Masonry Heater vs Wood stove

[byQ]

I believe masonry heaters are superior heating devices as compared to wood stoves. Yet it seems no one else realizes this. The real question? How has an inferior appliance (the wood stove) come to dominate the American market as the #1 wood burner?

Fireplaces have been banned in new construction in Washington and Oregon because they are so innefficient. Are wood stoves next? A wood stove is a metal or stone box with a pipe - and a little gadgetry to increase efficiency. A masonry heater is a thermal mass with channels. Why are masonry heaters so far advanced to inferior wood stoves?

* they get over twice as hot in their fireboxes - which means? Means the burn is more complete. Which means you use less wood for heat.
* masonry heaters create an even heat - you're heating a big mass, wood stoves go to extremes - from hot to cold (they are just a box after all, what do you expect?)
* Wood stoves must be attended to and fed constantly, sometimes. Masonry heaters are fed once or twice a day - done.

Masonry heaters are relatively unknown so the parts for them are overpriced and the construction costs are inflated. But if more do-it-yourselfers got interested they could build there own superior appliance for what a new wood stove costs. So good bye woodstock wood stove and hello small contraflow masonry heater.

This masonry heater should cost me between $1000 and $1500 to build myself. All one needs is knowledge, firebrick, some rocks or old bricks, a good door (and a few other gadgets), and a specific type of mortar. The piping should be the same as a wood stove. C'mon man, why are you using a wood stove?

 

[BrotherBart]

Build it Mr. Wizard and post pictures when you are finished.

 

[fossil]

...C'mon man, why are you using a wood stove?

I guess 'cause I'm not you.

 

[webbie]

Sounds like you may not be up on the most modern wood stoves - which equal or surpass most masonry heaters in total efficiency.

That said, masonry heaters are great things!

But it's not an either/or proposition. Only a very tiny percentage of the population are capable of building their own for $2K or less - more likely, a good one will cost 10-15K+.

You have to compare like to like.....a ready to burn masonry heater vs. a read to burn stove. I'd say the MH would be 4X the price in a lot of cases.

But I think you have a narrow view of this. Check out our Boiler Room and you will see a lot of people who have installed storage heaters using water - which are very high efficiency.

You could give $5K rebates and the number of masonry stoves vs. wood stoves would probably not budge.....due to the massive construction required in most cases as well as other factors.

But, yeah, they are really great when done right. We've had quite a few members over the years with masonry heaters.

 

[DevilsBrew]

Don't look at me, I'm into hybrids.

The main problem, besides the cost, with masonry stoves is the weight and space. You aren't going to be sticking a goliath in a trailer.

 

[dznam]

The main problem, besides the cost, with masonry stoves is the weight and space. You aren't going to be sticking a goliath in a trailer.

+1.

Just built a house and consulted with a brand name masonry heater mfg (heat loss calcs, heater design, etc.) about putting in a masonry heater. We found out that the house would have to be dominated (size wise) and built around (i,e, heater would have to be in the middle of the house) the heater. With closed cell foam in all walls and roof, the stove footprint would have made it the primary feature of the house physically and still wouldn't meet our heating needs during cold spells. The comment from the company, "these aren't intended to provide full time 24/7 heating capability in our area. People who buy them rely on conventional "supplemental" heating". So for $20,000, I couldn't match the full-time heating capability of a woodstove, couldn't vary the heat output meaningfully, would have to purpose build the house around it and would have to scratch-build two fires/day (vs never having to restart a woodstove as long as we're not on vacation).

The response I got from the distributor when I laid out my conclusions is that most people buy them for the "aesthetic". $20,000 is a lot of "aesthetic"!

Am glad to have my newest Woodstock to provide easy 24/7 heating with a beautiful hearth and masonry chimney for half that price!

Nothing against these heaters, just my encounter in this space - YMMV.

Look forward to seeing the pics of the build.

