Anyone Have a Survival Hybrid from Woodstock Soapstone?

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Highbeam

Minister of Fire
Dec 28, 2006
17,195
Mt. Rainier Foothills, WA
As far as OP goes, if you plan to burn 24/7 in the space I would go with a good cat stove. Once the space is up to temp the cat stove will have more flexibility on output. If you will be using it to heat a cold space frequently then a tube stove would be better. Tube stoves have a good high output and will handle being pushed hard better long term.
I have a shop heated with a noncat and a house heated with a cat stove for just this reason. The noncat is always at max output and the cat is almost always at low output. Right tools for the job.

Myself, my insurance company, and my county permit interpreted the fire code a bit differently than bholler.
 

bholler

Chimney sweep
Staff member
Jan 14, 2014
21,406
central pa
I have a shop heated with a noncat and a house heated with a cat stove for just this reason. The noncat is always at max output and the cat is almost always at low output. Right tools for the job.

Myself, my insurance company, and my county permit interpreted the fire code a bit differently than bholler.
There is no interpretation involved. Ignoring code is not interpreting it differently.
 
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valuman

Burning Hunk
Mar 11, 2014
161
Vermont
Simply calling the structure something else doesn't mean your insurance company will honor a claim. And you still can't have gasoline or other flamable vapors in the space.

I am not saying you can't do it. Many people including myself do. But it is against code and you need to understand the repercussions of ignoring that.
My shop will be separated from the garage by a wall with a door. Separate room, not a garage, no gasoline.
 

valuman

Burning Hunk
Mar 11, 2014
161
Vermont
As far as OP goes, if you plan to burn 24/7 in the space I would go with a good cat stove. Once the space is up to temp the cat stove will have more flexibility on output. If you will be using it to heat a cold space frequently then a tube stove would be better. Tube stoves have a good high output and will handle being pushed hard better long term.
The building will have a radiant floor and will need to be kept above freezing since there will be a half bath adjacent to the shop as well. I do not like burning gas and expect that for most of the winter, unless we're away, the stove will be running.

So, back to one of my earlier questions. Who makes a good plate steel stove with a decent sized firebox that's either catalytic or hybrid? The particulate emission level matters to me as well.
 

bholler

Chimney sweep
Staff member
Jan 14, 2014
21,406
central pa
My shop will be separated from the garage by a wall with a door. Separate room, not a garage, no gasoline.
In that case it would be fine. What kind of shop?
 

bholler

Chimney sweep
Staff member
Jan 14, 2014
21,406
central pa
The building will have a radiant floor and will need to be kept above freezing since there will be a half bath adjacent to the shop as well. I do not like burning gas and expect that for most of the winter, unless we're away, the stove will be running.

So, back to one of my earlier questions. Who makes a good plate steel stove with a decent sized firebox that's either catalytic or hybrid? The particulate emission level matters to me as well.
Blaze king and regency both have units out that have been proven to work well. Emissions of non cats are very close to cat stoves as well
 
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Highbeam

Minister of Fire
Dec 28, 2006
17,195
Mt. Rainier Foothills, WA
Blaze king and regency both have units out that have been proven to work well. Emissions of non cats are very close to cat stoves as well
my noncat is actually much cleaner than my cat stove. Per the ratings and as shown by the increased flue accumulation with the cat stove.
 

BKVP

Minister of Fire
One important point of clarification.

EPA's site list HHV Efficiency calculations which come from B415.1-10. So it no accurate to say the posted value is their highest efficiency and on low. It, just as is the case for emissions, is a weighted average.

Further, make no assumptions on "cat" and "non cat" efficiency values at generalized burn rates.

Each of us needs to read individual test reports. I know of a cat model that most definitely is not most efficient on low.

I bring this to everyone's attention as we now have M28R, ASTM and ATM (approved by EPA Alternative Test Method) stoves on the list.

You can no longer compare performance attributes between stoves (which was risky at best in the past) due to these variations.

As a result of being quarantined at home, please feel free to harass me!
 
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bholler

Chimney sweep
Staff member
Jan 14, 2014
21,406
central pa
One important point of clarification.

EPA's site list HHV Efficiency calculations which come from B415.1-10. So it no accurate to say the posted value is their highest efficiency and on low. It, just as is the case for emissions, is a weighted average.

Further, make no assumptions on "cat" and "non cat" efficiency values at generalized burn rates.

Each of us needs to read individual test reports. I know of a cat model that most definitely is not most efficient on low.

I bring this to everyone's attention as we now have M28R, ASTM and ATM (approved by EPA Alternative Test Method) stoves on the list.

You can no longer compare performance attributes between stoves (which was risky at best in the past) due to these variations.

