Quadra fire 4100i cold air coming out bottom when not in use

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Psh2014

Member
Nov 4, 2014
5
USA
PROBLEM:
QUADRAFire 4100i (stove insert) cold air coming out front bottom when NOT in use.

- Chimney cleaner/installer says "stuff clean out box with insulation" down in the garage to stop this cold air from coming out.

- Others have said "seal the cleanout hatch door with duct tape"

This started happening last year, 2014 winter. I put my big fireplace gloves in front of the bottom grill area to stop the air from coming in when we're not home.

When we're running the stove, it's fine, great heat.
But when it's off and cooled, the cold air seeps in.

I've taped the clean out door hatch before, to no avail. I've not stuffed insulation inside the clean out door, yet. Though the chimney cleaner said this was OK and would help. The fireplace hasn't been used in 12 years. I've had the stove for 5 years.

The chimney is on the outside wall of the family room, which is above the 2-car garage. There's never been any problem keeping the room warm with baseboard oil, but having the 2nd heat source with the stove is great - it heats the whole bottom of the house a 2-story colonial.

The house was built in 1992 (22 years old), so fairly new. I've got an "external air inlet" for the furnace in the basement, and I think there's enough inside air in the house overall to let the chimney vent properly when in use. We usually don't get any smoke in the house, most times you can't even tell we have the stove burning, there's no smokey odor at all.

I'm hoping that echoing this issue on the forum members might jog loose someone else's experience with this. Cold air drops. So there must me some negative pressure pulling this in from the chimney - I'm just surprised the stove lets the air in through the bottom of the stove where the "grill" is on the QUADRAfire 4100i below the door windows.

I'd like to find a solution to this problem before it gets cold again.
Thanks much,

- PSH2014
 
You don't report the air having a smoky smell so I assume it is not coming down your chimney. Have you pulled the surround (faceplate) off and checked the back of the fireplace? Since it is an exterior chimney that may be really cold. Plus, do you have a damper sealing block-off plate installed? https://www.hearth.com/talk/wiki/make-a-damper-sealing-block-off-plate/ If not I would highly recommend it.
In any case, it may not be that cold air seeps in but that the masonry of your chimney is cold and cools down the air that is in the cavity. Insulating the back of the fireplace may help: https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/finally-got-around-to-insulating-my-fireplace.75755/
 
Mr. Grisu!
Thank you very much!
Excellent info.
You are a master database wizard.
I will pursue advice.
Thank you
PSH2014
 
You don't report the air having a smoky smell so I assume it is not coming down your chimney. Have you pulled the surround (faceplate) off and checked the back of the fireplace? Since it is an exterior chimney that may be really cold. Plus, do you have a damper sealing block-off plate installed? https://www.hearth.com/talk/wiki/make-a-damper-sealing-block-off-plate/ If not I would highly recommend it.
In any case, it may not be that cold air seeps in but that the masonry of your chimney is cold and cools down the air that is in the cavity. Insulating the back of the fireplace may help: https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/finally-got-around-to-insulating-my-fireplace.75755/

Mr Grisu!
OK - I got the damper sealing block-off plate installed last summer - and my stove still leaks cold air out the bottom when not in use.
Very frustrating.
My original stove shop installer-team put in the new pre-fab blocking plate, screwed in to the inner walls of the fireplace - it's one of those stainless steel looking plates that's adjustable, in two pieces, a universal - plus, they added a new insulation sheet on top of it at my request - I watched them do it. $500+, because it takes 2 guys to pull out the stove, plus parts.
Cold air still seeps in where the fan intake is.
With the crazy cold weather, I've simply decided to burn wood everyday.
I haven't challenged them again on this issue, yet.

QUESTION: Does the fan box have a "flap" or a stop-gap action to open/close when it's NOT running ?
I'm looking at the fan part diagram online, all I see is the tube-like unit that rotates, like a thin drum.
I'm wondering if there's a "flap" that opens to pull in the room air when it starts, and then closes afterwards ?
This problem did not occur for years after I got the stove, it just started doing it a few years ago (see original post).
The fan works fine once the stove gets going, no problems there, it draws room air in well, outputs warm flow.

My last guess is that somehow, perhaps, the inside of the fireplace brickwork has shifted/cracked leaving an air opening from the outside,
that bleeds in to the fireplace inside cavity.... ?? The house was built in 1992.

My hearth stone in front of the stove, and the face of the brick fireplace do certainly get cold in the cold weather, as does the stove face plate - since it's all one piece of masonry attached. But it warms up when running. I've got the same chimney cap up top as I've had since the stove was installed, and I have it checked and cleaned every year.

