School me on efficiency please!

[TomMcDonald]

Hi experts.

I'm in the process of researching stoves and am wondering about how important efficiency is in the hierarchy of stove variables.

I'm looking specifically at the Heatilator WS22 vs the Drolet 1800.

The Heatilator has an average efficiency of 82%, while the Drolet's average efficiency is 63%.

The two stoves have similar sized fireboxes and designs but looks like the Drolet used thiccer steel.

How does efficiency affect real life performance?
Is the Heatilator going to use 20% less wood over time to produce the same heat?
Will the Drolet store and radiate more heat over a burn cycle due to thicker steel construction?
What is it about the Heatilator that makes it so much more efficient?

Note: efficiency figures were taken from the website of the independent tester (https://australiansolidfueltesting.com/) but the Drolet isn't listed so I used the figures for the Osburn 2000, which could be slightly different.

Thanks.

Tom.

 

[webby3650]

Don’t get too caught up in the numbers. It has to be very efficient in order to sell on the open market. So clean in fact that you will not be able to tell any difference between them without specialized equipment.
It comes down to features and firebox design at this point.

 

[begreen]

These are pretty similar stoves in many ways. It sounds like two different testing types are being used to explain "efficiency". The Drolet has very recent published metrics to meet the 2020 EPA standards. The WS18 was not continued here but it tested with an HHV at 74.4% which is very close to the Drolet. The LLV efficiency for the WS18 is 80.4% while it is 74%. In practical use, I don't think you could tell the difference when running the stove.

 

[appointed EPA deviant]

These are pretty similar stoves in many ways. It sounds like two different testing types are being used to explain "efficiency".

So how does the avg consumer judge the scientific EPA dictated efficiency?

 

[begreen]

So how does the avg consumer judge the scientific EPA dictated efficiency?

By different testing I meant for different countries. The OP is in Australia. Europe has a different method of testing too. That's where testing methods and outcomes get a bit harder to compare.

 

[bholler]

So how does the avg consumer judge the scientific EPA dictated efficiency?

For us customers using stoves tested for us sale all of that data is readily available

 

[webby3650]

So how does the avg consumer judge the scientific EPA dictated efficiency?

The more government involvement there is, the harder it is to understand. All these numbers just don’t relay into the real world. The end user might get a cleaner burning stove, but not durable, reliable or as easy to operate.

 

[begreen]

To clarify, he is looking at the WS-18-AU model. Their brochure claims 86% heating efficiency but that is not qualified.

The more government involvement there is, the harder it is to understand. All these numbers just don’t relay into the real world. The end user might get a cleaner burning stove, but not durable, reliable or as easy to operate.

Both of these stoves are conventional tube stoves with a long history and track record. With a single air control they are very simple to operate.
The benefit of the 2020 EPA regs is that the stove mfgs are now required to publish the actual testing papers. This cuts through a lot of marketing BS.

 

[bholler]

The more government involvement there is, the harder it is to understand. All these numbers just don’t relay into the real world. The end user might get a cleaner burning stove, but not durable, reliable or as easy to operate.

So are you claiming EPA regulations have hurt the overall quality of stoves? I mean yes there are a few turds with every step. But overall stoves have improved exponentially due to the EPA regulations. And we havnt seen the doom and gloom predicted by many from most of the 2020 stoves

 

[begreen]

If one digs deeply the test results for the WS-18 are discoverable. Though the claim is for 86% "heating" efficiency, this is what the test report says about overall efficiency.

HRL Technology Report # HCMG/14/027

The Drolet 1800 Australian testing showed an average overall efficiency of 64% in the manual. I am still digging for the actual test report.

 

[appointed EPA deviant]

By different testing I meant for different countries. The OP is in Australia. Europe has a different method of testing too. That's where testing methods and outcomes get a bit harder to compare.

OK thanks for the answer. Watching TV and heating my home with wood fuel certainly was not as involved in complicated details as when I was 20 YO.....LOL

 

[bholler]

OK thanks for the answer. Watching TV and heating my home with wood fuel certainly was not as involved in complicated details as when I was 20 YO.....LOL

No but the stoves really do work much better than the old ones. A bit more complicated and a bit less durable. But still not bad when considering the advantages

 

[begreen]

Hmmm, comparing the North American manual to the Australian manual for the Drolet 1800 I see they are not quite the same stoves. The Australian model has a 1" deeper firebox. That is a nice difference. It means that full 16" splits can be loaded N/S without problem.

 

[begreen]

A bit more complicated and a bit less durable.

Some may be that way. but I have not found this to be universally true. There were some old stoves that may have been built out of armor steel, but they still warped baffles, and had door handles seized and break or wear out along with the hinge pins. When they introduced baffles, a lot of them warped after years of use. I don't know how long the parts will last on our stove, but so far the expense of ownership has been minimal.

 

[webby3650]

Some may be that way. but I have not found this to be universally true. There were some old stoves that may have been built out of armor steel, but they still warped baffles, and had door handles seized and break or wear out along with the hinge pins. When they introduced baffles, a lot of them warped after years of use. I don't know how long the parts will last on our stove, but so far the expense of ownership has been minimal.

