new here with questions about Osburn 3300 vs 3500 and Chinook 30.2

[Bethany Waterfall]

Hi Everyone. I am brand new to this forum, but have been scouring through the threads for the past couple of weeks and SO appreciating all the advice & and knowledge on this site. So first, a big thank you to this community and to the moderators. Apologies for this long first post, but I could really use some help and expert opinions. So grateful to everyone for your help and woodstove wisdom!

And now... I am a 50 yr old woman who now lives alone at a place called The Waterfall House, a 5000 sf victorian roadside inn (plus a separate barn studio) built in the 1880s in the northwestern foothills of the Catskill mountains of New York. I have lived here part time for the past 20 years, heating mostly with wood and 3 supplemental Rinnai LP heaters. I have been through different Jotuls and Vermont Castings, and currently have 3 non-cat Woodstoves: one Lennox Canyon C310 and two Lennox Country S160.

I moved here full time in Nov 2019 and have found that I go through 10+ full cords of wood per year with my current set up.

There are two sides to the house... the "Guest Quarters" (3200 sf) and the "Owners quarters" (1800 sf). I don't occupy the guest quarters all year long. I usually shut down and drain the guest quarters for the winter, unless I have guests or a retreat/ event (I do a lot of native/non-native alliance work and environmental movement gatherings.) So, in the guest quarters I want to keep the stoves non-cat, because I need lots of heat fast to heat the huge rooms on short notice, and I have lots of people who try to be helpful adding wood to the fire, but inevitably do something wrong. So, simple is better when there are helpful guests around.

Unfortunately the clay liner in chimney in the upstairs 1500 sf Great Hall is cracked so, I have to reline the 12" chimney. I have 10 year old Lennox Canyon 310 with an 8" flue up there now, but it seems I can fit two 6" stainless flues in the chimney, so I thought I would replace the stove with an Osburn 3300 or 3500 and then add another woodstove in the 1000 sf Dance Hall directly below the great hall (which is currently heated with a Rinnai heater on an "as-needed" basis).

The ceiling of the 1500sf great hall is foam insulated, but the walls are just plaster and lathe with a second layer of plaster on the exterior for old school "insulation". When it's freezing out, the Canyon does a pretty good job of keeping the room warm enough (along with the 5 bedrooms around the great hall -- as long as people sleep with their doors open). The Canyon is a beast, but burns a lot of wood -- and man, it's a lot to hump all that wood upstairs.

****so... first question... will the Osburn 3300 output the same kind of BTUs as the Canyon 310? Would the 3500 be better ? Or, am I barking up the wrong stove replacement tree? specs are below, but when I called Osburn, they said there was really no difference between the stoves and they would produce the same amount of heat? Is this true in the real world, as opposed to spec sheet world? Also. I use the eco-fans as I really hate blower noise, but I would be OK to use the blower intermittently on the 3500. I also have ceiling fans everywhere to move heat around.

3300:

Recommended heating area-ft² :	900 - 2,300
Overall firebox volume-ft³ :	3.3
EPA loading volume-ft³ :	2.67
Maximum heat output-dry cordwood : (2)	90,000 BTU/h (26.4 kW)
Overall heat output rate < : (2) (3)	15,841 BTU/h (4.64 kW) to 57,041 BTU/h (16.72 kW)
Average overall efficiency (dry cordwood) 3)	71.1 % (HHV) (4)	76.6 % (LHV) (5)
Optimum overall efficiency : (6) (7)	78 %
Optimum heat transfer efficiency : (8)	74 %
Average particulate emissions rate : (9)	0.95 g/h

3500:

Fuel type :	Dry cordwood (16" recommended)
Recommended heating area-ft² :	1,000 - 2,700
Overall firebox volume-ft³ :	3.5
EPA loading volume-ft³ :	2.84
Maximum burn time :	10 h
Maximum heat output-dry cordwood : (2)	110,000 BTU/h (32.2 kW)
Overall heat output rate < : (2) (3)	18,100 BTU/h (5.3 kW) to 49,500 BTU/h (14.5 kW)
Average overall efficiency (dry cordwood) 3)	71 % (HHV) (4)	76 % (LHV) (5)
Optimum overall efficiency : (6) (7)	77 %
Optimum heat transfer efficiency : (8)	76 %
Average particulate emissions rate : (9)	1.32 g/h