I'm wondering if I do need to pull out the stove and insulate the back and sides of my fireplace box.

Thanks for your thoughts.
PSH2014
 
My last guess is that somehow, perhaps, the inside of the fireplace brickwork has shifted/cracked leaving an air opening from the outside,
that bleeds in to the fireplace inside cavity.... ?? The house was built in 1992.
This was what I was wondering. It would be worth a close inspection.
 
UPDATE! 29AUG2019

Following MASS SAVE extra insulation and sealing up the house tighter last year, went through another winter with the cold air seeping only sightly from the bottom of the wood stove when not running it - stuffed the fireplace gloves in again to stop the cold air from coming in!
NOTICED stove not burning real hot like it used to, trouble keeping it going even with beautiful hard dry wood!

Discovery: MY HOUSE IS TOO TIGHT -and- I DON'T HAVE OUTSIDE AIR INCOMING FOR THE STOVE.

I got a new chimney cleaner guy in to asses everything, (21 years in the biz) and we discussed air being pulled from the basement, from any cracks in the house, window seams, door seams, etc. and I mentioned the MASS SAVE new insulation in the attic , and having to crack a window all the time just to reverse the air flow in the flu so I can start the fire and not have smoke come bellowing back in !
He said "YOUR'E PULLING ONLY INSIDE AIR. YOUR HOUSE IS TOO TIGHT. YOU NEED OUTSIDE AIR. CHECK IF YOUR 4100i WILL TAKE AN OUTSIDE AIR KIT."

So I am now on the hunt for an OAK for my Quadrafire 4100i and, to see if this is viable, -OR- if I'm dumping the Quadrafire after many happy seasons for a replacement that's got an updated OAK capability.
An OAK was not code, not required in Massachusetts when they installed this for me 10+ years ago, I think it is now based on what I've read here in this blog.

HOPE THIS HELPS SOMEONE ELSE !
Regards
PSH2014
 
Yes there is an outside air option for the 4100i. Check page 13 of the manual. The question is, how are you going to supply it to the insert?
 
Re: OUTSIDE AIR VENT ? WISEST ANSWER I FOUND ONLINE !

https://woodheat.org/the-outdoor-air-myth-exposed.html

“One can enjoy a wood fire worthily only when he warms his thoughts by it as well as his hands and feet.” Odell Shepherd


The Outdoor Air Myth Exposed
Outdoor combustion air was a good idea . . . until it was studied

Building codes in various jurisdictions in North America require that fireplaces, and in some cases wood stoves, be provided with a source of combustion air from outdoors. This mostly takes the form of a four inch diameter hole in an outside wall with a duct attached running to the stove or fireplace, connected either directly to the firebox or to a location where it can be heated by the fire before entering the room. Sometimes the air is just dumped somewhere in the room.

There seem to be three theories behind this outdoor air supply, depending on who is doing the explaining.
  1. The first is to replace the air sucked out of the house by the wood burner, based on the idea that houses are airtight and the wood burner will use up all the oxygen.
  2. The second is to reduce the risk of smoking into the room, even when the room is depressurized by a big fan like a kitchen range exhaust.
  3. The third is to save energy by using outdoor air rather than indoor air that has already been heated.
But it doesn't matter which theory you pick; none of the three stands up to scientific scrutiny. It turns out that the most consistently reliable place from which to take combustion air is the room where the appliance is installed. Forget about outdoor air supplies as a way to make wood stoves and fireplaces work better or be more efficient. If your local building code forces you to install outdoor air, you will have no choice, but be aware that it will not reliably improve the performance of your wood burning appliance or result in higher efficiency of the system.

The supposed benefits of outdoor air are not supported by research results.

The outdoor combustion air myth got started almost fifty years ago when safety and construction standards were written for mobile homes. Because they were small and factory-built, it was believed that mobile homes were air tight. As a result, all wood, oil and gas furnaces, stoves and fireplaces had to get their air from outdoors. Because these air supplies were invariably routed straight down into the ventilated crawl space under the mobile home, they didn't cause too many problems, so it was assumed that they actually worked.

In the 1980s, when large exhaust systems – like downdraft kitchen range exhausts – began to cause spillage from fireplaces and stoves in reasonably tight houses, a consensus quickly formed around the idea of bringing combustion air from outdoors, just as had been done in mobile homes for decades. Such certainty existed among housing technologists and regulatory authorities on the issue of outdoor combustion air that it was made mandatory in most building codes. Unfortunately, the decision to enforce mandatory outdoor air rules was made before research was done to investigate how they actually work.

