Road Salt

[Seasoned Oak]

BG - Chat moved to separate thread

I feel like bituminous tar and rubber being washed off the roads is also a bad idea.

And road salt -ice melt chemicals. Might be hard to find a more eco friendly for these. Sand works to some extent.

 

[SpaceBus]

And road salt -ice melt chemicals. Might be hard to find a more eco friendly for these. Sand works to some extent.

Beet juice works better than salt or calcium chloride, but it is more expensive, but also better for the environment.

 

[Ashful]

Beet juice works better than salt or calcium chloride, but it is more expensive, but also better for the environment.

Beet juice as ice melt? I know it’s a popular non-corrosive CaCl2 replacement for tire ballasting, but wasn’t aware it was a good ice melter. I will say it’s as slippery as greased ice when it leaks onto your barn floor, which likely makes it a poor choice for ice melt applications, even if it does melt the ice.

 

[SpaceBus]

Beet juice as ice melt? I know it’s a popular non-corrosive CaCl2 replacement for tire ballasting, but wasn’t aware it was a good ice melter. I will say it’s as slippery as greased ice when it leaks onto your barn floor, which likely makes it a poor choice for ice melt applications, even if it does melt the ice.

The biggest downside appears to be roads that smell of stale coffee... As if that's worse than salt

Cities are starting to put beet juice, beer waste, and pickle brine on icy winter roads to cut down on salt

Cities are finding inventive ways to help salt stick to roads instead of washing into lakes and rivers.

www.businessinsider.com

 

[Seasoned Oak]

Any kind of ice melt i ever saw used on sidewalks damages the concrete. Not sure how they put so much on the concrete highways and it doesnt eat them to pieces. It sure does eat sidewalks and steps to pieces. Even the stuff that claim "safe for sidewalks".

 

[Ashful]

Any kind of ice melt i ever saw used on sidewalks damages the concrete. Not sure how they put so much on the concrete highways and it doesnt eat them to pieces. It sure does eat sidewalks and steps to pieces. Even the stuff that claim "safe for sidewalks".

We don’t have many concrete highways left in eastern PA, most have been covered with blacktop over the last 25 years. I always assumed this was the reason for it.

 

[Seasoned Oak]

We don’t have many concrete highways left in eastern PA, most have been covered with blacktop over the last 25 years. I always assumed this was the reason for it.

They did do a big part of Rt 81 with concrete yrs ago, possibly when oil went thru the roof ,but i seems like they are converting it all back to blacktop . Was like driving over a washboard with the concrete. Dont ,miss it a bit.

 

[peakbagger]

There are various surface treatments that can be applied to pavement in advance of certain storm types that prevents the ice from adhering to the road. It requires good planning in advance. The treatments are not cheap but can reduce the amount of salt used. Salt is mostly a convenience. It extends bare tar conditions into the winter. That allows more traffic to go faster with marginal equipment. Far northern countries typically do not use salt. They also require studs or chains and traffic goes slower. Long ago I had an uncle that owned an auto junkyard north of Montreal. The cars from north of him had good bodies but rough suspensions while the cars from south of there had heavy body rot.

 

[Grizzerbear]

I work for the street department of my local town and we use salt. It sucks really. Its only good to around 17 or 18 degrees then it wont melt the ice and snow so we have to add chemical to it. Thats not too often down here tho. As far as concrete vs black top......its cheaper. There is a lot more labor involved with concrete because of forms and finish work whereas with asphalt pretty much two guys on a paver and a couple guys ahead of them shoveling some in low spots or what have you before paver goes over it. Blacktop takes the abuse of salt pretty well too. I hate the salt tho because all winter long it is impregnated in the shop parking area. It really eats a vehicle inside out and there is no way to stay ahead of it short of washing your rig every day.

 

[SidecarFlip]

Not to mention it's hard on automobile electrical systems. Out here in east nowhere, it's more about mud than anything else. Pavement ends 2 miles from the farm. Color choice of vehicles out here is tan or silver...lol

 

[JimBear]

I have hauled a lot of road salt from mines in Kansas, at one mine I would occasionally pickup loads of road salt coated/drowned in beet juice. It seemed to go more to landscaping companies that were doing sidewalks & parking lots. All I can say about it is that straight up salt comes out of the trailer much better & is cleaner to haul. That beet juice covered stuff almost had to be shoveled out & usually required a washout to get that syrup coating off the slopes of my trailer. I can’t remember the trade name off the top of my head.