As a result of being quarantined at home, please feel free to harass me!
All true but really at the current levels the differences in efficiency and emissions between stoves is so minimal it really doesn't matter
 
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Highbeam

Minister of Fire
Dec 28, 2006
17,195
Mt. Rainier Foothills, WA
All true but really at the current levels the differences in efficiency and emissions between stoves is so minimal it really doesn't matter
Your assertion actually supports bkvp’s point that the epa published efficiency numbers are not useful to compare stoves. Most of us that have actually used both cat and noncats for full time heating have observed very significant fuel savings with a cat stove. Far more than the 5-10% that you would expect from those Published efficiency numbers.
 

Woody Stover

Minister of Fire
Dec 25, 2010
12,157
Southern IN
Most of us that have actually used both cat and noncats for full time heating have observed very significant fuel savings with a cat stove. Far more than the 5-10% that you would expect from those Published efficiency numbers.
Yeah, but when you switched to the cat, wasn't that the same time that you tightened up your house so that it wasn't wasting massive BTUs and exacerbating global heating? ==c
 

Highbeam

Minister of Fire
Dec 28, 2006
17,195
Mt. Rainier Foothills, WA
Yeah, but when you switched to the cat, wasn't that the same time that you tightened up your house so that it wasn't wasting massive BTUs and exacerbating global heating? ==c
No. In fact, still have a pretty low efficiency 1963 built house with 2x4 walls, r13 or r5 batts in the walls. I did some improvements to windows and a bit of insulation before and during the heritage years but my biggest efficiency improvement was a better wood stove! Then I got into barn building and more aesthetic projects.
 
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bholler

Chimney sweep
Staff member
Jan 14, 2014
21,406
central pa
Your assertion actually supports bkvp’s point that the epa published efficiency numbers are not useful to compare stoves. Most of us that have actually used both cat and noncats for full time heating have observed very significant fuel savings with a cat stove. Far more than the 5-10% that you would expect from those Published efficiency numbers.
Your assertion that most see large fuel savings when switching to cats is only partially relevant. To start many switching are going from an old stove to a modern cat. So yes you will save. Many also complain about their house overheating all the time with their non cat that means either not knowing how to run it properly or it isn't sized properly. So when you go to a cat with a lower turn down you save wood because you aren't wasting BTUs overheating the house. That doesn't mean a thing about efficiency.

For the record I have seen zero wood savings and more oil burnt after switching to a cat from a similar size similar quality noncat.
 

Highbeam

Minister of Fire
Dec 28, 2006
17,195
Mt. Rainier Foothills, WA
Your assertion that most see large fuel savings when switching to cats is only partially relevant. To start many switching are going from an old stove to a modern cat. So yes you will save. Many also complain about their house overheating all the time with their non cat that means either not knowing how to run it properly or it isn't sized properly. So when you go to a cat with a lower turn down you save wood because you aren't wasting BTUs overheating the house. That doesn't mean a thing about efficiency.

For the record I have seen zero wood savings and more oil burnt after switching to a cat from a similar size similar quality noncat.
My assertion is fully relevant. Perhaps look up the word relevant. Is it necessary to speak to other people in such a manner?

As I said, it’s not just the 5-10% efficiency rating advantage that causes the majority of folks that upgrade to a cat stove from ANY noncat to see significant wood savings. Far more than the 5-10% rating advantage would apply.

It’s those rare folks that run their stoves at high output all the time that don’t seem to see as much decrease in fuel consumption. Statistically, those folks are very rare. I still have a modern noncat that is the right tool for that job in my shop.

It is a shame you couldn’t figure out how to heat efficiently with a cat stove. Since the cat stove is more efficient and you managed to actually get less efficiency from it we can only site user error. How else did you manage to actually use more wood? I remember that you were doing short loads, using tiny wood, and trying to run it like a noncat but you were really cagey about the details.

Oh well, I’ve been on this site a long time and read many many happy reports of people that made the upgrade. The cat stoves are a bit more complicated to operate.
 
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bholler

Chimney sweep
Staff member
Jan 14, 2014
21,406
central pa
My assertion is fully relevant. Perhaps look up the word relevant. Is it necessary to speak to other people in such a manner?

As I said, it’s not just the 5-10% efficiency rating advantage that causes the majority of folks that upgrade to a cat stove from ANY noncat to see significant wood savings. Far more than the 5-10% rating advantage would apply.

It’s those rare folks that run their stoves at high output all the time that don’t seem to see as much decrease in fuel consumption. Statistically, those folks are very rare. I still have a modern noncat that is the right tool for that job in my shop.