The supposed benefits of outdoor air are not supported by research results. Laboratory and field reports have revealed that providing outdoor air is not a simple or effective cure for spillage, and that some designs could create a fire hazard. Two forms of outdoor air supply have been used: passive make-up type air supplies and direct-to-combustion chamber air supplies.

Passive make-up air supplies
[Hearth.com] Quadra fire 4100i cold air coming out bottom when not in use
Passive air inlets are nothing more than holes in the wall. Wind effects may force air into the house or suck it out of the house, depending on the location of the hole relative to wind direction.A passive make-up type air supply is one that is not connected directly to the fireplace or stove combustion chamber. Since it is connected only to the house environment and not to the appliance, it flows air into a house only when the pressure inside is lower than the pressure outdoors, since air only flows to zones of lower pressure. Passive air supplies don't make wood burners work better, they just make the house leakier.

Wind effects around the house also affect the direction and volume of flow through a passive inlet. If the weatherhood of a passive inlet is on the windward side of a building, wind pressure is likely to force air into the building; if the weatherhood is on the downwind side, the negative pressure zone created by the wind is likely to draw air out of the house, possibly depressurizing it.

[Hearth.com] Quadra fire 4100i cold air coming out bottom when not in use
Passive air inlets do not supply combustion air, but flow air only in response to pressure differences. Here, the flow direction depends on where in the house the passive hole is located.More importantly, it is misleading to think of the hole in the wall approach as supplying combustion air. In fact, passive air supplies provide air only in response to pressure differences. In cold weather, when temperature difference produces a pressure difference due to stack effect, if a passive make-up air supply is located below the neutral pressure plane of the house (and there is no wind effect and no exhaust systems are operating), air will flow into the house. If, on the other hand, the passive inlet is located above the house neutral pressure plane, air will flow out.

It is useful to keep in mind a key physical principle:
AIR FLOWS TO ZONES OF LOWER PRESSURE through any available opening.

The real problem with the passive make-up air strategy is that it does not reliably supply combustion air, nor does it reliably reduce combustion spillage. Under favorable conditions it may tip the balance of driving and adverse pressures in favor of successful venting. This is why some wood heating specialists have reported performance improvements after the installation of a passive supply. However, it is also possible for a passive supply to cause spillage if air is drawn out of the house into a low pressure zone caused by wind effects. A remedial strategy that only works sometimes, and that may make the problem worse, is not a good strategy. A passive make-up air supply is really nothing more than another uncontrolled leak in the house envelope. A leaky house envelope is no guarantee of successful venting.

Direct-to-combustion chamber outdoor air supplies
Outdoor air supplies connected directly to the stove or fireplace combustion chamber may seem like a good idea and it was once believed that a direct supply would isolate the combustion appliance from room pressure variations. However, two key findings from the research into outdoor air supplies serve as cautions against the widespread use of direct combustion air supplies.

1. Smoke leakage can occur, even when the appliance has tightly sealed doors. If an exhaust fan like a kitchen range hood depressurizes the room to a level greater than the draft produced in the chimney, combustion gases will leak from any available opening, such as gaps in gaskets and the joints between factory-built chimney sections (illustration below). Because air flows to zones of lower pressure, a tightly sealed combustion/venting system will spill a smaller volume of smoke into the room than a leakier system, but it will still leak unless it is perfectly sealed. Perfect sealing is not a realistic goal because it would be difficult to achieve at the time of construction or installation and is unlikely to be permanent.

[Hearth.com] Quadra fire 4100i cold air coming out bottom when not in use


2. Direct air supplies can reverse flow direction if the weatherhood is exposed to a negative pressure in excess of chimney draft (illustration below). Hot exhaust gas passing through a combustion air duct constitutes a potential fire hazard. The pressure effects of wind force around buildings can be far more powerful than the pressures produced by chimney draft. Chimney draft ranges from zero to about 50 Pa (0.2 in. water column) in normal residential installations, whereas high wind effects can produce pressures around houses up to 100 Pa.

[Hearth.com] Quadra fire 4100i cold air coming out bottom when not in use


Evidence of wind-induced reversals in combustion air ducts is becoming more common now that so many systems have been installed. When servicing systems with direct outdoor combustion air ducts, look for soot or staining inside the duct. If there is any evidence of reversal, disconnect the duct and plug the hole in the house envelope.

