Geospring HPWH being discontinued
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maple1
Minister of Fire
Highbeam
Minister of Fire
Maybe they'll finally allow us to have split system heat pump boilers. I always saw the HPWH as a temporary technology, stealing room heat and putting that noise in the living space with low dependability and efficiency. Not unlike CFLs.
maple1
Minister of Fire
I can still see merit in using a HPWH - especially if it will also offset some dehumidification & a/c costs.
Then the one comment about putting it in the same space as a freezer also seems like a good idea.
But basing a purchase of a HPWH on just recouping up front costs by DHW energy savings over time doesn't work out for me. I only spend $20-25/mo heating DHW with a conventional cheap resistance heater. For 6 months of the year. (Wood heats it the rest of the year). In an area with little to no purchase incentives. So the energy savings just don't compute with the extra up-front costs, for us.
I have an electric boiler for backup heat. But in no way would want to use it for primary heat - I think it would run us $20/day. So I'm always trying to keep up with what else is out there, and what might be coming, for the future. Oil is a lot cheaper now than 4 years ago when I yanked all our oil stuff out, so it's sort of in the picture again. But I am still waiting to hear & see more about the HPWH 'boilers' that I heard were on the horizon, somewhere, a couple years ago, that use CO2 (I think) for refrigerant, and can put out truly hot water. Maybe if I hold out loooonnnggg enough.....
Then the one comment about putting it in the same space as a freezer also seems like a good idea.
But basing a purchase of a HPWH on just recouping up front costs by DHW energy savings over time doesn't work out for me. I only spend $20-25/mo heating DHW with a conventional cheap resistance heater. For 6 months of the year. (Wood heats it the rest of the year). In an area with little to no purchase incentives. So the energy savings just don't compute with the extra up-front costs, for us.
I have an electric boiler for backup heat. But in no way would want to use it for primary heat - I think it would run us $20/day. So I'm always trying to keep up with what else is out there, and what might be coming, for the future. Oil is a lot cheaper now than 4 years ago when I yanked all our oil stuff out, so it's sort of in the picture again. But I am still waiting to hear & see more about the HPWH 'boilers' that I heard were on the horizon, somewhere, a couple years ago, that use CO2 (I think) for refrigerant, and can put out truly hot water. Maybe if I hold out loooonnnggg enough.....
cableman
Minister of Fire
Yeah its a shame, hopefully thell have parts for us who need them. Love mine so far but its only a few months old.
Ill keep my eye out for them hpwh boilers, id love to pull the oil boiler for that providing it works as well.
Ill keep my eye out for them hpwh boilers, id love to pull the oil boiler for that providing it works as well.
Yeah, it is too bad. I was going to install one in my next home (undergoing remodeling now). I have a Geyser now, and that is working well, but an all-in-one system had appeal, and I had heard good things about the Geospring. Guess I'll go with another Geyser - I have heard mixed reports on some of the other units out there that are reasonably priced.
velvetfoot
Minister of Fire
I can see the hp water heaters having an advantage when operating off a generator during a power outage. I think the Geospring can lock out the resistance rods, but I don't think there's a super easy way to do that on my Nyletherm, unless I mess around with one of the thermostats (since it works on 240 v., off of one of the tank's thermostats). My Nyletherm runs for about an hour after I take my morning shower, at about 700 watts or so.
The two stage heating process also isn't as efficient as it could be, especially since the compact compressor on top of a HPWH no doubt compromises efficiency for size. Pairing split systems to water heating seems pretty compelling.
On the other hand, in warm climates, using a HPWH to simultaneously cool your living space and heat your water has some appeal.
They have these out now. Wicked expensive.
I herd from the supply house that GE is dropping all water heaters, not just hpwh. Parts are already hard to come by.
Seasoned Oak
Minister of Fire
My electric bill is down $52 over the same month last year and last month it was down $32 even with a higher average temp that necessitated extensive use of AC in July. The savings are real and substantial. Dehumidifier dont run nearly as much contributing to the electric savings.
