need help with drolet into old fireplace

Status
Not open for further replies.

terwin1

New Member
Sep 29, 2016
68
Butler, IN
I'm getting ready to hopefully put a drolet escape 1800i into my existing fireplace which appears to be some kind of old heatilator unit. I'm a bit confused with some of the information I've been pouring over. Is this a zero clearance? Can I fit this or another insert into this?

House is about 1800 sq feet with baseboard heat built in the 40's. I will get dimensions and a better/more pics when I get home. carpet is gone. back to hardwood that sits flush with tile in front. there are no blowers in it. the damper is a rectangular plate not like a butterfly but more of a lever type thing. looks like metal box needs to come out. I don't want to tear out any brick unless I have to inside for ss liner clearance. chimney is same brick with rectangular clay flue. could I just cut this whole box out and put the insert in. what if anything additional would be needed underneath the insert for insulation. Thanks in advance. sale on insert ends in 2 days.
upload_2016-9-29_17-19-1.png
 

begreen

Mooderator
Staff member
Nov 18, 2005
82,681
South Puget Sound, WA
Looks like a heatilator. If so it is a metal can in a masonry structure and not a ZC. Is there a true masonry chimney all the way up?

Lightened up the photo to make the brickwork and vents more visible.

upload_2016-9-29_17-19-1.png
 

begreen

Mooderator
Staff member
Nov 18, 2005
82,681
South Puget Sound, WA
32" wide 24" tall 24" deep. Width tapers to 23" wide at back.
Is this the dimension of the interior metal? If so, why cut it out?
 

terwin1

New Member
Sep 29, 2016
68
Butler, IN
Damper door is too small for liner and in front of flue. Seems like it might be easier to just pull inner box/damper out for room to work/make liner connection. It seems like what's there would have been decent with blowers. I tried it last year. Seemed to suck more warm air out of house than anything. It's my first home. Bought last November. Had a hearthstone freestanding growing up. I miss real wood heat.
 

terwin1

New Member
Sep 29, 2016
68
Butler, IN
It is true masonry. Clay flue liner. Brick on outside matches inside and bottom surround around house. Original home owner was a brick layer. Those are the dimensions inside of what's there. Those would be maximum dimensions I could have in an insert to not have to cut that inner box out.
 

begreen

Mooderator
Staff member
Nov 18, 2005
82,681
South Puget Sound, WA
Removing could be a lot of work. Wondering if it may also reduce structural support? What about just cutting out a 7-8" wide passage through the damper area?
 

terwin1

New Member
Sep 29, 2016
68
Butler, IN
I need to open the damper and look up in there with a flash light. If memory serves me correctly tho it is like the brick was built around the metal can tightly so clearance even past the damper may be tight or require a brick or two be cut. another thing is that the drolet dimensions are 28.375" wide x 23" tall x 15.625" min. depth leaves insert protruding a few inches which ive heard is better anyway. I'm going to draw it in inventor and see what the stack up looks like. I am concerned with my 28.375" width not allowing the unit to slide in to the right depth for liner alignment. Is the metal can really going to effect structure? will my current masonry support 400lbs of insert? the one picture shows a full masonry support wall that can be seen through the ash cleanout door. I'm thinking that door might be nice to allow my insert to pull air to burn from the basement rather than my house.

heres a link to installation manual.
http://hw.menardc.com/main/items/media/STOVE001/Install_Instruct/45554A_11-09-2014.pdf
 

terwin1

New Member
Sep 29, 2016
68
Butler, IN
upload_2016-9-30_11-5-8.png

Above is a rough estimate of how my current setup would fit. below shows what would need cut out.

upload_2016-9-30_11-8-3.png
 
Last edited by a moderator:

begreen

Mooderator
Staff member
Nov 18, 2005
82,681
South Puget Sound, WA
It looks like it will be a close fit. One option is to let the insert protrude a little more onto the hearth. A gap around the surround can easily be filled with flat stock if small or angle metal painted black if > 1/4". Or leave the surround off entirely.
 

terwin1

New Member
Sep 29, 2016
68
Butler, IN
I can bend my own sheet metal surround up. the one that they sell for this unit would overlap my old vents and look poorly anyway. I'm going to have to extend my hearth any way I figure it so the fan has something to sit on. looking at the way these heatilators are constructed I don't see why the internal box would be structural. the outer box I could see being important. it basically just seems like a firplace template to block around. the measured dimension shown at 14.319" in my top model is measured from the back of the stove to the highlighted flat blue edge on the heatilator front which I extended to represent the location of the brick face of my fireplace. the drolet manual lists that this dimension needs to be 15.625-17.75". any less and the surround would be over top of what appears to be the heat jacket on the insert. any more and the insert will be inset into the hole. page 9 of the linked manual above shows the dimension I am referring to. Are you saying that when I build by surround say it would normally protrude for the fireplace face 1/2". instead make it stick out 1.5" or something so it still meets the insert at the 15.625" point but is also butted up against the brick face. I can model this if what I'm saying isn't clear. visuals are always helpful.

