed to be purged and replaced quite frequently. I haven't done this, and its a sore point on the fora. The mech brakes see less wear due to the regen, but the brake fluid is replaced more often than a conventional car....some BS about the less frequent use means less fluid heating and more problem with water getting into the fluid....or some such. Meh.

    In addition:
    --I had a bicyclist launch himself through the rear window and into the back seat while the leaf was at a light. Insurance totaled the rear hatch door, and replaced the whole thing.
    --I have had an AC leak such that the AC has been dead every spring when I first tried to use it. Three trips to the dealer in three years. On the first trip, they did not find the leaky part, just refilled it. On the second trip, the replaced the leaky parts (there was a posted recall), apologized and said I would not be back next year. Another year later ... no AC. They figured that the installer the year before nicked the hose with a razor knife when he was removing it from the packaging....Ugh. I will trade the car in before next spring, so no chance of a fourth trip.
    --3 years ago there was one LEAF tech in the philly metro area, who rotated between several dealers....so I had to have service 'on Thursdays'. That is no longer a thing.
     
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  24. woodgeek

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    MMM is pretty, um, creative. The manual says no towing. And since the motor is torque limited, I don't see what the problem would be...you have poorer acceleration. The brakes are over engineered due to the curb weight. But I expect the range would be nearly useless with any real load. But a Class 1 with a bike rack or cargo shelf...I'd do it if I wanted (and it wasn't a lease).
     
  25. Seasoned Oak

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    Once electrics get out of the compact car segment. they will take off. I dont think i can ever go back to a compact . As i get older i have trouble getting in and out of a full size vehicle.
     

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