Seasoned Oak
Minister of Fire
Rheem sells an equivalent model for about the same price with a 12 YR warranty, but im not sure of the specs,they list a $215 annual energy cost but a 2.45 Energy factor while the GE has an energy factor of 3.25 and list an annual operating cost of $220 in some ads and $163 in others,both at 12c a KWH ,sounds illogical. Sears has one too but they want $499 for their ridiculous overpriced protection agreement as with all their appliances but it does come with a 10 YR parts warranty standard. (sounds like GE makes it) So it looks like one can still get these after GE bails.
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You don't have to buy the protection agreement.
I hated being forced to push those protection agreements when I worked at Sears. At the time, it was a relatively new strategy, and we were required to push them hard. They wanted something like 10% of sales where a PA was offered to achieve the upsell. I think we averaged about 5%. The other 95% of the customers were just annoyed by the hardball pitch. I suspect it was a net negative strategy for Sears. I can't tell you how many times I delivered the canned sales lines we were ordered to use, and was met with, "It sounds like you're telling me you're knowingly selling a defective product. Maybe I should check out Home Depot instead." Depending on the product, the protection agreement price was anywhere from 10-50% of the product price.
The economics are not in your favor (otherwise they wouldn't sell them). The manufacturer warranty (speaking only for the HPWH) covers year one, parts and labor. Defects tend to show up earlier in a product life than later, so many are caught by the warranty. The 10 year warranty is parts only. The protection agreement covers through year 3, and includes parts and labor. However they want over 1/3 the price of the water heater to cover 1/4 of its rated life, and odds are probably less than 5% it will fail in that time.
If it does fail, you're facing a minimum of $100 to get a repairman on site, but only the worst failures are very likely to exceed $500. Moral of the story: keep the money in your bank account as part of your emergency fund, which applies to any appliance failure, not just your water heater.
I hated being forced to push those protection agreements when I worked at Sears. At the time, it was a relatively new strategy, and we were required to push them hard. They wanted something like 10% of sales where a PA was offered to achieve the upsell. I think we averaged about 5%. The other 95% of the customers were just annoyed by the hardball pitch. I suspect it was a net negative strategy for Sears. I can't tell you how many times I delivered the canned sales lines we were ordered to use, and was met with, "It sounds like you're telling me you're knowingly selling a defective product. Maybe I should check out Home Depot instead." Depending on the product, the protection agreement price was anywhere from 10-50% of the product price.
The economics are not in your favor (otherwise they wouldn't sell them). The manufacturer warranty (speaking only for the HPWH) covers year one, parts and labor. Defects tend to show up earlier in a product life than later, so many are caught by the warranty. The 10 year warranty is parts only. The protection agreement covers through year 3, and includes parts and labor. However they want over 1/3 the price of the water heater to cover 1/4 of its rated life, and odds are probably less than 5% it will fail in that time.
If it does fail, you're facing a minimum of $100 to get a repairman on site, but only the worst failures are very likely to exceed $500. Moral of the story: keep the money in your bank account as part of your emergency fund, which applies to any appliance failure, not just your water heater.
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Seasoned Oak
Minister of Fire
Sears wanted Almost $800 (absolutely ridiculous)for a PA on a refrigerator that cost $2200. Instead i bought the same refrigerator at Home Depot for the same price and paid $99 for a longer extended warranty than the one sears offered ,which i used several times as my LG refrigerator has been problematic right from the start. Over $1000 in repairs in the first 15 months. I always get extended warranties on refrigerators with icemakers,it pays.
I always check repair and complaint records on new appliances before buying. Bought a new GE refrig (w/icemaker), Electrolux Oven 6 yrs ago and Frigidaire (Electrolux) Washer and Dryer 7 years ago. No service on any of them so far.
cableman
Minister of Fire
Hope my geosprings lasts and gives me no problems.
I need a fridge, this house has a side by side smack against the left side wall so i can barely open the freezer door!
I hate french door bottom freezers, might have to just go back to the top freezer models.
Seems nothing lasts anymore, its a shame
I need a fridge, this house has a side by side smack against the left side wall so i can barely open the freezer door!
I hate french door bottom freezers, might have to just go back to the top freezer models.