****and now for the second question about the 1800 sf owners quarters:

I have a Lennox S160 (from 2003) in the downstairs 450sf living room. The kitchen is in the next room with 3 bedrooms upstairs. The 160 with a 1.6 cu ft firebox is undersized and I wake up pretty freezing every morning. The owner's quarters side of the house is somewhat insulated and has gone through various renovations, but I am finally investing in comprehensive new insulation in the basement and attic crawl space, which will change my life significantly for the better. After looking thought the archives and threads here, I think that the Blaze King Chinook 30.2 would work really well and I will certainly appreciate the burn times! However, I am not prepared this season with super dry wood. I had issues this summer with wood delivery and am worried about moisture content. Will I ruin the catalytic converter if the wood isn't dry enough? Would it be worth it to get a season of kiln dried wood? From what I have described, would the Chinook 30.2 be a good choice?

The third stove (Lennox S160) is in the 875 sf barn studio (insulated but not very tightly with 18 foot ceilings). I'm leaning towards replacing it with the Osburn 3300, although I am considering a catalytic instead. still not sure...

Thank you again, and again, so appreciative of this forum and the collective shared knowledge.
All my best
Bethany

p.s. I am considering installing geo-thermal next year for the barn studio and owners quarters and am in the process of energy audits and getting estimates, but I just want get through this winter without breaking my back and being freezing cold again. Keeping all the fires going can be a full time job all on it's own! Plus, even if I get geo-thermal, I want a wood back up system as I am in a remote area and who knows what the future will hold in terms of heating needs, power outages, etc.

 

[begreen]

Are you sure both fireplaces use a common 12" flue? Normally they would each have their own flue within the common chimney.
I don't think it will be possible to run two 6" round insulated liners up the 12" chimney flue unless they are ovalized. At that point, it may be possible to keep the Canyon which is an excellent big heater.

The S160 Striker is a med-small stove. Moving to a larger 2.5 - 3.0 cu ft stove will make a big difference. In addition to the Chinook, there are many good units to look at, both cat and non-cat in this category and some nice hybrids. Some others to consider are the Woodstock Ideal Steel, the Pacific Energy Summit, Lopi Liberty, Jotul F55, & Regency 3500. Also, Drolet makes very good quality value stoves so take a look at the Drolet HT3000 and Myriad or Legend III while looking. Drolet is a sibling of Osburn. They are both SBI stoves with a lot in common.

A challenge will be finding stoves in stock. Stoves are in limited supply this season.

 

[Bethany Waterfall]

Thanks so much for your reply begreen. Right now, there is only one woodstove using the flue, the Canyon. Downstairs is heated by the LP Rinnai. I was given the chimney dimensions by the chimney sweep, who told me that two 6" liners would fit it there, but a 6" and 8" inch would not. If I can put two liners in there, then I will be able to install the additional woodstove in the downstairs dance hall. I can get a second opinion to see if there is space to keep the Canyon with the 8" pipe, and add a 6" in there for the additional stove, which would be ideal.

I have contacted local dealers and there is a Chinook 30.2 in stock that I can get, as well as an Osburn 3300. I can also get an Osburn 3500 from another local dealer. I've been doing obsessive research and reading here on the formm, and folks seem to LOVE the BK. I've heard negative comments about Lopi. And then, there is also the issue of the tax credit, which makes the Chinook appealing, especially because it's in stock. I haven't researched the other brands. It's a bit overwhelming and I do feel the time pressure of the coming cold and dwindling stove availability! And if I need to replace the Canyon, still not sure if the 3300 or 3500 wold be better or comparable to the Canyon.

this is a lot of house to manage and retrofit on my own. With the insulation, geo-thermal, energy audits, woodstoves, roof repair and getting ready for winter my head is exploding with options and urgent next moves. Trying to keep calm and slowly hurry up

 

[begreen]

I would question the sweep whether the single flue services both fireplaces. That is unusual. Given the condition of the 12" tile liner both new 6" liners must be insulated. This is about safety and code compliance. Insulation puts their outer diameters at about 7.5" each. How do 2 of them fit in a 12" space unless ovalized?
Ask about using DuraVent's Duraliner which is available in ovalized 6" and 8" configs.

 

[Bethany Waterfall]

Ok. Thank you. I will double check with the chimney sweep. He did say that both liners needed to be insulated, so I will also double check the chimney dimension he gave me. He was certain that he couldn't fit a 6" and and 8" in there. But I will get a second opinion and also ask about the ovalized Duraliner.

