It's started

[WoodyIsGoody]

Once electrics get out of the compact car segment. they will take off. I dont think i can ever go back to a compact . As i get older i have trouble getting in and out of a full size vehicle.

The Tesla Model X is not a compact! It's actually cavernous! But right now you gotta pay to play!

 

[woodgeek]

Once electrics get out of the compact car segment. they will take off. I dont think i can ever go back to a compact . As i get older i have trouble getting in and out of a full size vehicle.

Don't know what you are thinking of. The LEAF is a 'midsize' hatch that seats 5 adults, with legroom and headroom equal to or better than a Camry, and a lot more cargo space. The Bolt is slightly bigger.

The shape of the cars is kinda round, so in a picture people assume its a compact because there is no scale bar. They are roomy on the inside.

The new plug-in Prius and Volt are both 4 seaters.

 

[WoodyIsGoody]

--I have had an AC leak such that the AC has been dead every spring when I first tried to use it. Three trips to the dealer in three years. On the first trip, they did not find the leaky part, just refilled it. On the second trip, the replaced the leaky parts (there was a posted recall), apologized and said I would not be back next year. Another year later ... no AC. They figured that the installer the year before nicked the hose with a razor knife when he was removing it from the packaging....Ugh.

That brings up an important point that will be especially applicable to BEV's.

Modern cars are incredibly reliable. Modern mechanics are less attentive to what they are doing than ever. I blame it on video games and SMS (texting) which I believe foster a "go-no go" attitude that ignores the complexities of reality. Actions have consequences and it's surprising to many people how often a problem with their car or other device is attributable to a person who installed something or worked on it. But the consumer often doesn't even realize this because the service tech will cover up their mistake (or perhaps not even be aware of it) by blaming a faulty part. Sometimes less maintenance is better. And BEV's need a lot less mucking about with items that are essential to basic mobility.

BEV's are relatively new and it won't be long before they literally blow away ICE cars in terms of reliability and lack of maintenance required. I believe Tesla is building their business model on NOT relying on service centers to pad profits from sales.

 

[WoodyIsGoody]

The blogger says the leaf is good in the snow...That's not my experience with the volt.. up here in New England snow tires are a must
Without snow tires I couldn't get up the smallest incline.

Do you have a 2016? Because the new ones have an ICE connected to the drivetrain. If you experienced it with the earlier Volts (with pure electric drivetrains) it's probably just because Chevy has never been that good at the kind of sophistication that is necessary for top performing traction control, anti-lock, stability control, etc. These are high tech systems dominated by German (and Scandinavian) companies. A crude solution gives crude results. All electric drive does have big advantages when it comes to snow/ice traction but it takes skill to harness those advantages.

 

[Seasoned Oak]

Don't know what you are thinking of. The LEAF is a 'midsize' hatch that seats 5 adults, with legroom and headroom equal to or better than a Camry, and a lot more cargo space. The Bolt is slightly bigger.
The shape of the cars is kinda round, so in a picture people assume its a compact because there is no scale bar. They are roomy on the inside.
The new plug-in Prius and Volt are both 4 seaters.

Its all relative. Basically to what your used to driving. Anything under the size of an equinox is a compact to me after driving large trucks and vans for 20 years. If youve been driving an actual compact the electrics will seem huge.

 

[Seasoned Oak]

The Tesla Model X is not a compact! It's actually cavernous! But right now you gotta pay to play!

For the annual mileage i rack up, i probably spend more on insurance than gas so as much as i like the electrics im waiting until they offer something the size of at least a midsized SUV before i even consider one.

 

[begreen]

The Volt's traction control works pretty well and is user switchable. It is much better than our 2006 Prius which just chopped power 90% when the tires started slipping. We couldn't get up our uphill driveway in snow with our 2006 Prius. Our 2013 Volt does reasonably well in this regard. No snow tires here we only get snow once or twice a year. It's certainly not as good as our 4WD Subaru was, but I haven't gotten stuck with it either. In neither Volt version does the ICE normally driving the wheels. FWIW, many Volt owners are asking GM to extend the Volt chassis to an SUV form with 4WD. That would sell very well I think.

 

[woodgeek]

Its all relative. Basically to what your used to driving. Anything under the size of an equinox is a compact to me after driving large trucks and vans for 20 years. If youve been driving an actual compact the electrics will seem huge.

I get you, but I will risk being 'that guy' and say that some words actually have meaning. A compact car is a Civic or a Corolla or a Yaris. A mid-size is an Accord or Camry. The latter are often driven by a lot of people (even bigger ones) that would not be caught dead in a compact.

Maybe you should call the latter mid-size group too 'small' for you rather than assert that they are 'compact's.