Most of the pre 2020 stoves have been very durable for us. Except hearthstone..
I’m very skeptical of the 2020 Jotul F-500. The first question I asked was about the replacement cost. No one at Jotul was able to answer the question…
So far all the parts we’ve replaced were under warranty at least.

 

[bholler]

Most of the pre 2020 stoves have been very durable for us. Except hearthstone..
I’m very skeptical of the 2020 Jotul F-500. The first question I asked was about the replacement cost. So far all the parts we’ve replaced were under warranty at least.

Yeah like I said some turds. I don't like the regency cascade line. We havnt seen durability issues but the cat really is just being used as a filter and adding no heat output

 

[begreen]

Most of the pre 2020 stoves have been very durable for us. Except hearthstone..

Hmm and VC, and some Vogelzangs. Some Drolets had welded baffles that made them real hard to repair. This changed around 2012? And many of the early EPA stoves had steel tubes instead of stainless. They burned out pretty regularly until the mid 90s when everyone went to stainless.

 

[webby3650]

Hmm and VC, and some Vogelzangs. Some Drolets had welded baffles that made them real hard to repair. This changed around 2012? And many of the early EPA stoves had steel tubes instead of stainless. They burned out pretty regularly until the mid 90s when everyone went to stainless.

We quit selling VC after 40 years or so because of durability issues, obviously never sold vogels. Lopi switched to ss tubes after some time. Something that should be mentioned is how affordable replacement parts are from Lopi. They deserve a nod for durability and affordable replacement parts. Also their availability all through this plandemic.

 

[TomMcDonald]

Hmmm, comparing the North American manual to the Australian manual for the Drolet 1800 I see they are not quite the same stoves. The Australian model has a 1" deeper firebox. That is a nice difference. It means that full 16" splits can be loaded N/S without problem.

They may publish the dimensions without firebricks. Not sure about the NA version.

 

[TomMcDonald]

If one digs deeply the test results for the WS-18 are discoverable. Though the claim is for 86% "heating" efficiency, this is what the test report says about overall efficiency.
View attachment 306788
HRL Technology Report # HCMG/14/027

The Drolet 1800 Australian testing showed an average overall efficiency of 64% in the manual. I am still digging for the actual test report.

Thanks. How did you find this snippet? Did you google the report number?

 

[begreen]

We quit selling VC after 40 years or so because of durability issues, obviously never sold vogels. Lopi switched to ss tubes after some time. Something that should be mentioned is how affordable replacement parts are from Lopi. They deserve a nod for durability and affordable replacement parts. Also their availability all through this plandemic.

Yes indeed. This was just pointing out that over time there have been issues with multiple stoves. PE had an issue with small cracks radiating from the door opening on the Summits for a couple of years. Quadrafire and Lopi had some issues with secondary manifold burnouts at one point. Both responded well. I think you pointed out a crap design with a Lopi (Cape Cod?). Englander had door warping the larger 50SSW02. chit happens and how the mfg. deals with it is what makes the difference.

 

[begreen]

Thanks. How did you find this snippet? Did you google the report number?

Yes. The report # was listed on the stove label. My advice is to get the stove you like at the best price possible.

 

[webby3650]

Yes indeed. This was just pointing out that over time there have been issues with multiple stoves. PE had an issue with small cracks radiating from the door opening on the Summits for a couple of years. Quadrafire and Lopi had some issues with secondary manifold burnouts at one point. Both responded well. I think you pointed out a crap design with a Lopi (Cape Cod?). Englander had door warping the larger 50SSW02. chit happens and how the mfg. deals with it is what makes the difference.

The cape cod was beautiful, total crap design though. My biggest gripe is that they wouldn’t listen to any of my feedback. Made me feel like I’m the only one that had a failure. That simply wasn’t true. It’s discontinued, seems odd…

 

[Queequeg From Rokovoko]

I would not get too wrapped up in the efficiency chase, There are a lot of variables in EFFICACY not so much efficiency. One log will have a finite amount of BTUs in it. Some of those BTUs go to vaporizing the moisture. What really matters is how many BTUs you get into your living space out of the wood you’re burning. Some (also) are going to go up the chimney, as they should. Look at keeping your flue exit temp high enough to keep your chimney clean. What’s the moisture content of your wood? How hot is the room where the stove is? Most stoves run with a better efficacy when run hot. Get some fans to scrub off heat, move it to other rooms through out the house, ….

My Legend III kicks out the heat. I think I bought too much stove, but I am getting the hang of it now after almost a year of operation. There are four things you have to be aware of.; 1, Wood quality, Dry/not dry. This will determine air in. 2…and damper setting, 3, What is the desired temperature inside? Can you move heat throughout your house? (fans) 4, What is the temperature outside your house? Don't need as much heat if it's warmer outside. Watch the surface temperature of your stove. ...the stove pipe and flue. Any stove can be as “efficient” as any other stove. Just have to manage BTUs in for BTUs out.

 

[TomMcDonald]

Yes. The report # was listed on the stove label. My advice is to get the stove you like at the best price possible.

Looks like that is an old report from when the stove was tested previously. It was recently retested. Looking at getting the updated report from quadrafire.