There are other issues with the Canyon 310 ... the firebricks need to be replaced as do the burn tubes, which have been broken by heavy use of many guests. But that is not a hard fix. I was told that the more efficient burn times of current wood stoves would reduce my wood consumption (and hauling) considerably. So, it seemed like the right thing to do was to replace the stove and hopefully be able to add a wood stove downstairs, which I had never considered because I thought that the chimney would only service one stove.

Thank you again!

 

[Bethany Waterfall]

Another question... is there a reason you would recommend the Woodstock Ideal Steel, the Pacific Energy Summit, Lopi Liberty, Jotul F55, & Regency 3500 over the Chinook 30.2? I will look at the other models you recommended, but I am less familiar with the advantages of the hybrid stoves. I prefer steel to cast iron, as I have. worn through the cast iron stoves quickly with guests and friends coming in and overfiring them. thanks again.

 

[Bethany Waterfall]

I would question the sweep whether the single flue services both fireplaces. That is unusual. Given the condition of the 12" tile liner both new 6" liners must be insulated. This is about safety and code compliance. Insulation puts their outer diameters at about 7.5" each. How do 2 of them fit in a 12" space unless ovalized?
Ask about using DuraVent's Duraliner which is available in ovalized 6" and 8" configs.

Are you sure both fireplaces use a common 12" flue? Normally they would each have their own flue within the common chimney.
I don't think it will be possible to run two 6" round insulated liners up the 12" chimney flue unless they are ovalized. At that point, it may be possible to keep the Canyon which is an excellent big heater.

The S160 Striker is a med-small stove. Moving to a larger 2.5 - 3.0 cu ft stove will make a big difference. In addition to the Chinook, there are many good units to look at, both cat and non-cat in this category and some nice hybrids. Some others to consider are the Woodstock Ideal Steel, the Pacific Energy Summit, Lopi Liberty, Jotul F55, & Regency 3500. Also, Drolet makes very good quality value stoves so take a look at the Drolet HT3000 and Myriad or Legend III while looking. Drolet is a sibling of Osburn. They are both SBI stoves with a lot in common.

A challenge will be finding stoves in stock. Stoves are in limited supply this season.

I just double checked with the chimney sweep, who said that the chimney is 12" wide and 8" deep, so there's no way that an ovalized 6" and 8" will fit in there. I asked about 2 ovalized 6"s and He just texted me that 2 round insulated 6's will fit. I don't understand how or why based on the dimensions you gave me. This is beyond my pay grade!

 

[Rickb]

I have no information or suggestions at this time, however I have to ask if you can post some pics. This house and property sounds amazing!

 

[begreen]

I just double checked with the chimney sweep, who said that the chimney is 12" wide and 8" deep, so there's no way that an ovalized 6" and 8" will fit in there. I asked about 2 ovalized 6"s and He just texted me that 2 round insulated 6's will fit. I don't understand how or why based on the dimensions you gave me. This is beyond my pay grade!

OK, 12 x8 is different from 12" sq. This is a more unlikely size serving two fireplaces. Can you see the chimney top for these fireplaces? If so, are there one or two flues coming out of it?

 

[Dave_in_ABQ]

In case it helps, brochure online says the max output of the Canyon 310 is 84500 BTUs/hr.

 

[rijim]

Regardless of the stove you select, most efficient stoves will require moisture content below 20. As you search for the new stove it may be wise to locate a wood supply. As noted above, stove supply is going to likely be an issue so use up the existing wood with the present stoves. You may want to purchase wood for the 2022-2023 season now to feed whichever stove you select. If your visitors like to “help” a CAT may not be the best option for that side (not complicated but have additional controls to engage the CAT that many won’t understand).

 

[Bethany Waterfall]

I have no information or suggestions at this time, however I have to ask if you can post some pics. This house and property sounds amazing!

Hi Rickb. Here are a couple of photos of parts of the guest quarters of the house and the waterfall behind the house (the house sits at the top of the gorge right above the waterfall). You can see the Canyon at the far end of the great hall. The second photo is the dance hall downstairs (set up for a wedding dinner, but I don't host weddings, etc anymore. that was way too much work). You can see a hole in the ceiling in the middle of the photo, which is where there used to be a stove (before I bought the house). It's covered with a pie tin now.... but it comes up just behind the stove in the great hall upstairs. The last photo is the barn, which is also my studio and where I spend most of my days (I'm a musician). It's a magic place, but it's massive and requires the collective energies of friends and family to keep it all going. These are just two rooms of the house. There are 8 bedrooms in total, with another living room, 2 kitchens, a bar, a game room and other nooks and crannies, most of which is heated with wood. Kind of like House of the Spirits meets Tennessee Williams in Mohawk territory of the western Catskills.