 

[Sprinter]

I believe masonry heaters are superior heating devices as compared to wood stoves. Yet it seems no one else realizes this

There has been a lot of discussion about masonry heaters here. These things are nothing new. They are just one more heating option and one that few people choose for any number of reasons.

I have a friend that has one and it is pretty cool for sure, but it was horribly expensive to have built and dominates the house. Fortunately, his house can handle it.

Your comments will be a lot more respected when you have it built, send pictures and objectively describe your overall experience

 

[jeff_t]

I believe the sheer size and weight would deter most, even if the cost was equal. It's a whole lot easier to add a 500 lb stove to the living room, rather than provide a foundation for 5-10 tons of masonry.

I'll just keep chucking wood in my inefficient stove. Every 12-48 hours.

 

[byQ]

I will build it and I will post pictures and "educate" along the way. Imagine yourself as a Viking several centuries ago in the middle of Norse country, it's January (-30 F), no electricity, all wood is almost gone and you have a family you are trying to keep alive. You have time, rocks and a will. This is in fact where masonry heaters came from - survival! Europeans are just smarter than Americans on certain things. And this is one of those things. They build smaller more efficient houses and they heat them with masonry heaters. "Funny Americans, they just don't know any better. They've actually believe wood stoves are comparable. Have you tried to tell them?...You know how Americans are. Once they start doing something they convince themselves of it's superiority even when it isn't so. They'll catch up eventually." Must we always lag behind?

Yes, we know the meaning of waste and excess. Why use something that works better when Joe the wood stove salesman needs to make a living? There is no comparison masonry heaters are as far superior to wood stoves as chainsaws are to hand saws. Truth is truth and facts are facts. A masonry heaters firebox reaches temperatures up to 1600 F. What does a wood stove reach, 500-600 F? The physical principals that govern these two devices must be examined and compared. Cost is high because of unfamiliarity. A few build them and have tagged them as specialty items for the extravagant. Hearth.com should start a masonry heater section. The more people get educated the more they will start realizing the truth.

 

[BrotherBart]

Build it. Then you can lead us from the wilderness.

 

[BrotherBart]

A member here Marty S has a house built around a masonry heater the likes of which the OP can only dream of. And he also uses a cast iron wood stove.

 

[Ram 1500 with an axe...]

Post some pictures. Post some of the actual masonary heaters that we should be using...

 

[Sprinter]

Build it. Then you can lead us from the wilderness.

Wait, I like it here!

 

[Bster13]

-I don't have masonry skills and to pay someone would jack the price.
-I don't feel like reinforcing my floor, or paying someone to do it.
-It would take up a lot of space in my home.
-The masonry heater can't move with me to the next house if need be.
-I can't resell my masonry heater on craigslist to recoup costs if I decide to give up wood heating.
-I get all the free wood I can handle so a little less efficiency is ok with me. Cost of a masonry heater over my lifetime will not be recouped.
-They aren't as efficient as Pellet Stoves (according to: (broken link removed to http://www.epa.gov/ttnchie1/ap42/ch01/related/woodstove.pdf), page 6)

 

[byQ]

Post some pictures. Post some of the actual masonary heaters that we should be using...

On my journey I went from wanting steel wood stoves to soapstone wood stoves to than wanting to buy a masonry heater kit. A masonry heater kit is basically a bunch of molded masonry cement pieces that you put together - this makes up the core. The company you are buying the kit from has the mold, which they make the large pieces from. I looked into this and the prices are ridiculously high, just for the kit. You still have to cover the core with rocks, common bricks, etc..... Next, I looked into purchasing a small masonry heater. The best deal I could find was with M. Teixeira. They offer a small soapstone MH (masonry heater) for around $5k with free shipping this time of year (youtube - M. Teixeira soapstone masonry heater). But I still wasn't satisfied. What exactly is a MH?