 

[SpaceBus]

This winter I've been working for a local snow removal company and we use tons of salt every storm. The big trucks try to get the roads salted before snow starts to accumulate, but often times they are spreading as they plow to break up the ice that usually forms as they plow. My job is to manage the shovel crew and doing the "finish work" which involves lots of shoveling and salt on walkways, decking, etc for local businesses. Pretty much all of the exposed concrete is pitted, cracked, and busted. Most parking lots are gravel or black top. Not much concrete around.

 

[semipro]

Most probably don't realize the extent of water contamination that has resulted from the use of salt on roads and elsewhere. It has polluted many drinking water supplies including wells and surface reservoirs. in Northern VA, a primary reservoir, the Occoquan, is reaching levels of sodium that may soon require removal treatment (a very expensive option) or going to an alternative water source.

Although state departments of transportation are frequently blamed some interesting research from NH has shown that private sources such as parking lots and driveways actually contribute more than their fair share when compared to public roads. Many private operators over apply either though bad practices or the direction of property owners that insist on seeing salt crystals on the ground even when no snow or ice may be present or forecast. They see it as liability aversion.

 

[semipro]

I work for the street department of my local town and we use salt. It sucks really. Its only good to around 17 or 18 degrees then it wont melt the ice and snow so we have to add chemical to it. Thats not too often down here tho. As far as concrete vs black top......its cheaper. There is a lot more labor involved with concrete because of forms and finish work whereas with asphalt pretty much two guys on a paver and a couple guys ahead of them shoveling some in low spots or what have you before paver goes over it. Blacktop takes the abuse of salt pretty well too. I hate the salt tho because all winter long it is impregnated in the shop parking area. It really eats a vehicle inside out and there is no way to stay ahead of it short of washing your rig every day.

It is messy when applied to salt as a wetting agent or alone.
Organics like beet juice are also bad for the surface waters they end up in. Once large slugs of organics like beet juice hit a waterway its biological degradation consumes most of the dissolved oxygen in the water and can result in fish kills.

 

[SidecarFlip]

Most probably don't realize the extent of water contamination that has resulted from the use of salt on roads and elsewhere. It has polluted many drinking water supplies including wells and surface reservoirs. in Northern VA, a primary reservoir, the Occoquan, is reaching levels of sodium that may soon require removal treatment (a very expensive option) or going to an alternative water source.

Although state departments of transportation are frequently blamed some interesting research from NH has shown that private sources such as parking lots and driveways actually contribute more than their fair share when compared to public roads. Many private operators over apply either though bad practices or the direction of property owners that insist on seeing salt crystals on the ground even when no snow or ice may be present or forecast. They see it as liability aversion.

I can relate to that. Salt application washes down storm sewers and gets in the lakes and streams. It's the put it on and it washes away and sight unseen syndrome. I'm very glad I live far removed from any salt or de icer application on an unpaved road miles from pavement and sat application.

Never knew beet juice was used. I always thought it was for ag tractor tire ballast.

 

[ben94122]

Out here in the Sierras we use sand, which works great. Never understood why it wasn't used in the rest of the country. Maybe there are just too many roads to make sanding practical. I use sand on my front walkway, too.

 

[SidecarFlip]

Hot sand on ice is great. Hot sand melts into the ice and creates a sandpaper like surface. Used in Northern Michigan but not down here because they say the sand clogs storm sewers. Sounds lame to me but what do I know anyway.

 

[Seasoned Oak]

Out here in the Sierras we use sand, which works great. Never understood why it wasn't used in the rest of the country. Maybe there are just too many roads to make sanding practical. I use sand on my front walkway, too.

Its about as eco friendly as you can get. I can imagine what salt does to a clean trout stream.

 

[Qvist]

Iv'e heard of cinders used before? Certantly not as eco friendly as sand I would assume.

 

[ABMax24]

Lately our road maintenance crews have been using less and less salt on the roads. More so due to cost and budget cutbacks that environmental reasons, but to be honest I like it better. I on a daily basis cross the boundary between 2 municipalities that do maintenance at different intervals, that leads to some roads being salted with the next section not. The section that wasn't salted gets extremely slippery with the salt tracked onto it from the salted areas. It's also been too cold lately for salt to be effective, so some sand is used instead. But a lot of places the maintenance crews plow the road and that's it, only sanding critical intersections.