Seems nothing lasts anymore, its a shame
CaptSpiff
Minister of Fire
Read this posting after a long time away, so I may be covering old news, but weren't new US Gov't Efficiency Standards hitting this year that made "simple resistive element" tank water heaters above 50 gallons prohibited?
I recall having a discussion about the proposed standards having 2 big downsides (besides cost):
1. the much thicker insulation made the smaller units much fatter and may prevent replacements from fitting in the same location.
2. any unit bigger than 50 gallons would have to be a HWHP design.
Did those standards never become final?
Can't see how GE could be getting out if they were in place.
I recall having a discussion about the proposed standards having 2 big downsides (besides cost):
1. the much thicker insulation made the smaller units much fatter and may prevent replacements from fitting in the same location.
2. any unit bigger than 50 gallons would have to be a HWHP design.
Did those standards never become final?
Can't see how GE could be getting out if they were in place.
I think the standards are still being rolled out. GE is getting out of lots of consumer goods, including appliances, that I guess don't have the margins they are used to compared to jet engines and steam turbines.
The new standard mainly affects tanks over 55 gallons. Most residential water heaters are 55 gallons or less, so those with large houses are the most likely to be affected.
Rheem says the implementation was last year. They also give a table of the new required energy factors:
http://www.rheem.com/products/water_heating/NAECA/
An energy factor over 0.98 is almost impossible to achieve with resistance heat from a practical standpoint. Energy factors over 1 effectively mean you need a heat pump.
Rheem says the implementation was last year. They also give a table of the new required energy factors:
http://www.rheem.com/products/water_heating/NAECA/
An energy factor over 0.98 is almost impossible to achieve with resistance heat from a practical standpoint. Energy factors over 1 effectively mean you need a heat pump.
Seasoned Oak
Minister of Fire
ID buy a Heat pump dryer in a minute if they had the kind of rebates they have for the water heater. But $1000 to $1500 for the dryer ,just dont think you would ever get the difference back. Biggest reason to buy one at this time is ,if you cant vent the traditional dryer to the outdoors.
tom in maine
Minister of Fire
We are going to be selling HP boilers starting in Dec.
It is a "soft" start, with only 24 units available. More will be in 2017.
They are being made to our specs, given the experiences we have dealt with trying to get a decent unit
that was affordable.
Will also be offering fan convectors.
These are units that output heated antifreeze with no refrigerant plumbing needed.
They operate to -11F and have a heat output rating of 31k btus. They are reversible for cooling as are the convectors.
The initial price on the heat pumps will be about $3400.
Will post more soon.
It is a "soft" start, with only 24 units available. More will be in 2017.
They are being made to our specs, given the experiences we have dealt with trying to get a decent unit
that was affordable.
Will also be offering fan convectors.
These are units that output heated antifreeze with no refrigerant plumbing needed.
They operate to -11F and have a heat output rating of 31k btus. They are reversible for cooling as are the convectors.
The initial price on the heat pumps will be about $3400.
Will post more soon.
Seasoned Oak
Minister of Fire
My geospring continues to pump out savings ,Form 1300KWH last year 2015 in Oct to 991 this year Oct. 2016 . So almost $40 Looks like Ill avg about $400+ per yr in savings .Even with no rebates that woulds only take 2.5 Yrs to pay off the entire heater. Since i zeroed out the heater cost up front its all money in the bank. Probably some pecentage of the savings come from the Dehumidifier rarely coming on anymore.
Mine too. Before installing the Geospring I was using about 12000 kwh/year, I had a goal of 10,000 through switching to LED bulbs and other efficiency improvements, but two years into having the Geospring, I'm down to less than 8500 kwh/year. It's already more than paid the cost difference, so as long as it stays working, I'm happy.
TE
Clarkbug
Minister of Fire
Been a while since I have had a chance to post anything (or even read anything) and one of the first things I see is this post as I start looking into finally replacing my heater. I guess Ill have to investigate the Rheem units or see if National Grid will incentivize the Nyletherm Glad I saw this news. I know the Geospring had some issues, and knowing that they wont be available as a wholesale replacement unit doesnt make me thrilled.
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