It looks like a pile of stone and/or brick put together in a specific way to me - nothing more. I'll build one! There is a web site, Masonry Heater Association (MHA, check it out) that I started trying to learn from. There is info but not a lot, and that is the problem, How can the common guy or gal build something if there isn't any info out there? It is all pretty new in America/Canada.

Anyways, I learned if you live in the Ohio, Pennsylvania, Illinois area you can get good firebricks cheap, like $1.30 per brick (Alsey refractories, Alsey Illinois). A core for a small MH uses less than 100 bricks. Hey that isn't too expensive! And even a large core might cost you only $300 in fire bricks. What about the outer layer? Any old thermal mass will work - common brick, cinder blocks, river rocks, stucco,....get creative. I already have a big pile of old school bricks so I'll just use these (almost free). People keep telling me that these MHs are really expensive but I'm getting all the parts for not that much $, Huh?

You must have a special door for a MH because it gets much hotter than a wood stove - a wood stove door won't work. The best deal I could find on one was $400 (19" x 19"). If only MH were more common doors would be cheaper - oh well. There are a few other things but that is about it. Plans help but I've seen some step by step pictures that one could use probably just as well (thanks to those who shared their building process). I think once a person learns the basics of masonry and also understands what a masonry heater is really doing they are on their way.

 

[BrotherBart]

Go forth and mortarfy.

 

[begreen]

I wanted to put in a Tulikivi when we remodeled but the wife nixed that idea.

 

[byQ]

-I don't have masonry skills and to pay someone would jack the price. Neither do I
-I don't feel like reinforcing my floor, or paying someone to do it. Well maybe if you build a new house some day...
-It would take up a lot of space in my home. The one I building is 24" x 36" and 5' tall - so its footprint isn't much bigger than your wood stove and it's better
-The masonry heater can't move with me to the next house if need be. Some small ones can, but no not large ones - if you built it, you can use your knowledge to build a better one
-I can't resell my masonry heater on craigslist to recoup costs if I decide to give up wood heating. True, true true
-I get all the free wood I can handle so a little less efficiency is ok with me. True again
Cost of a masonry heater over my lifetime will not be recouped. Not in my case I will recoup my $1000 to $1500 in short order, thank you.
-They aren't as efficient as Pellet Stoves (according to: (broken link removed to http://www.epa.gov/ttnchie1/ap42/ch01/related/woodstove.pdf), page 6)

Yes pellet stoves have slightly higher efficiency rating, but masonry heaters provide better heat, huh? And pellets cost $, whereas wood can be gathered - hooray for the go getters!

 

[Bster13]

I don't know how you qualify "better heat."

 

[DexterDay]

Everyone loves there stove and most of us have a lifestyle that can accommodate "Stoves" (be it pellet or wood)

I still save over $3,000 a year using pellets and wood.

Masonry heaters are for a certain breed.

This is my subscription to this thread. I am looking forward to this heater and some pics. We have a rule here.

That rule.... No pics = Never happened

Good luck in your build. I have ventured onto Premies.com (spelling) there are some interesting designs there. Never joined. Nor posted. But read a lot.

 

[byQ]

I don't know how you qualify "better heat."

All heat is not the same. This is very very important when trying to understand the difference between masonry heaters and wood/pellet stoves. The heat they produce is different. You hear people say that the heat from a masonry heater feels better, why? I found this,

"........Another positive consideration in favor of a masonry heater is it's ability to provide even heat over a much larger area within your home. A masonry heater produces radiant heat which warms walls, ceilings, floors and objects in the room, not the air directly. The air in the room in turn is warmed to the same temperature as the surfaces and the objects in the room. The secret of natural convection of air to adjoining rooms lies in the fact that the surface temperatures in the adjoining rooms (being in the shade) are slightly cooler than the room directly heated by the masonry heater (being in the sun). The laws of thermal dynamics dictate that heat flows from warm surfaces to cool surfaces. This occurs through convection of air between rooms. As long as there is an opening between rooms the air temperature will equalize naturally. The natural convection process will continue until the wall temperatures are equal in both rooms. Convection between rooms will not stop until the masonry heater stops radiating to the walls of the room where it is located (12 to 24 hours). When you walk from one room to the next it will be similiar to walking from the direct rays of the sun into the shade. When you walk into an adjoining room you will lose the direct warmth of the masonry heater's "sunshine" but the air temperature will change very little if at all.

