Possible to over-stuff fire box ?

[msnell]

I'm sure this has been asked before, but I couldn't find it after a few searches.

With the Blaze King (Ashford 20), I understand the catalyst & air control knob are supposed to be an automatic safety for overheating. But what about overstuffing the firebox? Is it OK to put as much wood as will fit without putting pressure on the box itself? Or should I not go higher than the fire bricks are tall around the sides?

 

[Dieselhead]

When it’s called for I stuff mine to the gills. As little air space as possible. Lots of great photos in the wood shed forum in the post named “what’s in your stove”. It’s called stove Tetris 🤓

 

[begreen]

It is possible to overwhelm the cat, especially if the wood is super dry. Top-down lighting helps reduce a large, initial bloom of wood gases.

 

[stoveliker]

BK advises to stuff it.
Why? Opening the stove is not ideal (for the cat, for efficiency, for particle emissions). Stuff it and run it for as long as the need-for-heat makes you set the thermostat.

Indeed top down lighting is the best.
And if it takes off fast, close the bypass a bit earlier than the gauge indicates (often you see the cat start glowing immediately anyway; the gauge lags behind).
I have a tall flue and sometimes run "wide open" on a cold start - with the wide open not with the thermostat at 6 pm, but at 4.30 or so, so that I restrict the air a bit and it accelerates less fast. That will avoid a bloom of gases when you dial down further.

 

[fao1989]

I'm sure this has been asked before, but I couldn't find it after a few searches.

With the Blaze King (Ashford 20), I understand the catalyst & air control knob are supposed to be an automatic safety for overheating. But what about overstuffing the firebox? Is it OK to put as much wood as will fit without putting pressure on the box itself? Or should I not go higher than the fire bricks are tall around the sides?

I stuff my A25 insert in every square inch I can fit dry wood!

 

[Tron]

Indeed top down lighting is the best.

I'm not sure how that makes a difference. We're talking about a cold start, yes?
By the time the stove has warmed up sufficiently I can close the bypass and engage the cat, all of the wood is ablaze, so top-down or bottom-up doesn't really make a difference.
If you have wood that doesn't catch immediately, maybe so, but not in my case.

But to the OP: yes, stuff it to the gills. I often have some gaps in there due to the size/shape of the splits and I'm not going to roam through the wood pile to find that one piece that fits that tetris spot exactly, but other than that...

 

[stoveliker]

Top down creates less smoke. Having initial flames from a bottom up lick the not yet burning wood above, you create more smoke.
Going top down does not have much wood in mediocre temperatures creating smoke.

Indeed a reload (which is a bottom up lighting of a new load) creates much more smoke for me than a top down cold start. Even though the reload has the bypass closed (I think the cat is not hot enough to combust the large quantity of smoke when it's near the bottom end of the active range, and it needs a bit of time to get up to temp to do so), and on a cold start the bypass is open.
In my case. Mostly hardwoods, 4+ years old (this year; next year it'll be 3...), and a tall flue (though a long horizontal section too). ymmv

 

[helmingstay]

You also want to look at the diagram towards the beginning of the manual that shows the usable space in the firebox shaded in gray. It took me a few tries to understand this diagram in relation to the actual stove. My understanding is that wood should go no higher than the flame guard, even if there's space to wedge wood into the upper sides.

 

[msnell]

You also want to look at the diagram towards the beginning of the manual that shows the usable space in the firebox shaded in gray. It took me a few tries to understand this diagram in relation to the actual stove. My understanding is that wood should go no higher than the flame guard, even if there's space to wedge wood into the upper sides.

Thanks for the reminder this was in manual. Though it seems like if you're loading N/S this "usable" area is pretty much as much as you could pack in anyways. It looks like the only area you could maybe go above that is putting something up front E/W and way up high in front of the cat.

 

[stoveliker]

interesting, those angled side shields are absent in my (30.2 model) stove. I can have my splits touch the big air tubes in the top left and right because the shields up there are parallel to the vertical wall of the stove.

 

[helmingstay]

Ah, I have Ashford 25 insert, and the air tubes aren't shown in the diagram. My reading of *my* diagram is that wood shouldn't be placed directly in contact with the air supply tubes, which took me a minute to realize (and appears consistent with the placement of the shields shown for the Ashford 20).

 

[Highbeam]

Stuff the firebox full. The BK design doesn't allow a "bloom" of gasses to run away from you as may be the case with noncat stoves and their unregulated secondary air supplies.

Bonus, keeping the ash level low means more room for more fuel which means longer burns and more heat released.

Now if you're in the shoulder season, there comes a time when a partial load is necessary because even at the lowest output setting the stove can overheat the home. Then you are forced to use a pulse and glide method to try and not overheat the home.

 

[begreen]

Stuff the firebox full. The BK design doesn't allow a "bloom" of gasses to run away from you as may be the case with noncat stoves and their unregulated secondary air supplies.

Bonus, keeping the ash level low means more room for more fuel which means longer burns and more heat released.

Now if you're in the shoulder season, there comes a time when a partial load is necessary because even at the lowest output setting the stove can overheat the home. Then you are forced to use a pulse and glide method to try and not overheat the home.

With some exceptions. There is this caveat in the manual:

"INTRODUCTION

All Blaze King wood burning appliances are designed as radiant room space heaters. They have been tested and certified to be installed in insulated, habitable rooms within your dwelling. The appliance has not been designed to be installed in a concrete, uninsulated basement or in a shop/garage environment. Such applications may cause the thermostat to be unresponsive due the constant call for heat resulting in appliance being in a constant over fire situation. Consequential damage from this type of operation will deem the warranty null and void."