It has been suggested that a direct combustion air supply to a woodburning appliance would eliminate its air consumption impact on other chimney vented combustion equipment in the building. However, when their doors are closed, wood heating appliances exhaust comparatively little air from the dwelling. Wood stoves with gasketed doors consume in the range of 10 - 25 cubic feet per minute of air, which is a tiny amount of air, much less than an oil furnace, for example. Since the air consumption of a wood stove is so low, the risk of reversal of a ducted combustion air supply outweighs any advantage gained by bringing air from outdoors.

An open fireplace, in contrast, can exhaust such a large volume of air that it could affect the operation of, for example, a conventional gas-fired furnace or water heater. But direct combustion air supplies cannot effectively be connected to a fireplace without doors because insufficient pressure difference is created to drive the flow. In other words, there is no simple way to provide the large volume of air used by a fireplace by supplying it from outdoors, except perhaps by opening a window.

There may be circumstances in which a direct outdoor air supply is considered necessary. If it is decided to supply combustion air directly to a firebox, it should be done with full awareness that spillage is still likely if the room becomes seriously depressurized and, for safety reasons, steps should be taken to control temperatures on combustibles adjacent to the air supply duct in case wind effects lead to a flow reversal.

Despite the fact that it is enshrined in some building codes and its adherents are often vocally forceful, there is no scientific evidence to suggest that outdoor air supplies, either direct to the combustion chamber or indirect supplies to the living space, are reliable and effective remedial measures for combustion spillage from the appliance for which the supply is intended.

A stove vented by natural draft needs a reliable and unrestricted supply of combustion air. Since passive outdoor air supplies in reasonable sizes are ineffective and since direct combustion air supplies are unreliable and potentially dangerous, other options must be considered. The most obvious alternative is to take combustion air from inside the building.

Ideally, a stove operating on natural draft takes its combustion air from a neutral pressure environment so that the air supply is steady and consistent. Perfection would be an air supply provided at neutral pressure and with no resistance to flow. Wood burners consume combustion air in response to the amount of chimney draft produced by the heat of their own flue gases. A stove or fireplace will be fussy to start and likely to spill when it tries to get its combustion air from a seriously depressurized building. The extent of building depressurization is deducted from potential chimney draft, like this:

theoretical draft - depressurization = net draft

Building depressurization competes directly with chimney draft. If the chimney wins the competition, the flow direction is up (successful venting); if the fan causing the depressurization wins, the flow is down (spillage or backdrafting).

The advantage of taking combustion air directly from the room in which the stove or fireplace is installed is that the building envelope moderates the effect of wind on the air supply by damping out wind-induced pressure fluctuations. The pressure inside the house will still be affected by wind to some extent, but the flow resistance offered by the envelope tends to remove the peaks and valleys of high and low pressure caused by wind gusts.

It is sometimes assumed that taking air from outside through a duct saves energy because the stove doesn't use up indoor air and cause outdoor air to be drawn in through leaks to replace it. But the assumed heating deficit is so small as to be insignificant. The average air consumption of a modern wood heater is in the range of 10 - 25 cfm, which is very small compared to the natural leakage rate of houses. Building scientists say that the air in a house must be exchanged at least every three hours, or one-third of an airchange per hour, to control moisture from cooking and washing and to manage odors. One third of an air change in a 1500 square foot house is 4000 cubic feet, or 66 cfm. Note that this is the absolute minimum air change for healthy living and that most houses older than 20 years have natural leakage rates far higher than this in winter. So the air consumption of a wood stove is a tiny part of a much larger exchange of air between the house and outdoors.

The main disadvantage of taking air from inside the house is that the pressure environment can be adversely affected by powered exhausts. However, depressurization caused by powered exhaust flows is predictable and manageable, unlike the more random and unpredictable effects of wind on outdoor air supplies. The worst-case indoor air pressure environment can be measured using the house pressure test procedure, and can be controlled either by limiting exhaust flows or by installing a powered make-up air system.

In general, therefore, wood stoves and fireplaces that are vented by natural chimney draft should draw the air for combustion from the room in which they are located. Where necessary the indoor air pressure should be controlled to minimize depressurization.

JG
 
A simple link will suffice. That is the WoodHeat.org position. They are usually correct, but not always. There have been long discussions about this in past threads.
https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/cons-to-having-an-o-a-k.37589/#post-478522
You might find this article helpful:
(broken link removed)

The point is the room is going to need air to replace that consumed by combustion. Negative draft is a serious issue that can be life-threatening. It needs to be addressed if the plan is to continue burning. Have you consulted with the MASS SAVE people about installing an HRV in this room?