 

[woodgeek]

The blogger says the leaf is good in the snow...That's not my experience with the volt.. up here in New England snow tires are a must
Without snow tires I couldn't get up the smallest incline.

"The electronic traction and stability control systems work much better with an electric motor, because it can be controlled more precisely. In practice this means that while a normal car would dig itself into a rut, the Leaf applies just enough power to get through the snowbank. Or it stops the wheel, giving you a chance to reverse and give it another go."

All I can say is that I put snow tires on and the LEAF is a monster like MMM said.

I took my 16 year old out last year in a blizzard for drivers ed. Figured we would wallow around in an unplowed parking lot with a few inches of snow and get stuck, practice getting unstuck, have her feel some skids and traction control behavior.

Couldn't do it. Never got stuck or lost control. Maybe the traction control lit for a fraction of a second once or twice. Its like it was spider-man or something. These kids nowadays have it too good.

 

[georgepds]

....No snow tires here we only get snow once or twice a year. ....

Mine is the gen 2, but I think the little snow comment might account for the difference in experience. It was only 2 years ago the snow drifts were higher than many front doors, and the island was evacuated for 2 weeks because the vacuum sewer lines froze solid

 

[begreen]

Mine is the gen 2, but I think the little snow comment might account for the difference in experience. It was only 2 years ago the snow drifts were higher than many front doors, and the island was evacuated for 2 weeks because the vacuum sewer lines froze solid

Yes, I could believe that. When the snow gets higher than the door sills the car will tend float on the snow. Might be the smoother underbody?

 

[Seasoned Oak]

I would think the first one out of the gate with a good reasonably priced electric SUV or Truck should sell well . 80% of the vehicles i see around me every day are Trucks, Vans and SUVs . Partly because this is snow country in winter as is much of the nothern half of the country . AWD and 4WD are everywhere .

 

[georgepds]

Yes, I could believe that. When the snow gets higher than the door sills the car will tend float on the snow. Might be the smoother underbody?

Just to be clear, that was house doors, not car doors,some had to tunnel out.

The suggestion was that there are a few more opportunities for the traction control to fail out here because the roads are more often icy or slushy

 

[georgepds]

Your wife needs to meet my wife and teach her how to drive. She already overruled my desire to have the car she usually drives be a manual. Now she's trying to mandate that when my commuter gets replaced that I have to get an automatic.

By contrast my wife insists on a manual. You should have seen her on the hairpin turns on a recent trip through the Pyrenees.. they are like the white mountains on steroids. The vehicle was a jeep diesel.


Me,I can't wait till the car drives me to work.

 

[WoodyIsGoody]

The Volt's traction control works pretty well and is user switchable. It is much better than our 2006 Prius which just chopped power 90% when the tires started slipping. We couldn't get up our uphill driveway in snow with our 2006 Prius. Our 2013 Volt does reasonably well in this regard.

Both cars are crippled by the complexity and weight/momentum of their mechanical planetary gears with regards to effective traction control compared to a pure BEV. The planetary gears couple the electric and ICE's together via a network of clutches and planetary gears. Saying the Volt has better traction control than a Prius is like saying a Hyundai Tucson is better at rugged off-road rock crawling than a Honda CR-V. Neither one has good traction control compared to a BEV with drive wheels connected to the motor via (at most) a reduction gear. Effective TC relies upon detecting initial slip and reacting in microseconds. If the system allows the tire to fully slip, traction is already broken and must be regained before power can be applied again. A BEV allows a very fast and sensitive traction control that never allows a tire to fully break traction so it never has to fully cut torque to that wheel.

The point is, a true BEV has many inherent advantages over ICE vehicles or hybrid drive vehicles and this holds true even when comparing to a hybrid being driven in a mode with only electric motor(s) supplying the drive force.

 

[spirilis]

I would think the first one out of the gate with a good reasonably priced electric SUV or Truck should sell well . 80% of the vehicles i see around me every day are Trucks, Vans and SUVs . Partly because this is snow country in winter as is much of the nothern half of the country . AWD and 4WD are everywhere .

I have found it tempting to go all-electric and trade in my Mazda3 for a PHEV or BEV but I have decided that it's best to wait for a BEV SUV. Having driven a BEV and test-driven a PHEV, I think the BEV is worth waiting for (especially since I'm in no hurry). We sacrificed having an SUV when we bought the Focus Electric and it'd be nice to have one again. Can't bring myself to even drool over a gas-powered vehicle anymore, just can't look back.

A 230+ mile range BEV SUV would sell like hotcakes imo.

 

[Ashful]

By contrast my wife insists on a manual.