 

[Highbeam]

Okay so don't install it in the garage. Can't really see how that's relevant to the question.

 

[begreen]

Okay so don't install it in the garage. Can't really see how that's relevant to the question.

Or uninsulated basement, a much more common scenario. The point is, there is a possiblity of overfiring, not none, as some claim.

 

[stoveliker]

Yeah, and a PE can melt, if you install it with a 30 ft chimney.
Too tall chimneys also are common.

Of course you can always cook up a scenario where things go to hell. But neither is relevant.

This was about blooms of uncontrollable gases *in a stove installed to specs.*

Bringing in a far-fetched example of a stove NOT installed to specs is a straw man argument.

 

[begreen]

Yeah, and a PE can melt, if you install it with a 30 ft chimney.
Too tall chimneys also are common.

Of course you can always cook up a scenario where things go to hell. But neither is relevant.

This was about blooms of uncontrollable gases *in a stove installed to specs.*

Bringing in a far-fetched example of a stove NOT installed to specs is a straw man argument.

Not far fetched when it's in the stove's documentation. This wasn't put in there as a whim or a one-off scenario.

 

[stoveliker]

A straw man argument.

You responded to this

"
Stuff the firebox full. The BK design doesn't allow a "bloom" of gasses to run away from you as may be the case with noncat stoves and their unregulated secondary air supplies.
"

SUre he didn't say "for an install to specs"

So let me cooknip a similar argument about PE stoves.
They can melt.


Sure, not when it's installed to specs,n but that didn't witjjold you from the straw man example above either
When your flue is 60 ft they melt.
See the manual says that it should be 15 ft or whatever it says.

You would not allow any user to say "be careful,.PE stoves can melt".
And then point to the 15 ft flue mentioned in the manual


That is the same straw man argument as you used.

 

[begreen]

Stuff the firebox full. The BK design doesn't allow a "bloom" of gasses to run away from you as may be the case with noncat stoves and their unregulated secondary air supplies.

Why turn this into an us vs them argument? The fact is that under some conditions the stove can be overfired, just like any other stove. It is irresponsible to state otherwise. The manufacturer and we do not know where the stove is going to be installed. This is not to disparage the thermostatic design of the stove, just to caution that there are limits, the same as a too tall flue, or other edge conditions.

 

[stoveliker]

The definition of a straw man argument is to pose a misrepresentation of what was being discussed, in order to shoot it down.

We were discussing a normal installation to mfg specs.
In that situation the statement by high beam was correct.
Your "but if you install it outside of specs, it could" is a misrepresentation, and the negative remark you placed did not apply to the situation that was discussed.

I didn't intend to make it us vs them. My example was merely (explicitly noted to be irrelevant and) meant to show a similar straw.man argument from another side (a side where you reflexively always defend the product,name that I thought might help you understand that what you did was not right).

Another such straw man example would be that PE stoves are known to smoke up the room if you install with a short flue.
But given that we were talking about installation within specs, and not with a flue of 3 ft, that would be a straw man argument as well.


Back to the thread, and apologies.
The BK doesn't suffer from gas blooms due to uncontrolled air let into the firebox. And that stability is a useful safety feature.

Of course any statement about a stove or its safety refers to installation per mfg specs, as anything can happen to any stove if one doesn't.

 

[moresnow]

Not to enter the fray......
Guess I've been lucky.
Put a Princess in an uninsulated concrete foundation basement. Zero issue other than the completely expected heat loss.
Put a Princess in an uninsulated garage/shop. Zero issue as well.

Both basement and garage were eventually finished.

Yet to figure out what might put a BK over the edge

 

[Highbeam]

Why turn this into an us vs them argument? The fact is that under some conditions the stove can be overfired, just like any other stove. It is irresponsible to state otherwise. The manufacturer and we do not know where the stove is going to be installed. This is not to disparage the thermostatic design of the stove, just to caution that there are limits, the same as a too tall flue, or other edge conditions.

I did no such thing, you are mistaken. The BK design is uniquely able to prevent overfire by closing the throttle automatically.

It must be assumed that the installation and operation is in compliance with the manual. Your strange argument otherwise is like saying, "but if you burn gasoline in the stove it could overfire".

 

[stoveliker]

That was me, well a misinterpretation of an analogous example I gave.

And your gasoline example is exactly the point I tried to make. You did that better.

 

[Highbeam]

Not to enter the fray......
Guess I've been lucky.
Put a Princess in an uninsulated concrete foundation basement. Zero issue other than the completely expected heat loss.
Put a Princess in an uninsulated garage/shop. Zero issue as well.

Both basement and garage were eventually finished.

Yet to figure out what might put a BK over the edge

I'm convinced that room temp and outdoor temp have some impact on burn rate for a given thermostat setting. As in, it's not just stove temperature. Maybe that was obvious to everyone else. It works out correctly where the stove puts out more heat when more heat is needed.

Maybe if the basement was ice cold and the stove was pushed up against the cold uninsulated walls the thermostat would "feel" the cold wall so much that it would allow the stove to overfire. Has anybody reported such behavior? That seems to be the situation the manual is addressing with that warning.

 

[Tron]

I'm convinced that room temp and outdoor temp have some impact on burn rate for a given thermostat setting.

Of course they do. Maybe not outdoor temperature, but the air temperature entering the stove certainly has an effect on the thermostat. I would be surprised were it otherwise.