Also I plan on leaving that ash clean out open. my thought being that the fresh air intake(also shown on page 9) is on the side and I wasn't planning on running one but if I just open that up and the old heatilator is essentially sealed by the surround and top plate that will seal the bottom of the chimney(do I need this plate with pre-insulated liner?) then wouldn't this basically force the stove to pull air from the old ash cleanout door(basement) instead of the heated air from my home?
 

terwin1

New Member
Sep 29, 2016
68
Butler, IN
extending the insert farther out into then room then may cause liner alignment issues tho right?
 

begreen

Mooderator
Staff member
Nov 18, 2005
82,681
South Puget Sound, WA
Thinking of extending it only 1/2-1", but yes, one needs to be mindful of the liner alignment. Sometimes it takes putting a 15 or 30º elbow at the flue collar to line things up.
 

terwin1

New Member
Sep 29, 2016
68
Butler, IN
height of unit is 23.125" my window is 24". I don't see any room for an elbow unless it is one that goes to the side. I'm not positive my chimney is centered with the fireplace. I'm going to open up the damper and get a plum bob of some sort up top to see where it drops. weather here hasn't allowed me to do so yet. tomorrow morning looks clear though. I will have to order the insert so I have a week until it will be at menards. sale on them is 999.00 right now. I looked at the 1400i but it seems like it would be undersized and is the same width but less depth and height.
 

terwin1

New Member
Sep 29, 2016
68
Butler, IN
need advice on a liner. clay flue is 6-5/8" x 9". preinsulated looks like it will be too big. height its probably 15' or so. book recommends 6" liner. menards has a Selkirk kit for 325 or something that comes with top plate and all that but by the time I get insulation in there its no cheaper than pre insulated. the wrap insulation seems to be the most popular option but seems like it would want to slide off the liner. I don't like the idea of thermix. does anyone make a loose fill insulation that can just be poured around the liner but isn't like a setting compound that would have to be busted out later.

upload_2016-10-3_10-12-58.png
 
Last edited by a moderator:

terwin1

New Member
Sep 29, 2016
68
Butler, IN
Just for anyone reading over this in the future. I cut out my inner box, damper, smoke shelf area behind damper. It was not the most fun job in the world, but I think the extra room that I have now will be worth the time when it comes time to set the insert in, install block off plate, connect liner. It took about 4hrs with a sawzall and a 4.5" 7amp grinder running a cut off wheel. If you have access to a 6" 11-13amp grinder the extra power would have been nice, but a bit more dangerous in spots. For my particular unit none of what I cut out appeared to be structural. No brick was against or braced by anything I removed. if it was I would have rewelded in supports to gain my clearances and provide structure.

At a bare minimum the back of the inner box, maybe back half ish, would have had to be removed as well as a good center portion of the smoke shelf and damper door. To do that it would have been about the same amount of work as just taking it all out and I'm getting a ton more room to work. for example to take out the smoke shelf was roughly 2 12" cuts and a 24" cut. I left some space on the sides that would have been a nightmare to get to. To just cut out the center bare minimum would have been 2 12" cuts and an 8" cut. the insert would fit with less cutting but the liner would have never had room to be hooked up even with an elbow had the box not been altered. the way it is now my insert will actually sit so the blower front is level with the brick fireplace front or maybe stick out just a little. I should have no clearance issues come install time. I'll try to get a pic up of my finished space tomorrow.

Wear a respirator and ear plugs. I didn't like an idiot. was smart enough to put on safety glasses. sweep as much as you can get to out at all times. I used a shop vac with a fine filter. drywall bag would be a good idea too in the shop vac if you have one, but I didn't notice anything coming out the exhaust. drywall bag would be nice for clean up though. I hadn't burned since last winter so the shop vac was fine. I wouldn't recommend it if there's even a slight chance anything could still be hot in there.

Hoping to get installed this weekend. ordered liner yesterday from fireside chimney supply. it is scheduled for free delivery today and price was competitive.
 

Easy Livin’ 3000

Minister of Fire
Dec 23, 2015
2,668
SEPA
extending the insert farther out into then room then may cause liner alignment issues tho right?
I did a very similar install last year with a twin to your Drolet, and wish that I'd had a couple of the different offset adapters, as the alignment was off just enough to cause problems. If you can buy a 15 and 30 (and maybe even 45) degree, and return the ones that you don't use, your install might go way more smoothly. Also, they sell a part that allows you to connect the adapter to the top of the stove from the inside of the stove that I should have bought (and highly recommend) instead of the surround that I ended up not using.
 

terwin1

New Member
Sep 29, 2016
68
Butler, IN
yeah I planned on making my own surround just because what theirs costs is a bit ridiculous for what it is. the liner fastener thing does look like a good idea, but it makes me wonder about how it affects flow and possibly lets things build up so I'm going to use it as a last resort. The plan now is to use my 1/4" drive adapter with a long extension and a magnetic hex driver for the self-tappers while holding the liner from inside. seems like it will work but probably require some swear words. With an elbow I could probably gain 2" toward the room.

how do the elbows work. is it just like a bent appliance connector or is it straight appliance connector to elbow. elbow to liner.
 

terwin1

New Member
Sep 29, 2016
68
Butler, IN
cool. liner should be on door step when I get home. I'll kind of hold the straight connector up with an angle finder to see how it looks.

Thanks.
 

Easy Livin’ 3000

Minister of Fire
Dec 23, 2015
2,668
SEPA
Check out the following links:

http://www.woodlanddirect.com/Chimney/Chimney-Liner-Parts/Elbow-30-Degree

http://www.woodlanddirect.com/Chimney/Chimney-Liner-Parts/Elbow-15-Degree

https://www.menards.com/main/heating-cooling/fireplaces-stoves/stove-accessories/liner-fastening-system/p-1444444138138.htm

My experience would have me prepared with these parts for your install. You can check out all the elbows at the woolanddirect site, would be really nice if they are available locally. I actually will be buying these and reinstalling my setup at some point in the future. Save yourself potentially many trips up and down off the roof!
 
Status
Not open for further replies.