It is a shame you couldn’t figure out how to heat efficiently with a cat stove. Since the cat stove is more efficient and you managed to actually get less efficiency from it we can only site user error. How else did you manage to actually use more wood? I remember that you were doing short loads, using tiny wood, and trying to run it like a noncat but you were really cagey about the details.

Oh well, I’ve been on this site a long time and read many many happy reports of people that made the upgrade. The cat stoves are a bit more complicated to operate.
I am not unhappy with the cat stove I just haven't drunk the bk cool aid. They are great stoves for the right situation. But they are not right for every situation. The bk guys just can't understand why I havnt instantly fallen in love with the stove. I have been told it is my wood despite moisture readings. I have been told it is my operation despite doing exactly what I was told by many here. I have been told the princess is undersized dispite the fact that an equally sized non cat did fine. So you guys suggest abandoning my new 6" chimney and installing an 8" and a king. No thanks. I am far from the only one who feels this way
 

begreen

Mooderator
Staff member
Nov 18, 2005
82,477
South Puget Sound, WA
I am not unhappy with the cat stove I just haven't drunk the bk cool aid. They are great stoves for the right situation. But they are not right for every situation. The bk guys just can't understand why I havnt instantly fallen in love with the stove. I have been told it is my wood despite moisture readings. I have been told it is my operation despite doing exactly what I was told by many here. I have been told the princess is undersized dispite the fact that an equally sized non cat did fine. So you guys suggest abandoning my new 6" chimney and installing an 8" and a king. No thanks. I am far from the only one who feels this way
And the myth that non-cats only run all out at high output is simply that, a myth. We're in shoulder season burning now and are having very nice daily 4-5 split fires. Stove cruising in the 400-500º range.
 

bholler

Chimney sweep
Staff member
Jan 14, 2014
21,406
central pa
I have a garage door on my shop, but it is not a garage and I have a wood stove in there.
Some insurance companies would still classify that as a garage. And I am sure some inspectors would as well. There are also quite a few localities that don't allow them in wood shops either but that isn't in any of the nationally adopted codes. But personally I see more risk in a wood shop than in a garage.
 

begreen

Mooderator
Staff member
Nov 18, 2005
82,477
South Puget Sound, WA
Some insurance companies would still classify that as a garage. And I am sure some inspectors would as well. There are also quite a few localities that don't allow them in wood shops either but that isn't in any of the nationally adopted codes. But personally I see more risk in a wood shop than in a garage.
Locally we have a restaurant that has two large roll up garage doors. They open them in the summer. Does this make it a garage?
 

woodnomore

Member
Oct 3, 2019
218
Central MN
Some insurance companies would still classify that as a garage. And I am sure some inspectors would as well. There are also quite a few localities that don't allow them in wood shops either but that isn't in any of the nationally adopted codes. But personally I see more risk in a wood shop than in a garage.
It is not a wood shop it is a shop where I work on my old boats. My insurance company has never said a thing to me about it.
 

bholler

Chimney sweep
Staff member
Jan 14, 2014
21,406
central pa
Locally we have a restaurant that has two large roll up garage doors. They open them in the summer. Does this make it a garage?
I clearly don't think so but it's not up to me at all. Although I doubt that restaurant has easy access for a vehicle to drive through those doors.
 

bholler

Chimney sweep
Staff member
Jan 14, 2014
21,406
central pa
It is not a wood shop it is a shop where I work on my old boats. My insurance company has never said a thing to me about it.
Are those old boats powered by motors? Do you use any flammable products in finishing them? Your insurance company probably won't but they also may not pay a claim if it comes to that.
 

woodnomore

Member
Oct 3, 2019
218
Central MN
Are those old boats powered by motors? Do you use any flammable products in finishing them? Your insurance company probably won't but they also may not pay a claim if it comes to that.
The boats are insured by a different company. I have had that wood stove in my shop for 20 years and no fires or explosions. Where do you come up with the insurance company probably won't pay a claim? I have had inspectors from the insurance company at my place and it was not an issue, I suppose you feel insurance inspectors are not trained to spot chimneys on outbuildings?
 

bholler

Chimney sweep
Staff member
Jan 14, 2014
21,406
central pa
The boats are insured by a different company. I have had that wood stove in my shop for 20 years and no fires or explosions. Where do you come up with the insurance company probably won't pay a claim? I have had inspectors from the insurance company at my place and it was not an issue, I suppose you feel insurance inspectors are not trained to spot chimneys on outbuildings?
I come up with that from experience being involved as an expert in quite a few insurance claims. I feel insurance inspectors are very different from adjusters and experts called in after an incident. I am just relaying info I know to be true from my work in the field. And by reading the code books. I am not the one that makes the rules.
 
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