We have all gotten used to the change in road care, most of us now run winter tires many of them being studded and just adapt to the conditions. It's also not uncommon to see semi's running around through town with tires chains on to get enough traction.

Some cities have tries calcium chloride with extreme push back from residents due to increased corrosion on vehicles, and others have used beet juice with moderately successful results. Ultimately the best seems to be to just keep the snow off the roads by plowing, to apply sand as needed and run winter tires, leaving salt only for freezing rain events.

 

[WinterinWI]

Many private operators over apply either though bad practices or the direction of property owners that insist on seeing salt crystals on the ground even when no snow or ice may be present or forecast. They see it as liability aversion.

There is certainly truth to that. Many business owners would rather dump a bunch of extra salt down than risk an expensive workers comp claim or lawsuit.

There are some snow/temperature conditions that I just shake my head when I see salt being put down, particularly when it's still snowing. Some types of snow are pretty easy to walk on without being slippery, and turning it into slush can make it worse.

 

[SidecarFlip]

CACL and brine are death on vehicle electrical systems and suspension parts too.

 

[Starbrightsteve]

Most probably don't realize the extent of water contamination that has resulted from the use of salt on roads and elsewhere. It has polluted many drinking water supplies including wells and surface reservoirs. in Northern VA, a primary reservoir, the Occoquan, is reaching levels of sodium that may soon require removal treatment (a very expensive option) or going to an alternative water source.

Although state departments of transportation are frequently blamed some interesting research from NH has shown that private sources such as parking lots and driveways actually contribute more than their fair share when compared to public roads. Many private operators over apply either though bad practices or the direction of property owners that insist on seeing salt crystals on the ground even when no snow or ice may be present or forecast. They see it as liability aversion.

Here in North central PA, the gas well fracking industry is trying to get state politicians to OK the use of the fluid that comes back up from wells to melt snow and ice . This stuff is toxic waste and all of it is radioactive. They want to use it on paved roads in winter and unpaved ones in summer( for dust controll). There are large ponds of it around this area just waiting for someone to figure a way to get rid of it. It was rejected at local wastewater treatment plants partly because of the radioactivity.

 

[SpaceBus]

Most probably don't realize the extent of water contamination that has resulted from the use of salt on roads and elsewhere. It has polluted many drinking water supplies including wells and surface reservoirs. in Northern VA, a primary reservoir, the Occoquan, is reaching levels of sodium that may soon require removal treatment (a very expensive option) or going to an alternative water source.

Although state departments of transportation are frequently blamed some interesting research from NH has shown that private sources such as parking lots and driveways actually contribute more than their fair share when compared to public roads. Many private operators over apply either though bad practices or the direction of property owners that insist on seeing salt crystals on the ground even when no snow or ice may be present or forecast. They see it as liability aversion.

I didn't know the beet juice was just as bad... I feel terrible about my job now... Pretty much every storm we put loads of salt on sidewalks and parking lots and the other trucks spread it on roads. We use sand on gravel lots, but still salt on their decks, walkways, etc. Perhaps the price of salt will increase to the point it's more economically friendly to exclusively use sand rather than salt.

 

[ABMax24]

Here in North central PA, the gas well fracking industry is trying to get state politicians to OK the use of the fluid that comes back up from wells to melt snow and ice . This stuff is toxic waste and all of it is radioactive. They want to use it on paved roads in winter and unpaved ones in summer( for dust controll). There are large ponds of it around this area just waiting for someone to figure a way to get rid of it. It was rejected at local wastewater treatment plants partly because of the radioactivity.

I'm assuming you are referring to produced water. I wonder what the oil companies did with it prior to the fracking of wells? Every oil or gas well ever drilled produces some water that is separated off and needs to be disposed of. Basically it is salt water with traces of hydrocarbons left behind, but I've never heard of highly radioactive produced water but I'm sure trace amounts of radioactivity are possible.

That being said here in Alberta it is forbidden for produced water to be disposed of above ground or into any waterbody. Typically it is re injected deep into the ground either into a disposal well, or used for enhanced recovery techniques by disposing into a well to help push the remaining hydrocarbons in a production zone to another well for extraction. But recently it is being recycled and used for fracks on new wells which also reduces the consumption of fresh water from above ground water bodies.