 

[Bethany Waterfall]

Regardless of the stove you select, most efficient stoves will require moisture content below 20. As you search for the new stove it may be wise to locate a wood supply. As noted above, stove supply is going to likely be an issue so use up the existing wood with the present stoves. You may want to purchase wood for the 2022-2023 season now to feed whichever stove you select. If your visitors like to “help” a CAT may not be the best option for that side (not complicated but have additional controls to engage the CAT that many won’t understand).

Yeah. I've been stocking up on wood as I can get it. for 2022/2023 I should have enough dry wood to run a CAT. And yes. I'm going for a non-cat workhorse on the other side of the house so that people can help out without wrecking the stove. Most people don't know the first thing about woodstoves and anything more complicated than "pull out the air flow lever, open the door, and put in wood" is a recipe for disaster. And even that leads to smoke filled rooms of "helpful" confusion. The sad part about a non-cat stove is that I can't take advantage of the tax credit. I can't seem to find a non-cat stove that qualifies. I am not up on the new hybrids and what is required for them. Was gonna block out some time and do a deep dive on a few of the stoves that very kind begreen recommended -- assuming that I can safely fit two 6" liners in the existing chimney and safely run both stoves. There is another full story attic above the second floor great hall, so running insulated pipe 3 stories high all the way up from the ground floor is going to be massively expensive if it's even possible. I never even bothered to explore it as it seemed to be a literal pipe dream. But when the sweep said two liners would fit in the chimney it rocked my world of heating possibilities. So, with all that being said, I am actually looking at purchasing at least THREE new woodstoves (and possibly four). The owners quarters living room (1800sf), the barn studio (875 sf), the dance hall (960sf), the great hall (1000 sf room PLUS 5 bedrooms around it.)

 

[stoveliker]

I have to second the moisture content remark above.

I have a Chinook, and love it. The combination of a thermostat and cat allows to run on a very stable way (even heat output) also at lower heat outputs (shoulder seasons). I heat from the basement, with 1700 SQ ft above the basement.

Regardless, with any of the stoves begreen suggested, you want wood that's below 20 pct moisture content. Most of what you buy is not. Some wood can get there in one season, others not. Buy a moisture meter (and read its manual so you know how to operate it, on wood preferably before the delivery guy unloads it...)

Also check the chimney requirements. Height (15' plus more if elbows exist for the Chinook), insulated.

 

[begreen]

Do you have a good picture of the chimney top in the guest wing?

 

[Bethany Waterfall]

In case it helps, brochure online says the max output of the Canyon 310 is 84500 BTUs/hr.

Thanks for the info! The brochures can sometimes get me even more confused. The max output on the stove says 110K BTU, and in other literature it says 110K BTU. But everywhere I look each of stoves seem to have slightly different BTU ratings, which I really dont' understand.

 

[begreen]

I've read that its max output is 84,500 BTUs. Peak output is kind of meaningless unless you hire a fireman to stoke it like a locomotive. It's mostly bragging rights for marketing. This is from Obidiah's:


Also, note that the Country 310 is suggested to be connected to a 6" flue if the flue height is >14' and straight up.

 

[Bethany Waterfall]

I have to second the moisture content remark above.

I have a Chinook, and love it. The combination of a thermostat and cat allows to run on a very stable way (even heat output) also at lower heat outputs (shoulder seasons). I heat from the basement, with 1700 SQ ft above the basement.

Regardless, with any of the stoves begreen suggested, you want wood that's below 20 pct moisture content. Most of what you buy is not. Some wood can get there in one season, others not. Buy a moisture meter (and read its manual so you know how to operate it, on wood preferably before the delivery guy unloads it...)

Also check the chimney requirements. Height (15' plus more if elbows exist for the Chinook), insulated.