With a hot air convection appliance like a pellet stove most of the convection related to this appliance occurs within the room it is located and not between adjacent rooms. This is why you are often too hot in the room with the appliance and too cool in the adjoining rooms. With pellet stoves or forced air systems that generate hot air, the air rises to the ceiling, comes in contact with the coolest outside wall in the room, settles to the floor, sweeps across the floor creating a draft on its way back to the pellet stove or the cold air return of the forced air system. The colder it is outside, the greater the need for more hot air, the greater the speed of convection (air movement) in the room, the greater the "wind chill" in the room, the less comfortable you are in the room. Often with a convection type heat system, it is necessary to rap a blanket around you as you read a book or watch television. On the other hand, with a radiant system you just sit in the sunshine......"

I guess the thing to take away is that a MH produces radiant heat as opposed to convection type of heat.

 

[Bster13]

Well I guess you have to build it now to verify all yours claims. GL!

 

[byQ]

I found these, too. He says a masonry heater only uses 1/5 the amount of wood as a steel wood stove - wow, this is hard to believe.

"....Inside, masonry stoves (heaters) burn hotter than metal wood stoves, and masonry heaters winding maze of flue (baffles) warms the surrounding masonry, which than emits heat for 18 to 24 hours. The temperature can reach 2000 F inside some masonry heaters (vs 700 F inside a metal wood stove), yet masonry heaters stay comfortable to the touch on the surface. At these high internal temperatures, the hydrocarbon gases ignite, leaving very minimal pollution. .... A metal stove gives out its heat rapidly, thus never allowing the inside combustion temperatures to achieve the 1100 F plus needed to ignite all the gases...."

"...Because the stored heat radiates slowly from the masonry, it is only necessary to light a fire once a day in most cases. In really cold conditions, you might need to light two fires a day. Metal wood stoves must be tended to continually, and they fluctuate from peak high temperatures, to no heat, when the fire goes out. If you tamp down the flue on a metal wood stove you increase the emissions of pollutants as the combustion of the wood is incomplete. A masonry heater always burns wood at the highest heat. And if you desire less heat, you simply use less wood. In a well insulated home, a masonry heater will use 1/5 (or much) less wood, then a home heated with a metal wood stove. All well designed masonry heaters easily outperform the highest rated EPA certified metal wood stoves. And like a wood stove, a masonry heater can exhaust through a metal flue pipe....."

 

[begreen]

It is hard to believe. The heat loss of the house is going to determine the amount of btu input necessary to heat the home.

 

[webbie]

I will build it and I will post pictures and "educate" along the way. Imagine yourself as a Viking several centuries ago in the middle of Norse country,

Truth is truth and facts are facts. A masonry heaters firebox reaches temperatures up to 1600 F. What does a wood stove reach, 500-600 F? The physical principals that govern these two devices must be examined and compared. Cost is high because of unfamiliarity. A few build them and have tagged them as specialty items for the extravagant. Hearth.com should start a masonry heater section. The more people get educated the more they will start realizing the truth.

Truth is the Vikings walked and sailed. Are you suggesting we also change to that more efficient method of transportation?

How about the "truths" of them raping and pillaging? That's pretty truthful and efficient and maybe even "natural".

If we started a MH section it would have about zero population. There is a great site for Masonry Heaters and we have linked to it and steered people to it for 15+ years.
http://masonryheaters.org/

Why should we, who have little experience in the matter, try to take visitors away from a site that does it better? Let me know the truth on that matter.