This is a rare point of agreement for my wife and I, we have both always purchased cars with manual transmissions, mostly having to special-order them to get this option over the last ten or fifteen years. However, each of my two newest cars (one sport sedan, one pickup truck) are not even available in manual transmission. In fact, NO extended cab half ton pickup truck is available today with a v8 and a manual transmission. You can choose about a million different paint and trim schemes, and infotainment systems galore, but transmission options are nil. More fodder for the guys on this forum who like to make fun of modern pickups as "highway queens", but I'm the rare bird that will haul 20,000 lb. of firewood with mine on Saturday, and then drive it to airport parking on Monday.

My wife's solution to this waning of manual transmission options in our country, is to hang on to her current car forever. It has a lot of miles on it, but she's not willing to even consider replacing it, unless I can find something comparable. Unfortunately, I don't think it's available in our country, today.

When I press dealers on the issue, asking why cars that are available in Europe with manual transmission are only auto in the USA, they all give the same story: blame our EPA. Their perspective is that our regulations require separately testing and qualifying auto and manual versions of the same car, and the cost of testing the manuals is higher than auto, while the assumed sales volume is lower. I am sure this is the case, but still think sporty European brands (BMW, Audi, etc.) might have more customers interested in manual transmission than most other brands.

 

[Seasoned Oak]

Can't bring myself to even drool over a gas-powered vehicle anymore, just can't look back.

.

Ill still have ICE vehicles for many years to come. Electric model will eventually be added to the lineup but it will have to share the spotlight with its fossil powered ancestors. Ill be looking for a fairly new camaro next year and it will be a standard shift and a oversized mean sounding IC engine .
P.S. GM is idling volt production with 3 to 4 months product backed up. It appears the BOLT since its nationwide rollout is cutting into sales.

 

[WoodyIsGoody]

P.S. GM is idling volt production with 3 to 4 months product backed up. It appears the BOLT since its nationwide rollout is cutting into sales.

Well, yeah. Why buy all the combined problems of a ICE vehicle and a BEV when you can have a pure BEV? Nothing is more complicated than a vehicle with both systems. I prefer to get rid of the stinky bits like the gas tank, emissions systems and complicated and expensive transmissions.

 

[georgepds]

Well, yeah. Why buy all the combined problems of a ICE vehicle and a BEV when you can have a pure BEV? Nothing is more complicated than a vehicle with both systems. I prefer to get rid of the stinky bits like the gas tank, emissions systems and complicated and expensive transmissions.

Range,

also refueling availability and speed of refueling on long trips

 

[georgepds]

...

My wife's solution to this waning of manual transmission options in our country, is to hang on to her current car forever. It has a lot of miles on it, but she's not willing to even consider replacing it, unless I can find something comparable. Unfortunately, I don't think it's available in our country, today.
...

My wife recently bought a 2016 honda civic manual .. They are out there

The 2018 honda civic LX comes with a manual transmission

 

[Ashful]

This is going to sound so much more snobby than it’s intended, but consider its coming from a guy who’s driven quite a long list of cheap cars. The manual trans options are mostly limited to less expensive and compact cars, today. My wife likes to drive nicely outfitted sports wagons, mostly entry-level BMWs (eg. 328i X-drive), Audi (A4 Quattro), Volvo (V50 T5), etc. None of these offer a manual trans, today. I fact, the latter two don’t even offer a decent engine option, anymore.

Their demo has shifted from car enthusiasts, to those who just want a pretentious badge on the most cheaply configured car.

 

[WoodyIsGoody]

Range,

also refueling availability and speed of refueling on long trips

Kind of obvious, no?

But, yeah. Gas stations were very scarce in the early days of the automobile too. That changed VERY quickly as gasoline car sales exploded. Gas stations quickly became the hottest new mom/pop businesses. A similar thing will happen with electric charging stations but it will be small businesses and chain stores/restaurants who will use electric charging to bring customers in.

 

[NateB]

Do you know how to use Google effectively? This article provides a good overview of the various classes of fossil fuel subsidies:
https://www.vox.com/energy-and-environment/2017/10/6/16428458/us-energy-subsidies

I plum did read yer article thar seem to lak comparison to anything. I list some numbers and says using fossil fuels is dirty.

Oh yeah and um i used that that gogle thing you was talkin bout, and I be plum snukered it knowed just a bout plum everything. It seems you only been readin stories from one author. There are what seem to me to be people wit different points a view with data to match.

but I guess to each his own. I will be out splitin wood.

 

[WoodyIsGoody]

Where can I find the data for this? I want to do more research.
Thanks

So I'm guessing your "research" didn't make you happy?

My apologies!