Happy to hear you love your Chinook! If I do get a Chinook, I will probably get a few loads of kiln dried wood for this winter and just keep stocking up. In so many of these posts people are talking about all the wood they cut and split themselves, stacking 3 years of wood to make sure it's nice and dry for optimal burns... It makes my eyes glaze over and I head for the massage chair. My back is already in chronic pain from Lyme and all kind of other out of whack stuff (including hauling 10 cords of wood for 3 stoves up two flights of stairs every winter). So, I get my wood delivered and focus on just keeping warm! Kiln dried wood is expensive, but I can do it for one season. I have enough wood sheds build to store about 10-15 cords of wood around my house. This year wood delivery has been difficult for various complicated and boring reasons, but most years I can easily get wood delivered locally. Although I usually need to let even "seasoned" wood season for another year post-delivery for it to be truly seasoned. Finding help to stack is another issue altogether though.... My thought was to get one Chinook for the owner's quarters and see how I do, and how many cords of wood I will go through with a CAT. Last year I didn't have enough wood and was burning fresh cut ash for a few months of winters end and cold spring. I just dont' want to ruin a CAT with punky or wet wood. The Lennox Canyon 310 and 160 can burn through pretty much anything, which is convenient when necessary. I will also check the chimney requirements. I think I have 15 feet, but need to double check that.

 

[Bethany Waterfall]

I've read that its max output is 84,500 BTUs. Peak output is kind of meaningless unless you hire a fireman to stoke it like a locomotive. It's mostly bragging rights for marketing. This is from Obidiah's:
View attachment 284920

Also, note that the Country 310 is suggested to be connected to a 6" flue if the flue height is >14' and straight up.

OMG! So, I can connect the 310 to a 6" flue ?!?! That may change my life. I will check on the flue height. Can I just say how much I appreciate you and everyone on this forum. Thank you.

 

[begreen]

Yes, this is from the manual:
If the venting system is all vertical and the total vent length above the flue outlet exceeds 14 feet, it is recommended that the 8” to 6” pipe reducer is used (cat. no. 71134) and a 6” venting system be installed.

The Canyon is a very good stove. That's why I have advocated keeping it.

 

[Bethany Waterfall]

Do you have a good picture of the chimney top in the guest wing?

I don't have a photo of the chimney top. I have to run right now, but will try to get some pictures of inside the flue tomorrow and post them. There's a side clean out hatch that I can open and take photos from there.

 

[stoveliker]

Some folks say kiln dried wood is not necessarily dry enough, just that it killed the bugs (and is transportable, legally). I'd still measure the moisture content.

If you can only season wood for one season, I'd try to avoid oak.

I don't think wet wood would kill a cat, it just won't burn well. Moreover, you'll be wasting a lot of the energy of the wood just in boiling water and pumping it through the chimney (leading to more wood usage to reach the same temps in home).

I don't know how modern your current stoves are, but buying an EPA approved stove, it'll be much more finicky with respect to the dryness of the wood. Not a discouragement, but a note to be prepared.

 

[EbS-P]

Do you have a basement with easy access for wood wood? Ask because a wood furnace ducted through the floor could be helpful. 10 cords is a lot. I get the ambiance of a wood stove in that space. I wouldn’t want to completely remove it. Just thinking if it economical heat you need that might be one option. Expense of making all these changes now with limited supply of stoves I just want to explore all your options as thinking is free.

Edit… venting is an issue.

 

[begreen]

I don't have a photo of the chimney top. I have to run right now, but will try to get some pictures of inside the flue tomorrow and post them. There's a side clean out hatch that I can open and take photos from there.

Chimney top or at least a high ground view of it might help if it shows the flue pipe sticking out.

 

[Newburnerwisconsin]

Another question... is there a reason you would recommend the Woodstock Ideal Steel, the Pacific Energy Summit, Lopi Liberty, Jotul F55, & Regency 3500 over the Chinook 30.2? I will look at the other models you recommended, but I am less familiar with the advantages of the hybrid stoves. I prefer steel to cast iron, as I have. worn through the cast iron stoves quickly with guests and friends coming in and overfiring them. thanks again.

I have the 3300 and I am very happy with it. Personally I would only consider the Osburn or Chinook. The Woodstock’s are very popular, however you are in your own as far as installation, maintenance and repairs. The other brands listed here with the exception of Blaze King all have had poor customer service issues in the past which is why I have avoided them. For heat, steel stoves are the best. The Blaze King will burn longer with less wood consumption but will require really dry wood and a little more maintenance and the non-cat Osburn. The Osburn will heat the room faster but will not burn as long. Both have excellent customer service so it really comes down to what your needs are. Both units have consumable parts that will need to be replaced over time. Be sure to check into the cost of a catalytic combustor for the chinook and be sure to have a spare one on hand. The 3300 is a “north-south” lloader meaning that the logs are loaded so they will not roll onto the glass of the stove. I don’t think you can go wrong with either one. Just weigh the pros and cons of each unit. We burn our 3300 from October to April/May and just love it.